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Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2468
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:03 pm: | 
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Finally got around to swapping out my stock 380cc injectors (yellow) for some 440cc JDM JZA80 Supra TT ones (grey).
I had the replacement ones ultrasonically and chemically cleaned - then flow tested, impedance tested and certified - about $150 all up for the set. Back to back comparison showed 15% better flow and impedance exactly the same.
Penrith Toyota supplied me with the 2 sets of o-rings and set of upper and lower insulators.
As Ben had suggested previously, it is indeed very possible to remove/replace injectors without removal of the intake manifold.
What I did have to remove to the open up the injector area was:
throttle body, cruise/accelerator cables and stay, idle control valve and plumbing, cam sensors connectors, intake air temp sensor connector and boost/vacuum lines
I left the fuel rail in place and just removed the injector retainers and there was enough room to slide out/in the injectors.
I'd strongly suggest replacing all 12 o-rings and 12 insulators, particularly the ones on the tip that are deformed and remain in the injector rail - use a short length of light gauge stiff wire to 'fish' them out and count them carefully!
Use a light smearing of vaseline on the o-rings to allow them to slide into place without rolling or nicking the rubber surface.
Allow at least 2 hours to dissasemble, remove, replace and reassemble everything.
I was anticipating doughy idle and light throttle response but was very pleasantly surprised at the ECU's resolution and control of the 15% larger injectors ; much better off boost response than the 100000km+ 'dirty' stockies and very smooth takeoff at very light throttle openings - probably worthwhile removing, cleaning and replacing your stockies alone for some hidden rwkw. |
Andrew Meiers
ALSC Junkie
Username: Acmtt
Post Number: 679
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 8:40 am: |
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This is a good simple explanation of injectors that i thought might be useful to others.
Impedance
Injector impedance describes the electrical resistance of the solenoid windings. These are usually grouped in two categories:
Low- 1.7 to 3.0 ohms (Peak and Hold Driver/Injectors)
These type of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. They are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, and are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. They are primarily used in aftermarket high performance systems. Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. The Peak current is the amount required to quickly jolt the injector open, and then the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for as long as the ECU commands. These require the extra kick from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate. With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but due to the its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. How high? Using Ohms’s Law we can calculate the current rating (12v/2 ohms = 6 amps). This is substantial current flow and a Saturated Injector cannot handle it. The drivers also come in two values; 4 amp peak/1 amp hold, and 2 amp peak/0.5 amp hold.. Even though 6 amps may be available to operate the injector, the maximum it is allowed to reach is 2 or 4 amps, depending on the driver’s current limit.
High- 10 to 16 ohms (Saturated Circuit Drivers/Injectors)
Most domestic OE production EFI systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components nice and cool for long life. Conversely, a downfall of a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.
From.
http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm |
Tristan Hopes
ALSC Regular
Username: Gt_tt
Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 11:08 am: |
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What happens with injectors is when they are cleaned, the injector baskets are removed (if possible) easier with top mount then with the side mount soarer units, then they are cleaned ultrasonically in injector cleaning solution.. some are good others are bad. We use ACA cleaning solution, and find it is better than most on the market. Then the injectors are flowed on a flowbench and backflushed (by pulsing them). You can also pulse them during cleaning ultrasonically, we found that this is the best method to clean them although some injector companies would have you believe that it will ruin the injectors on a certain pulsewidth, this can only happen if they are left 'open circuit'. I know ultrasonic machines arent everyday 'off the tree' items, but if you know someone who has one, be their best friend drop around, drop those injectors in and maybe some jewelry that needs cleaning too - it comes up a treat! (Make sure you dont leave the injectors on the bottom of the tank, because it will wreak them, but you can keep them semi submerged, which is good.. and by all means dont touch the bottom of the tank when it is on, or it will shatter your bones.. and it feels so weird touching anything in the tank (like picking the injectors up) while the tank is on because it gives you weird tingles which is freaky! |
Emanuel Spinola (Manny)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 7:39 pm: |
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Here you go ...
http://soarercentral.com/alsc-forum/messages/6/4285.html?SundayMarch0220030436pm
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Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2808
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 9:02 pm: |
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Allan
For the US 2JZGTE 550cc injectors, I used 6 RS Component 50W 10R Alloy cased resistors purchased here
I made a custom mounting tray and fitted them as below
The stock wiring of the resistors is as below
The 2JZGTE Supra wiring of the SFI resistors and 550cc injectors is as below
You need to modify the Soarer injector circuit and wire them as follows
To achieve this, you need to separate the Black/Orange power wire to each injector by splicing into the injector connector as they all form a common connection along the loom inside the intake manifold - as a result, doing it at the ECU isn't possible as only the negative switching wire goes back to the ECU, not the power feed side. I understand that fitting the resistors to the switching side will have a detrimental impact on latency in controlling the injector solenoids.
