Last x Days Posts  1 | 3 | 7 Days  Search  Topics  Tree View  Help
  Soarer Central * Track and Major Rebuild Car Projects * Ben's Time Attack Soarer * Archive through July 14, 2010 Previous Previous    Next Next  

Author Message
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 555
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 08:26 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 10:51 pm:

Aiden, you don't think the door is part of the cars structure at all?


Ah not really - if it really was structurally important then your door seals would be ruined after just a few corners as the chassis moved crushing your door into the door frame and ruining the rubber.

The only point that might hold any chassis rigidity would be between the hinge and the lock which is where that crush bar used to be and that's gone now. So.. Why not make a solid pipe bolt up to the hinge point and the door lock if you're worried about rigidity and not have a door, or even perspex in the shape of the door, or just my original thought of a couple of leather straps running cross thatched to stop anything loose in the car falling out on track (if something was to come loose).
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1579
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 09:04 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The door is a considerable part of the cars structure and the doors are particularly big in a soarer.

The seals survive as they have a very large area at which the forces are applied over hence low pressure.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 558
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:07 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 09:04 pm:


The seals survive as they have a very large area at which the forces are applied over hence low pressure.


Nope, its the frame AROUND the door. The A pillar B pillar and C pillar have forces, the door itself doesn't. Like i said, if anywhere its ONLY between where the door hinge and the lock mechanism is. Which is like i said: exactly where he removed the reinforcement. (Which is only necessary as a protrusion bar anyway)

Here's a simple test: Try opening your car door while the vehicle is in motion. If it can't be budged then your car door is pressed hard against the car chassis due to your forces.

I think its also pretty funny that you think I didn't notice that a soarer's doors were large..
Andrew McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.

Posts: 432
Reg: 06-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 08:03 am, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leather straps or doors removed won't pass scrutineering. Doors are there to keep flying stuff out as much as keep stuff in. The Sports Sedan regs call for doors or suitable replacements that look like doors, and that's the rules Ben is building the car against.

Back to you Ben, and PM sent.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1580
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:07 pm:

Nope, its the frame AROUND the door. The A pillar B pillar and C pillar have forces, the door itself doesn't. Like i said, if anywhere its ONLY between where the door hinge and the lock mechanism is. Which is like i said: exactly where he removed the reinforcement. (Which is only necessary as a protrusion bar anyway)

Here's a simple test: Try opening your car door while the vehicle is in motion. If it can't be budged then your car door is pressed hard against the car chassis due to your forces.

I think its also pretty funny that you think I didn't notice that a soarer's doors were large..




Jack the car up at one corner then open the door and watch the alignment move considerably.

If you have seen a soarer under high cornering load you can see the torsional flex in the body.

I have heard that with shagged hinges that in some cars under high cornering load they get wind noise as there is enough flex and movement to cause separation and the seals no longer seal. With good door hinges this doesn't happen.

Most modern day cars if not all the door is designed to be a stress member of the chassi, 30 years ago they were not and the door material thickness hinges ect reflected this as did the door seals which were vastly different in there design.

Trying removing the doors and going around a corner under high load and see what happens.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 562
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 02:28 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am:


If you have seen a soarer under high cornering load you can see the torsional flex in the body.


Yeah, but not in the door, safety regulations force manufacturers to make the forces of the car to not be held by the DOOR but the CHASSIS. The "Safe T cells" and all that are based around those pillars.

Andrew McKellar wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 08:03 am:

Leather straps or doors removed won't pass scrutineering.


That's about all you needed to say, but still doesn't mean you couldn't just make a mock-up bolt on perspex door right? use the hinge point bolt holes and the door lock bolt holes to hold on a mini-frame that weighs less than 5kgs instead of working backwards.


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am:


Trying removing the doors and going around a corner under high load and see what happens.


Err... why, if there is any meaningful forces being applied, the easier test would be to try and open the door. if the door cant move then its got forces CRUSHING it into the body.

There is flex in the BODY AROUND THE DOOR.


Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am:


If you have seen a soarer under high cornering load you can see the torsional flex in the body.


Yup, but the strongest point in the body is the freaking frames around the doors.

Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am:



I have heard that with shagged hinges that in some cars under high cornering load they get wind noise as there is enough flex and movement to cause separation and the seals no longer seal.


Yup shagged hinges is when someone has leaned on the door causing the door hinges to bend downwards a bit and throw the alignment of the door off, the chassis twists and instead of the door starting off centred it starts off lower than centre near the door hinge. The chassis flexes a tiny bit and the seal separates because the DOOR ISN'T ALIGNED.

That has nothing to do with body rigidity at all.

Really if there was meaningful forces being applied for 20 years, EVERYONE'S door seals would be completely wrecked. No matter how small, that wear would have RUINED IT at the most common "pressure point"

stop just saying things. Your criticisms are based on NOTHING. It was a suggestion that you've taken a crusade against without having even a clue about what's happening. You've never driven the car without doors you have no firsthand experience, I'm not going to take my doors off. I was offering the suggestion to BEN as an alternative way of thinking.

The only criticsm that has any meaningful input here is what Andrew said. Which actually holds merit in the basis that it wouldn't be trackworthy.

Hence i offered another suggestion, which i stated before. Just make a mini frame and bolt on some perspex shaped in the door shape. You could even add the soarer door seal onto its edge if you wanted to remove any kind of rubbing caused by chassis flex.

Hrm, the only other thing that'd stop me from making a frame for a passenger door is fear of fire.. thinking about it without a quick release mechanism if you crash so badly that your driver door is stuck up against the wall then your other method of escape is pre-blocked. Ohwell it's getting much less interesting if you'd have to worry about that because then you'd have to engineer a way to bolt it in studs or something to fit in the holes and then a lever to pressure it and that way you can fit the lever to remove the pressure and kick out the door...

Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 09:08 am:

*something about jacking up the car and watching chassis rigidity*


Amazingly I've never had a problem opening a door when doing this, there are next to no forces being applied through the door that would cause it to help the chassis not move.

I can't believe how much you're labouring onto this without bringing forwards any information that is meaningful.
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
uzz31 v8

Posts: 1229
Reg: 03-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 03:43 pm, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiden,I think you may be disturbing a sleeping loin , Damian is a gooroo not by his number of posts !!
Andrew McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.

Posts: 433
Reg: 06-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 05:31 pm, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 02:28 pm:

Andrew McKellar wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 08:03 am:
Leather straps or doors removed won't pass scrutineering.


That's about all you needed to say,



All I needed to say was "you two stop the pissing contest and let Ben tell us more about his car on his thread", but I was trying to be subtle. My bad, I'm too subtle sometimes.

Ben has recently completed the installation of a very detailed roll cage, which increased the structural rigidity of his car immensely. It is tagged into the A and B pillars, as well as the transmission tunnel and numerous other points around the chassis and body. His car won't flex, with or without doors.

So yes, he can replace the doors with something lighter, which I'm pretty sure he will eventually do. If he makes them "unopenable", then there are also rules he must comply with that relate to how quickly he can escape from the car from being fully strapped into the driver's seat (I think it is 3 seconds on driver's side and 8 seconds on the passenger's side but don't quote me on it - I didn't try to remember it because my doors still open). That "escape" involves undoing the harness and climbing out the window opening.

Alternatives for Ben are to make (or obtain) lighter doors (for example fibreglass ones) and still hinge them and retain some sort of door opening/latching mechanism. You wouldn't need those heavy original hinges because the door is much lighter than the original.

Or he could keep his original doors until he can afford the money and time to devote to new ones, but do his best to take as much weight out of the ones he has on the car. But wait, he already did that...

Now, seriously. Back to you Ben.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 565
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 07:44 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Andrew McKellar wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 05:31 pm:

All I needed to say was "you two stop the pissing contest and let Ben tell us more about his car on his thread", but I was trying to be subtle. My bad, I'm too subtle sometimes.


What are you talking about, i meant as in that's about all you needed to say to veto my idea. Don't get offended because you can't interpret a post.

