Author |
Message |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual
Posts: 1437 Reg: 04-2006
| Actually, I might still have ally reinforcement bars front and rear in mine also. Might have to check. Really can't see a need for the one in the rear. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1428 Reg: 07-2005
| If youre still using the stock truck battery you can save a good 10+ kg with a lightweight one. I have an Optima Red Top, its in the stock position but as its about 1/2 the size of the original i had to make up a custom bracket. If it wasnt for the fact i made it for the road car i wouldve just chucked the thing in the boot and run some cabling to the front I think i might also have a look at removing the rear reinforcement bar too |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual
Posts: 1441 Reg: 04-2006
| When I get home I might have a look for one. Off the top of your head, how much are they? I'll probably put it in the left rear seat location. Should be about the same distance from the starter motor as the stock position, and better weight distribution. Also help when I wire in a kill switch into the dash panel, as it is sort of on the way. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1429 Reg: 07-2005
| Theyre not cheap.... i got mine for around $240 and that was a good price... Still they are a very good battery, mine has been run dead flat (by idiot mechanics...) and still outperforms and has lasted longer than the original battery that was in the car Being a track car your battery electrical requirements are considerably less so there are other (cheaper) options... i think some people have used motorbike batteries or sealed lead/acid cells out of UPS (backup power supplies) |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1430 Reg: 07-2005
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Damian Ware
DieHard Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 896 Reg: 10-2005
| Thanks Ben, looks like the bulk of the relative easy to do work has been done. Other than a light weight battery, lighter cooler and exhaust there isn't much you can easily do from this point onwards. Have you thought about lighter wheels and possibly a lighter brake setup although these may lead to negative effects. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual
Posts: 1446 Reg: 04-2006
| The manaray sports I have are 9.9kg each. The supras are (from memory) 10.1kg. To get some significantly lighter wheels we are talking between three and four thousand bucks. That's a lot of cash for 3-4 kg per wheel. For that sort of money you can buy full carbon fibre doors and lexan windows and save nearly 40kg. I am not that serious. My focus on weight saving is mostly due to the fact it is bloody good value for money. I don't think I can find a lighter cooler that will still work, either. I am fiddling with the idea of swapping exhausts from the road car to track car. There is a lot of stainless steel in the track car exhaust, and it has two resonators much like the factory system. On the road car it is simply 3" pipe, cat, 3" pipe, split, twin 2.5" Trust straight through mufflers. Only the mufflers are stainless. It is not a straight forward job though, as the road car system is custom and has different flanges at different points. Of course, I'd have to put a cat on for the road car as well and get rid of the one for the track car. |
Damian Ware
DieHard Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 897 Reg: 10-2005
| Fair enough, very true about the weight saving there are many gains in efficiency because of it. You have already done well and you have considerable savings already. I didn't realise the supra rims were so light. I have a set and by feel they certainly don't feel that light and they are not as light as another set of rims with similar tyres I have here. As to reducing unsprung weight I believe the general rule of thumb is that it is equivilant to saving twice as much sprung weight in the end performance ie lap time results. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual
Posts: 1448 Reg: 04-2006
| I don't have an untyred supra rim to confirm that weight. I think that is what the 17x8 rim weighed before I put tyres on it. The Manaray sports are confirmed at 9.9kg. I have put the second bent rim in to get straightened. I aim to clean them up and repaint them in the standard silver. They only just clear the TT calipers, but not on the front 'face', around the circumference. Unfortunately the place where the spokes join the rim is directly in line with the caliper. I am sure there is more weight savings to be had. Some one will come up to me and say "why have you still got..." and I'll have a 'ohhh, duh' moment. Pretty much like the rear alloy bar. I just didn't think of it/realise it was there until I saw Andrews's picture. I am waiting to see where I end up living next year to decide if I need to upgrade the brakes. It seems that second hand supra and celsior brake kits are going for 2/3 the cost of some of the aftermarket new kits. I'll have to weigh up the pros and cons before committing to the spend. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 238 Reg: 06-2008
| Mate for a battery try Pulse: http://www.pulsehyper.com.au/phb900.htm Or Odyssey: http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/store.php?crn=309 http://www.extremebatteries.com.au/ http://www.odysseybatteries.com/ |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1496 Reg: 04-2006
| I have just got back from a stint overseas. The car is entered in a Circuit Club track day at Oran Park Grand Prix circuit. I've only ever driven the short (south) track there, and last time there wasn't official timing. I'm looking forward to it, seeing as I haven't driven in ages. Plus, I think the dog leg is the most exiting corner I've ever driven. The car needs to come out of storage, and I have an old RSM series one to put in to defeat speed cut. It also has a lap timer according to the literature that cam with it, so I'll have to see if I can use that feature as well. Hopefully all I need to do is change fluids and the ole girl will be good to go. I have been toying with the idea of a rear wing to help with the scary tendancy the car has of letting go on high speed corners. This may get put on hold as there is a really nice mig welder that wants me to buy it for my birthday. |
Scott Casey
TryHard nsw soarer v8
Posts: 237 Reg: 02-2008
| Turn back the hsd shock dampener 2 or 3 settings on the rear. Turn up the hsd shock dampener 2 or 3 settings on the front. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1507 Reg: 04-2006