To simpify breaking the innaccesible loom, I used a spare injector harness to make life easier - for each injector, I removed the existing positive feed pin from the injector connector (with the black/orange wire), insulated/tapped it and tucked it inside the individual injector loom insulator. I then inserted the pin from the spare loom and ran that to the resistor bank. A common power feed from the existing feed was then terminated on the other end of each resistor completing the circuit.
My preferance all along was to source and use a US/UK Spec MKIV Supra Toyota factory SFI Resistor pack but they are not easy to find, are not cheap new ($325.00) and time was not on my side, so I fitted the above resistor packs temporarily.
This is not a job for the faint hearted or for someone with little electrical experience as the realiability and safety of the modification is essential.
I'm also not aware of anyone succesfully using 550's on a factory ECU, so it's difficult to gauge what sort of success the ECU will have at controlling the higher flowing injectors in closed loop.
Good luck |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1870
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 1:55 am: |
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Good to see you fitted the resistors to some aluminium. That type of resistor does need a heatsink!
You can also get that type of resistor in 10, 15 and 25 watt ratings.
Without a heatsink, the 10 watt resistor is only rated at 5.5 watts the 15 watt is rated at 8 watts, and the 25 watt resistor is rated at 12.5 watts. The resistor Manny used is rated at 20 watts without a heatsink.
Each of the above are physically smaller in length than the 50 watt resistors manny used. (in fact, they scale to the power rating) Each resistor will only dissipate roughly 10..12 watts maximum in this application. I guess they average to less than half of that normally though, since the injector is "normally" on for less than half the time.
Radio Spares Part Numbers for 10 Ohm resistors:-
10 Ohm 10 Watt 159-900 Aus$4.07 each.
10 Ohm 15 Watt 159-764 Aus$4.00 each.
10 Ohm 25 Watt 159-764 Aus$5.92 each.
Well done Manny!
(I would probably use the 25 watt resistors, with or without a heatsink. (don't bolt them all together without some kind of heatsink though!) If you elect to use the 10 or 15 watt resistors, they really should be mounted on a heatsink. (For this style of resistor anyway.)
It strikes me that there are an awful lot of pages like Manny's above that really should be moved into a "useful information" repository, either on the forum, or on the main website. (If on the forum, the area would be "read only", nobody would have posting privilidges on those pages.)
Reepa, what do you think?
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Robert Hayden
ALSC Moderator
Username: The_boss
Post Number: 866
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 9:42 pm: |
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Manny, why did you have to use all those resisters. Can't you just whack the 440's in? |
Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2482
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
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440s you can just whack in but 550s if you do without the resistors you will end up nuking the injector drivers in the ECU when you try to start it I'm told.
The US Supras run resistors with these injectors from the factory for this very reason. |
Robert Hayden
ALSC Moderator
Username: The_boss
Post Number: 870
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:50 pm: |
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Bloody Shom. Have to kick his ass for not telling me that!! No wonder the bugger ran off to England.
Better email me the full size wiring file for the FAQ area (and for my personal use naturally)!! |
Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:30 am: |
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lol, I'm positive there was no mallice or deceipt on Shom's part - he wouldn't hurt a fly 
Not for the feint hearted this wiring - you need to split the wiring loom that runs in the middle of the intake manifold or better still, run a second loom to one terminal of each injector.
Unfortunately there are only 7 wires going to the injectors - a single power source wire spliced inside the loom to all the injectrs and the 6 switching wires - would of been nice if there were 12 wires like in the US MKIV Supra.
Took me a good 8 hours to do the wiring even with good preparation - I'd rather do the 440s a dozen times than the 550s once! A second loom should cut it down to an hour if you can source the pins for the injectors.
I've been told that the resistor must go on the non switched side of the injector and not on the ECU side otherwise the resistor introduces unacceptable lag to injector timing - Harry may be able to shed some light on this. It's how Toyota did it from the factory on the US MKIV Supra, so it backs up what I've been told.
That is the full blown up diagram above - the rest of the page is irrelevant for the injectors.
Have you already got 550cc injectors ready to fit? You know you can get 550cc injectors with correctly matched impedance which won't require resistors - the US Supra ones are just relatively readily available and relatively inexpensive in comparison. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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I wrote a big treatise here last night. But, there is a flakey router between the Optus network and the forum network, and when I went to post, the forum was again gone Anyway.
1: Resistor can go on either side of the injector, it makes no electrical difference to the ECU.
2: The way Manny shows the wiring is in fact the most logical way to do it (uses less wires!) Putting the resistors between the +12 supply and the injector means one side of all six resistors can be connected together and join to the provided power wire. (B-OR in Mannies diagram. )Then the individual 6 leads from the other end of the resistors can go to what used to be the direct EFI +12V feed on each injector.
see attached PDF, it might help to understand what I mean!