Dave Rose wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 03:43 pm:

Aiden,I think you may be disturbing a sleeping loin


I'm sorry, what? What has his 'guru" to do with anything here? I've built cars from nothing but a fiberglass shell. I've restored rusty 70s cars, i've swapped 5 engines in my own spare time, owned 5 cars which never saw a mechanic except to pass road-worthies (first time pass every time because they are in perfect mechanical condition when i sell them) I've helped turbo two cars, i've turned a 4x4 into a ute and etc etc. I work casually in a mechanic shop restoring vehicles (in my spare time to earn cash while at uni), i've worked before as a mechanic at a dealership and I'm interested in cars.

I don't exactly consider myself a guru because I don't know everything. But when the hell do you need to become a guru to offer a suggestion?
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
uzz31 v8

Posts: 1231
Reg: 03-2007

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 08:43 pm, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ohh sorry its lion not loin.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1581
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 01:58 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiden is in luck as I am too busy with a wedding 9 days away to respond in detail with a post appropirate to his comments.

Aiden, think about my previous posts jack your car up and open the door and think out what happens. Then take into consideration the following.

What about a convertible with no roof or frame?

Beam and torsional tests are done with doors in certain positions ie closed and open and yes this effects the results with doors closed producing higher Nm/deg.

VASS engineers who perform B&T testing are well aware of this and often they are the scrutineers at track days at least they are down here. So in knowing this and know if does effect the cars structure would they allow it on the track....

Why wouldn't an efficiently designed car use the doors as a stressed member to increase stiffness. The doors are also used in conjunction with the frame to improve stiffness and strength they are also used to transmit energy around the passenger cell in the event of an accident, not just the frame.

Engines in some cars are also used as stressed members such as F50. If you can use an engine to increase stiffness that is rubber mounted why not a door?


If you don't believe me do some reading, I found this with a 10 second google search and there is plenty more information on the net. Even the door glass has been used as a stressed member to increase stiffness in a PT cruiser.

"As an added benefit, the system's thicker window glass increases vehicle rigidity and contributes to noise reduction in the cabin. This technology is a key contributor to superior wind noise performance and gives the Chrysler PT Cruiser Convertible one of the easiest door opening and closing efforts in the industry."

http://www.ptcruizer.com/convertible.html
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1582
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 02:13 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Dave,


PS Aiden, do not miss quote me!!


Aiden Cheese wrote on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 02:28 pm:

*something about jacking up the car and watching chassis rigidity*


Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 566
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 03:23 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay look you're an being an idiot so i'm going to say this slower.

I came here and read through everything, follow everything that Ben has done.

I've seen him use some rather clever unconventional ways to improve his vehicle and some of them are a little questionable for various reasons.

Each of them have pro's and cons. Maybe he shouldn't have used garden edging, maybe he shouldn't have cut his boot, maybe he shouldn't have removed that strengthening bar in his door, maybe etc etc etc.

So on the back of that I came up with a whimsical suggestion. Work the other direction - fabricate a replacement door, should be a little dearer, but much lighter.

The thought I put into it lasted seconds.

Rather then debate HOW much door you'd have to make to make it the same, you debated that its a preposterous idea, unfathomable, and completely incoherent. Instead of looking for pro's and con's for it, you just dismiss it under some random facts that don't add up, make no sense, and you can't substantiate.

I refine the idea shortly later when I was forced to think about it for more than a few seconds to be more structural keeping stuff out and in. I think think to myself "you know what you could probably just shape some material in the shape of the door that would weigh much less than the door". Make a small frame that could bolt into place using the existing bolt holes. End up with a door which didn't take much time to fabricate but you could easily swap for a regular unmodified door.

You ignore the changes in what I've said, desperate to prove your point that a door is significantly structurally important. You dont' care which part of the door is significant in structure, you ignore the revision completely, blind to change and argue your point deeper.

I point out that you're wrong, and you come up with facts about convertible cars, which don't have full A and B pillars (not to mention everything else which connects directly to metal). You're not even on the same topic anymore Damian. You're not on the topic of suggestions, not on the topic of helping Ben's car, you're not even on the topic of the door anymore.

Hell you're not even talking about the car.