| I have played with the settings a fair bit. I have been running the rears 2 or 3 clicks softer than the front, but in all reality, the spring rate remains the same, so it's is only the damping that's softer. It usually lets go on high speed sweepers(ie coming down the hill) or the kink at Wakefield. Both are fast but constant speed. There is no real acceleration/delceleration to load up the suspension. The situation isn't helped by the fact that the lions share of discarded weight has come from the rear half of the car either. The car feels very light and nervous in the rear. It has full stock undertrays generating some downforce at the front, and nothing at the rear. The Rx-7 was the exact opposite, the front used to get very light in the front at high speed. It had a deep spoiler, but no undertrays, and a smallish rear wing. Very skittish up around 200kph. |
Damian Ware
DieHard Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 940 Reg: 10-2005
| Easiest thing to try is adjusting the sway bars set the front a bit harder and the rear a bit softer. You may need to reduce steering a touch by reducing front grip and or increase weight balance to the rear. You have stripped a lot of weight and a lot of that reduction is towards the rear end of the car. I would thinking about moving the battery to the boot and if possible a lighter FMIC. You can also try changing ride height as well. I would raise the front up a touch and lower the rear. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1510 Reg: 04-2006
| I might try some of those at Oran Park. Last time I was there, the car was a joy to drive (southern track), with none of the high speed cornering issues I have at Wakefield. I'll have to look back and see what settings I ran there last time. I think the rear bar was on the softest setting, but the dampers ended up same all round. I want to move the battery, but just need to get around to it. I have also delayed removing the rear alloy bumper support for the same reason. Perhaps this is a good thing, as I only seem to spear off the track backwards anyway. I picked up the car today and fitted the series 1 RSM. The car now happily runs all the way up to 265kph on the stands with no limiter. I also picked up the second repaired wheel, so I now have four round wheels. If I get the chance, I'll transfer the semis across so I can get some pics of the car with the same wheels all round. I'm thinking of painting them first though. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 248 Reg: 06-2008
| What are you doing about tyre pressures Ben? They can make a big difference to the handling. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1512 Reg: 04-2006
| I usually try and get them so that they are 32 psi hot. I have had them down at 29-30 and it was a bit average, all over the shop really. When I first had them I was up around 36psi(as I didn't know any better), and I walked it down until 32, which felt good. This seems to coincide with the general forum opinions for semi slicks. What are you thoughts? Maybe I just want a big GT wing 'cos they look cool... I painted the Manarays this weekend. Gave them a full covering of "wheel silver". Hopefully I can get the semi transferred across, so that I can run the car with four of the same wheels this weekend. I have all but given up on finding a pair of 17x8 Supra rims so I can run them front and rear. I have been keeping my eye out on ebay and the forums for a good cheap set of wheels to clear big brakes. Every thing in my price range for sale seems to be staggered fit, which I want to avoid due to the tyres I already have. I wont be able to keep the Manarays if I go to bigger brakes. They are 17x7.5 +46 offset. Without a spacer there is about half a mm clearance of the TT caliper. With a spacer there is maybe 3-4 mm clearance. The issue is the overlap where the spokes meet the rim. It may be possible to take a small amount of material out, but I would want to talk to an expert first. I'm not sure how bad it would be with celsior/supra 4 pots. I'll probably have to do something about the brakes sooner or later, as the front pads have uneven wear. The lead edge of the pad is more worn than the trailing edge on the piston(inboard) side. The Slider(outer) side has nice even wear. The question is: do I go all out on a set of aftermarket brakes, take an intermediate setup and buy Supra/celsior 4 pots, or upgrade to slotted RDA rotors for $200 from Dave C? The last option is cheaper in many ways, as I can keep the Manarays, and there is less initial cost. The down side is if/when I go back to Darwin I'll be wanting the biggest brakes I can squeeze under the car due to the heat, and the nature of Hidden Valley. There are a few really big stops up there. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 250 Reg: 06-2008
| I'm not sure exactly what pressures you should be running mate, but my point was that you can fiddle with tyre pressures in the same way you can fiddle with suspension settings, and they don't need to be the same all round. Purely as an example, check out our tyre pressures when we were running the Corolla: Eastern Creek: RF: 17psi LF: 20psi RR: 19psi LR: 19psi Oran Park South RF: 19psi LF: 20psi RR: 21psi LR: 21psi Oran Park GP RF: 19psi LF: 20psi RR: 20psi LR: 20psi Wakefield Park RF: 20psi LF: 20psi RR: 21psi LR: 21psi They were cold starting pressures, and obviously they'll be different to yours because they were slicks on a car that only weighed 730kg, but you can see that for each circuit they were different, some front to rear, some left to right. No fixed answer of course, and the numbers only appeared after experimenting for ages. And then it all changes depending on whether it is a hot day or a cold day... But for your car you may be able to get better steering response by altering the pressures from front to rear. Having a good quality, accurate gauge also helps. |
Damian Ware
DieHard Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 944 Reg: 10-2005
| Good point Andrew. Ben, when I had a TT I found due to the weight balance of the car with full trim that running a large differential between front and rear gave the best balance. I was running 40psi front and 36psi rear on factory 16's street tyres on the street. Perhaps you could also try lowering the rear tyre pressure by 1-2psi and see how it goes. I would also be looking at transferring as much easy to do so weight as possible to the rear of the car. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1514 Reg: 04-2006
|
Damian Ware wrote on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 12:38 pm:I would also be looking at transferring as much easy to do so weight as possible to the rear of the car.