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Robert Hayden
ALSC Moderator
Username: The_boss
Post Number: 879
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:02 am: |
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There are a few people running 440's with no ECU issues. Shom wrote this morning from the UK to confirm that 440's don't need additional resisters, and that only the 550's need them. What's the story. So much conflicting information. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 12:07 pm: |
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Rob, as I have said before, I have not seen a TT ECU, but I can only guess that they have used similar transistors to the V8 ECU in the injector driver department. The V8 transistors are actually good for 6..8 amps, but only run at slightly under 2 amps. I would not be at all adverse to run these at up to 4..5 amps if i needed to. I can oly assume the TT is much the same. ... Thus the Stock ECU should not blow up (at least, straight away) with injectors that have a DC resistance of down to about 2 Ohms. (WARNING: The ECU will get a LOT hotter inside by doing this!)
From memory, the 440's are actually around 4.0 Ohms, which means they will draw no more than about 3.0..3.75 amps each. The original injectors (13..14 Ohms) are in the 0.9.. 1.1 amp region.
So the 440's are somewhere between what is considered to be Low impedance and High impedance injectors. This is why the ECU hasn't become a genie, and let the smoke out of the box.
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Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 12:56 pm: |
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Rob
Where have you seen anyone suggest resistors are required for the 440cc injectors? They're an exact match for the stock 360cc impedance.
Resistors are ONLY required for US/Euro 2JZGTE 550cc injectors whenb running a stock ECU or Power FC. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1684
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 1:13 pm: |
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There you go! from the fingers of someone who knows. Manny, what is the resistance of the 550's?
A peaking capacitor as I suggested above could very well improve the injector performance dramatically! However, to find a capacitor (500 .. 1000uf) with a ripple current rating beyond 1 amp is proving difficult! (There are some ... but they are big, and they are expensive!) |
Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2493
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 1:24 pm: |
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550s were ~4 Ohms and the 440s were ~13 Ohms from memory.
The factory SFI Resistor pack for the US TT Supra with the 550cc injectors is 6 x 6 Ohms. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 1:56 pm: |
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If your running 550's at the moment, would you like to try the capacitors I mentioned. I guestimate an improvement of 1 to 1.5 milliseconds improvement on the opening time of the injectors will be seen. (How this translates to the bumometer though, I cannot begin to guess!)
Currently I see someone that has something that will probably last a year, and total cost of the caps is only $5.40 easy to solder around your current 25 watt resistors as well. |
Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2496
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 7:46 pm: |
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Harry
I don't run 550s anymore as I exceeded their flow capability at 20psi. I'm running 650cc units without resistors at saner duty cycles.
I've also the ability to adjust opening times with lag compensation (0.01 sec increments) through the Power FC.
Altering opening time/lag compesnation had little effect in everyday driving. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1734
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 3:07 pm: |
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I just discovered that the 1JZ engine ECU fires the injectors as three groups of two injectors. It appears only the 3 litre 6 cylinder engine has true sequential injection!
Consequently, it would be possible to reduce the circuit to only 3 resistors. AKA the 7Mxxx engine resistor box, which only has 3 resistors.
The resistor values are different than what Manny used (4.7 Ohms required, not 10 Ohms)
Still need at least 25 Watt resistors!
Each resistor would the wire to two injectors. IE: from the battery side through one resistor, output of which goes to inectors 3 and 5 on Pin 2. (Pin 2 on each injector is the original "battery" feed line.)
The injector groups are 3 and 5, 2 and 4, 3 and 6.
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Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 4:09 pm: |
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The following shows the stock TT injector arrangement, and then how it "looks" using 3 resistors.
Stock Soarer TT injector Wiring
Modified wiring for "Low Impeadance" injectors
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Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 2786
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:03 pm: |
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Just as an update for anyone else doing the 550cc injectors and resistors
1. Make sure you tap into the Black/Orange loom feed wire not cut it completely. This same wire supplies power to coils, igniter etc so you're engine won't run well if you cut completely.
2. Consider unplugging the fuel pump connector whilst the car is idling to let it run out of fuel to de-pressurise the fuel rail, otherwise you'll end up with a cylinder full of fuel when you pull and injector and will get hydraulic locking when trying to start later as well as contaminating your engine oil with fuel.
3. Shave/remove the opposite locking tab on the 550cc injector to fit in the factory injector loom connector. |
Harry Lemmens
ALSC Moderator
Username: Hrl
Post Number: 1830
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 1:39 am: |
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Ha Ha ha, I just noticed the injectors have a wrong translation on them. (Interior light, my arse!) |
Rob Andreacchio
ALSC Administrator
Username: Reepa
Post Number: 4525
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 1:47 am: |
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hehehhe.... i saw that too.... |
Emanuel Spinola
ALSC Diehard
Username: Manny
Post Number: 3032
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 2:04 pm: |
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Replacement TT sidefeed injector (OEM or aftermarket) o-rings/insulators part numbers:-
12x 23291-75010 Injector Vibration Insulator
6x 90301-14006 Injector O-ring # 1
6x 90301-17007 Injector O-ring # 2
they're listed for the 1JZ-GTE ; also common with many locally delivered vehicles ie Corolla, MR2, Hiace, Celica etc with the 4AGE, 3SGTE, 1RZE, 2TZFE etc as well as the 2JZ-Gx Supras/Aristos |
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LowHighZ_inj.pdf