The truth is damian. Even in a convertible, my design for that replacement door would still work. Do you know why? It's because of that point of between the door hinge and door latch is still the structural point. Inside a convertible car door is a rail not dissimilar from what Ben removed. Here's how it works. There's a rail underneath the door to stop the car from flexing Up and down and it helps with side to side (although under the car is some rails, and another large rail in the dash also often people put strut bars on the suspension as we know). Basically if that's all that was there, there would be support in a U shape around the door. Inside the door there is a rail. When the door closes, the rail is pressured (it's not mechanical or anything, its just part of the door) between the hinge and the door lock. T That adds rigidity to the top of the car too so that neither the top nor the bottom can flex much. It becomes a more of a shape of a square around the door.

Though all of that is irrelevant. You fail to take note of my grievances with your posts and i'll list them concisely so that you can understand them. Perhaps you were having comprehension problems as I may have got caught up on semantics so the main points may have been lost in some unrelated waffle.

1) If the door is structural, the points of force would be through the middle of the door running length ways from the door hinge to the door lock. With a door structurally designed to bolt to those two points with a rail running directly between them, you're not going to lose meaningful structural rigidity.

2) The Soarer door frame is structurally strong. The chassis has flex, but that won't change much if you removed the door and replaced it with a single bar between the hinge and door lock point.

3) If the door was structurally important at some other point, like on the door seal, then you would expect to see some wear on the seal. Not even tough engine mounts last 200 000kms. Yet door seals are somehow lasting longer despite the fact they're mostly made of a foam compound that you can tear with your fingers.

I want to add more to this:

4) where do you expect the forces in the door to be exerted? At which point and in which direction?

5) How does this answer affect if you were to build a replacement door? Can you still replace the door? Isn't the door mostly just a metal shell with some rubber?

I think if i ask these questions clearer maybe you may be able to answer them instead of strange tangents about how convertible doors differ from standard car doors.

And if you're using your irrelevant facts about the car having lower torsional strength, you should consider how relevant this is to Ben's track car, which is the application I was suggesting it for. Remember that all things are relative.

Now, you know, I know, most everyone knows, that the biggest problem with the chassis not being rigid enough, is the twisting can cause over steer. Not unlike a sloppy suspension coming into line, it throws the weight around like a bit of a rubber band. But consider this, and they're similar to my other points and questions

1) How much chassis rigidity is going to be lost without a door, in the sense that how much over steer or difficulty of handling may increase?

2) Include in your answer to that the facts that the car has a roll cage designed exactly to reduce these effects.

3) Does your torsion tests still hold meaning to the answer when i say the door does a meaningless amount of support if you consider both the roll cage and a support bar between the lock and door hinge point. Include in this answer the fact that Ben has significantly less weight in the car, a substantial factor in torsion testing.

Because when i say "Meaningless amount of force" I'm looking at the overall picture here. The end result. If it does add a tiny bit less drive-ability, is that your con? Because you could be right, the torsion even on Ben's roll cage car might without a door be a worse result.

But in that case the con would be "Slightly less drivable by an unperceivable amount" but the pro would be "less 50kgs" or some amount.

Yes my response was long winded, but you constantly refused to see my points in previous posts and still argued so I figured one long winded final and comprehensive post should clarify any confusion.

Edit: for calrity on line 1. I changed "idiot" to "being an idiot" because you're not stupid, you're just ignoring what I say.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2210
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 09:53 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Upload


This is a picture of my track car. I used to have a thread about it on Soarer Central...


Ohhhhh SNAP! This is the thread about my track car. Seriously, while you are both well intentioned (I hope) take it somewhere else. Nearly every thread on Soarer Central ends up with a pair of knobbers in a pissing contest. Based on your contributions in the past I would hardly expect either of you two to be involved in such a pathetic pursuit.

So don't.

Some one asked about the weight figure. Almost a year ago I put it on a weighbridge. It came in at 1395kg with 3/4 tank of fuel. Since then I have added the 60kg cage, and some other stuff. You would have to read the whole thread again to figure out what was done when I weighed it. I have pulled more weight out as well, so it is probably time to weigh it again.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2211
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 10:01 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BUT

On the plus side, my post count is now well up at 625, so I am closing the gap on you Andrew!