gearbox? LOL I know. I have spent may hours in the shed staring at the engine bay looking for stuff I don't need, or stuff I can move rearwards. Unfortunately I have been out of the country for a while, otherwise I would have tackled the battery already. I was planning to put it where the rear left passenger seat used to be, to keep cabling short etc. I may need to throw it right back in the boot. I was running the rears 1 pound lower than the fronts (31PSI) initially. I don't really know why I changed. I think it was on the recommendation of a driving coach at Oran Park. Another thing to play around with on the weekend. The issue is you generally get 15min every hour during the day, so conditions are different every time you go out, or you spend half your 15min in the pit area making adjustments. I got caught out big time coming from Oran Park on 36 deg day down to the 9am session at wakefield (about 20 deg) I couldn't figure out why the car still felt like on lap 5 of the session. I came in to find my tyres were still down around 26-27 PSI because I used the starting pressures from Oran Park... |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1518 Reg: 04-2006
| A while back someone asked how much the supra 17 inch wheels weigh. I have the tyres off my fronts now, and put them on the scales. They weigh 9.8kg, which I think is pretty good. I just wish I had another pair of 17x8s so I could run them all round. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 15 Reg: 02-2008
| hey mate have fun on saturday, we fly back in that day. Will catch up next week. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1521 Reg: 04-2006
| Ack! Car is on the trailer. Tools packed. Back is strapped (I buggered it from lifting to much). Not looking forward to the 3:30 am start tomorrow. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1524 Reg: 04-2006
| Big day. Only got four sessions on the track due to several people attempting to destroy their cars on the track. Such is life. I spent a bit of time recording pressures, and temperatures across the tyre to figure out what is going on. It looks like the rear of the car is sorted, with 2 deg neg camber and 32PSI(hot) in the semi slicks. The front on the other hand is all over the shop. I was running 33PSI(hot) in the fronts, but it appears that I may need to run them a little higher. The centre of the tyres was cooler than the outsides by up to 5 degrees, or 10% considering the tyres were around 50 degrees after the cool down lap. I'll do up a little diagram to illustrate the temps and post it up. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1525 Reg: 04-2006
| Here is a diagram showing the temps after run 2. I have read that the average temp on the outer edges should be equal to the centre, if the pressures are correct. Once you have achieved this, you can then use the temps to deduct your camber setting requirements. ie: if the inside edge is hotter, take some camber out. If the outside edge is hotter, add some neg camber etc. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1526 Reg: 04-2006
| OK that didn't work.
| Front left | | | | Front right | | 51 | 47 | 49 | | 50 | 45 | 47 | | | | | | | | | Rear left | | | | Rear right | | 49 | 48 | 49 | | 51 | 51 | 52 | |
|
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 253 Reg: 06-2008
| Had a look at the results for yesterday Ben. That's some pretty handy lap times mate. Only 3 seconds off Tony's Sports Sedan, and 4 seconds up on Jeff's Soarer. Nice work. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1527 Reg: 04-2006
| Thanks mate! There were a few "proper race cars" there yesterday, and I was surprised to find I was quicker than a few. I was stunned to find I pulled away from the GT2 Porsche on the straight. He totally destroyed me by the short straight under the bridge though, a massive two turns after the main straight. I guess it is an unfair comparison though. I am not constrained by category rules, and am not carrying a cage around with me. Jeff actually went on to post a 1:27.3 to my 1:24.8, so the gap is only 2.5 seconds now. Maybe I do need to get some full slicks, LOL. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 254 Reg: 06-2008
| Nah, stay away from the slicks mate. I don't want you to embarrass me. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo NSW TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 5137 Reg: 03-2006
| There is a massive difference between Semi's and Full slicks in times.. Expect to shave 2-3.5 seconds off around your current Oran Park time buddy ... |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1479 Reg: 07-2005
| Ben any developments on the camber adjustment front? |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 1142 Reg: 08-2005
| good to see you are getting there ben. let me know if you need a hand at wakefield ill be willing to help out if im free |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1532 Reg: 04-2006
|
Phil Gibson wrote on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 12:39 pm:Ben any developments on the camber adjustment front?