Seriously, you go away for a few days...
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 11647
Reg: 11-2004

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:01 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, I don't mind trying to delete the "owner/operator" posts in this thread if you would prefer.
Christian Somerville
DieHard
South Australia
UZZ31 V8 LTD

Posts: 697
Reg: 03-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:23 am, by:  Christian Somerville (Csomers) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, love it, such a good choice as the stock soarer is actually pretty aerodynamic, my stock as a rock V8 Soarer kept up with a HSV senator because of it's aerodynamics.
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

Posts: 4685
Reg: 11-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:28 pm, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That would be an interesting drive... hmm
Guy Moore
Tinkerer
QLD
JZZ30 TT M/T

Posts: 86
Reg: 03-2010

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:04 pm, by:  Guy Moore (Thesoarerguy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben that looks so mean that car
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2213
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 18, 2010 - 08:04 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Nitschke wrote on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:01 am:

Ben, I don't mind trying to delete the "owner/operator" posts in this thread if you would prefer.




Nah. As long as they are done with it. Things get all confusing when posts are deleted etc.

Seems to have generated some life and interest again though.

Christian Somerville wrote on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:23 am:

Ben, love it, such a good choice as the stock soarer is actually pretty aerodynamic, my stock as a rock V8 Soarer kept up with a HSV senator because of it's aerodynamics.




I wish mine could keep up with a certain blue Monaro. Aerodynamics and handling aside, I felt like I was running Nations Cup in a Lotus the last time out! I am looking at power up options at the moment in another thread. It seems I either go nuts and build a big dollar engine (either based on a JZ or LSX) or slowly modify over time, with a computer, boost etc. Depending on where you are in SA, you'll probably see it next year.

Mike Beck wrote on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:28 pm:

That would be an interesting drive... hmm



Yes it is fun. I like to think of it as a Soarer with a hard edge. With the dash (mostly) intact it still feels like you are sitting in a Soarer. I still have the stock rubber bushes, so the NVH isn't as bad as it could be.

Thanks Guy. I would love to straighten that rear quarter and paint it, but the truth is I would have to pay a professional to get the panel good enough.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 567
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 04:38 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Lipman wrote on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 09:53 pm:

Ohhhhh SNAP! This is the thread about my track car.


Sorry mate, was just a simple suggestion (obviously you said that too) didn't mean for it to get out of hand.

Of course I didn't mean to derail the thread but I didn't think it would stop the discussion as soon as you posted some updates, it was more filler between them is all. Obviously it pushes the point that people while loungechairing their way through your build, are still very interested and vocal about your car. I just feel it's a shame it's not in QLD :p


Upload


I really think this car looks the goods. This car if i saw it I'd not mistake it for a poser car. The closer you get the more you notice exactly how designed it is for its purpose. Hence my interest.

Even if that monaro can leave you for dust in a straight line, you know exactly where to build to start closing that gap. It's pretty clear that around the corners you quickly chase him down, although its tough to see how much of that is just your skill level above his :-)
Andrew McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.

Posts: 434
Reg: 06-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:00 pm, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Lipman wrote on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 10:01 pm:

my post count is now well up at 625, so I am closing the gap on you Andrew!


Hmmm. I just noticed I've posted more comments on your silly thread than on my own in the last 6 months. Not good at all. And doubling up on your post count by making extra comments about your post count is cheating!
Andrew McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly); '84 MA61 Supra.

Posts: 435
Reg: 06-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:03 pm, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aiden Cheese wrote on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 04:38 pm:

This car if i saw it I'd not mistake it for a poser car. The closer you get the more you notice exactly how designed it is for its purpose. Hence my interest


Sh1t! Don't look at my car then Aiden...
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 574
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 02:24 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Andrew McKellar wrote on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:03 pm:

Sh1t! Don't look at my car then Aiden...


Your car looks heaps like a poser car! Don't take that the wrong way of course, it LOOKS like it should be a race car but, given my predisposition to lots of bodykits on the average driving car, I'd never guess your car happens to be the car done right.

Luckily I'm not a betting man because I've read your thread and its a tale of twists and turns, love life and loss. From sand storms to hand crushing. It's just filled with everything you could want.


Upload

Your car looks the goods. Not for a second would I have guessed without reading that outside doesn't even match the inside.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2218
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 08:39 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You crack me up Andrew. Of course I'd love for my car too look like Andrew's, but we are taking different routes to the same town (but different suburbs!). Andrew will eventually run in a National Championship and needs a car that looks the goods to pull the financial support to make it a real contender.