In short, Nope! I have sent another email to him, but as long as demand is greater than supply, he probably wont bother going to the effort of sending them over here. I'm not even getting emails returned. It might be time to ask one of the US members to see if they can sort me out. Be nice to do it while the Aussie is up on the greenback. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1542 Reg: 04-2006
| Been away again for the last couple of weeks, but I have managed to buy an IR thermometer 'gun' and new competition tyre pressure gauge. The thermometer also comes with a thermocouple contact probe, so I can use either to check the tyres. I am off to Wakefield again next weekend, and am taking a mate with me so I should be able to get a better read on what the tyres are doing. Still no word on the offset bushes from the states. I think it is time to give up on the guy and look elsewhere for them, or a solution for more front camber. I have managed to get hold of a GT wing. That has been put on the boot with a minimum of fuss. It looks a bit 'wanky' but hopefully it will make some difference at Wakefield. The angle of attack of the whole wing is adjustable and it also has a smaller second wing element that is adjustable. It will be interesting to see if there is any change to my max speed (176kph) on the main straight due to the drag. I also want to experiment with the tyre pressures, as the Toyo website suggests for cars over 1400kg pressures should be 37-42 psi hot, or 27-35 cold starting pressure. This is a lot higher than people have recommended, and what I have been running. My car now weighs 1480kg with driver and fuel. I'll get some pics tomorrow to jazz up the thread. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1543 Reg: 04-2006
| Pics of RSM install (and max speed last meet!) and the spoiler. I am looking at fabricating something to lower the spoiler a little, and make adjustments a little easier. At the moment there are too many links in the way the wing is connected to the uprights.
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Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1544 Reg: 04-2006
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Joe Russell
TryHard Manawatu 4.0 V8 GT-L (UZZ31)
Posts: 446 Reg: 10-2008
| Shes looking awesome Ben! Haha yep that wing is a tad high, might be good for looking out the rear view at all the people behind you though |
Spencer Cameron
Tinkerer NSW JZZ30 (converted Manual)
Posts: 57 Reg: 04-2008
| It'd be good if you can keep that wing at that height Ben. Any lower and it'll obscure your rear vision. A friend of mine found his wing (similar kind on a similar car) worked better after he raised it to about where yours is now. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1545 Reg: 04-2006
| I'm away for most of this week, so it is staying the height it is for the time being. I only want to drop it an inch, mainly to make it simpler to adjust. My idea is ditching the 4 links and making up a single ally plate that will allow adjustment by loosening a single wing nut on each strut. The front pivots will be fixed in place. I need new front pads, so I'll have to phone in an order and hope they are here by Friday. If not I have a set of standard Bendix pads which should be good for at least a handful of laps (maybe 5?) if they pull me up at the second corner. It'll be a shame to go to Wakefield on crappy pads, but it's better than not going at all. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.
Posts: 259 Reg: 06-2008
| You could raise the wing another couple of inches Ben, to put it in line with the maximum height (i.e. the roof line)! |
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT & UZZ31
Posts: 2458 Reg: 12-2007
| It would be interesting to see a top speed read out with and without the wing if you ever get the chance. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 16 Reg: 02-2008
| we should have time to try the wing, no wing theory this weekend and with ben having the RSM installed top speed recall will be easy as. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1548 Reg: 04-2006
| Might have to get Paul ready on the tools and try a back to back wing, no wing test in the same session, with the tyres hot. Maybe 4 laps with, and two or three with out. Probably do it later in the day after we have played with the angle of attack adjustment a bit, and there are less people on the track to interfere with the lap(s). Otherwise, I know my previous best speed down the straight is 176kph, and that is fairly consistent over the day. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 1007 Reg: 10-2005
| It only needs to be high enough to be in clean air. Given the aero profile of a soarer I would put the wing as low as reasonably possible. Ben are you planning any front aero changes to increase front down force as well? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo NSW Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 1549 Reg: 04-2006
| We were talking about that this afternoon, weighing up the options of a front splitter and or changing the undertray. I had a look at some stuff on RHDJapan etc. There are some things available for $1500-2000...way to much for my car. I might have to go the plywood route for testing, and maybe construct something out of aluminium or fibreglass later on. The obvious concern is that if I add rear downforce to aid grip at that end, then any deficiencies at the front end are going to be highlighted. I am just going to have to suck it and see. |