I on the other hand want my fun now, and on the cheap. I am running in club events with little or no exposure, and every one who is 'sponsored' is generally the owner of both the car and the business paying the bills. Looking good in my current club is probably a bit of a disadvantage.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1583
Reg: 10-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 09:35 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiden, I am more than happy to ask the moderators to move the posts from this thread to a new thread in mechanical - common in a couple of weeks when I have time to respond.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 585
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:57 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They're pointless without respect to Ben's car, I don't really want to talk about it anymore anyway, but you know its like this:

Upload


haha i'm just teasing now :-P

Ben I don't think you should change it at all. You really look the part, in a totally different way. There is nothing i have but respect. There's a redneck way of doing things which shocks you often being way outside of the box, and then there's your much more moderate approach of good ideas well executed. I like that. I have lots of respect for that.

Of course andrew doesn't deserve any less respect, but i'm more interested in Ben's car because it's more relateable, almost achievable for myself too. Although its a road I don't really think I want to go down haha
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2220
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 09:46 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That picture is funny because it's true.

I went out yesterday arvo and rifled through the shelves of my local motor bike wrecker. I must say there were lots of wrecked bikes in there. Unfortunately, the mirrors seem to be the first thing damaged when a Valentino hopeful throws it down the road. I did manage to pick up a pair of mirrors from a Ducati 9005S (900SS?). They look remarkably like the 'sports mirrors' I put on a Gemini about 18 years ago. They are made in Italy, so they should be useless after a week in the weather.

The stock mirrors from the car weigh just over 1.6kg each. The Duc mirrors weigh a massive 315 grams each, and are smaller. I wanted something smaller and sportier, but couldn't find anything undamaged. Carbon fibre and fibreglass don't hold up so well when they hit the ground at a million MPH.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2223
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 09:08 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I got around to machining the nolathane bushes down to fit the suspension arms today. They are now all fitted into the car.

I had hoped with new bushes I could get more camber out of the stock suspension, but alas I am still a fraction under 2 degrees. I am wondering how bad those ebay/just jap adjustable upper arms really could be...

Now to swap the arms into the road car, as those bushes are shot.
Scott Wilkes
Goo Roo
Tasmania
92 TT Factory Manual, 70 HG GTS Monaro

Posts: 1602
Reg: 10-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 28, 2010 - 10:30 pm, by:  Scott Wilkes (Scottywilkes) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

theres a thread on this forum that a fella had the justjap style upper arm broke and caused him to have a accident. Cant for the life of me remember who it was though
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2226
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 02:46 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The pic was in one of Dave Cazes suspension threads. The guy wasn't a member of any of the Soarer forums, so I still have no first hand info on how bad they are.

Dave C was going to look into building an upper arm, but I haven't seen anything pop up on his website yet.

I spent a lot of time lying under the front of the car on the weekend. The upper arms aren't anywhere as hugely solid as the lowers. That is what got me thinking about the Just Jap arms again.
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

Posts: 2677
Reg: 07-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 09:56 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Think about the worst case scenario, an arm breaks in the middle of the fastest corner at the valley.

if this happens do you:
a) go into a wall at 100mph and have a huge accident and maybe die
or
b) go into the gravel trap an stop safely.

Work this out an you will have your answer whether to go chinese arms or spend a bit more on some quality ones.

What price do you put on your own body/safety??
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2228
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 10:46 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My question would be: what is the strength value of the stock upper arm, and then how does this to compare to the Just jap arms? I don't like to make decisions on internet paranoia.

You look at the Ikeya arms, which are generally regarded as the standard, and they rely on 4x 5/6mm hex screws to support all the forces that the stock arms do.

I have a spare set of uppers sitting at home. If I could think of some way to modify them I would.

I am even thinking of looking around for other cars with similar arms but slightly shorter. This way I would have the benefit of the OEM adjustment range but with a whole lot more neg camber available.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2240
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, July 05, 2010 - 08:34 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Went down to Hidden Valley for a Motorkhana on Sunday. Got some video, and I can feel another compilation coming on. More on that when I get it done.

One of the V8 Commodores was testing in the afternoon on the track proper. I managed to work in with him (thanks Rick!) and do a pair of 5 lap 'Tests'. There was no timing, and my GPS was flat so we had to go back to the stopwatch. I ran a couple of hard laps in the 1:25 zone. The radiator ran a nice constant 95 deg and dropped to 90 rapidly after getting off the pace. The oil temp still ran too hot between 110-120 deg and didn't move much on the cool down lap.

I am stumped. The only way forward from here is either a larger cooler core (I have a 10 row) or have another look at the ducting. I am wondering if the air is not getting out the back of the core for some reason. Maybe I'll try running some ducting from the cooler out to the side of the wheel arch with the aim of using the low pressure on the side of the car to 'suck' air through the cooler.

The other option is a small fan to draw air through. Or some sort of water spray...

I'll spend some brain cells and see if I can knock something up before going to a larger cooler.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2241
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:34 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hKT2xOytM

Motorkhana video. No sexy music because most of the stuff youtube allow is kinda, well, crap. My version at home has "no brakes" by the Offspring...
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria (The Nazi State)
Active V8 and the Beast.

Posts: 2699
Reg: 07-2005

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 12:55 am, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All that aero work for high speed stability and grip and never got out of 1st.

Looks like fun though, as long as you don't get dizzy.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2245
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 09:07 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah dude, I got dizzy enough on one of the circuits that I needed to get out and do some deep breathing. I mean 5 left hand loops in a flower petal arrangement,

I only do the motorkhana because I have a car sitting there doing nothing. It is fun though, and I reckon it is a must for anyone wanting to get into drifting as a lot of it is controlling slides on the throttle. I may even have a go at the drift events once the track is closed.

Plus there is often someone who has booked a test session at the track and they are usually kind enough to let me run a few laps as they know I'll stay out of their way.
Scott Casey
TryHard
nsw
soarer v8

Posts: 492
Reg: 02-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:02 pm, by:  Scott Casey (V8soarer_1991) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben,

This car has gone along way since circuit club trackday @ Wakefield Park .

should get it boosted and tuned to hsv speed.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2250
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 07:48 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Scott Casey wrote on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:02 pm:

should get it boosted and tuned to hsv speed.




You wanna come up and do that for me mate? I've got my hands full at the moment, and have once again run out of money.

The 'missile guy' in the blue Monaro was in the pit next to me on Sunday. We had a laugh about the laps when I was behind him.
Aiden- I can confirm he seems to be a nice guy, and his car is a very 'neat' example. It is all finished of with a kinda OEM quality. No bright work or anodised bits. He is running the new Pedders Coilovers, so it will be interesting to watch how they go. He has had them on for a while and likes 'em.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 670
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 02:36 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sahweet. Always nice to see someone bucking the curve :-)

I gave a thumbs up to a few of your vids, i noticed that you actually have a few up there on youtube and enjoyed watching them :-)

Hope you do manage to get yours to be a bit quicker on the straight but I really think you're doing very well in the corners so the mods are really showing some strengths.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2253
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 08:03 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll get some more power, probably in the new year. (is it too early to talk about the new year?)

I'll either do a single install with a computer, or run a computer and more boost/fuel on the stock setup until something goes bang. In the short term, another 50 RWKW should see me happy I reckon. Too much too soon and then I'll have drive line issues to deal with.

No idea what thumbs up are on you tube, but I assume it is a good thing. I just use it so you guys can see my video.
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30

Posts: 677
Reg: 09-2009

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, July 09, 2010 - 01:46 am, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

50 rwkw for you is worth a lot more than 50 rwkw to him in power weight ratios!

Haha and as for youtube, it does it's own things. I occasionally put stuff there just to show people things like how i emulated a PS2 game or how batman arkham asylum broke on PC version and sometimes people just watch them and a few hundred views rack up from nowhere.

Same with my photobucket atm. Because I link it here i think people sometimes view it as they load the page, but one day someone posted a picture (a really dull picture mind you) on another site and it got 3000 views in a day. I was a bit "WTF".

I don't pretend to understand the internet, I just use it. (although i just completed a subject in network infrastructure covering how the internet works, but that's not really how the internet is used.. .. nevermind lol i'm going in circles now)
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

Posts: 2257
Reg: 04-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:41 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some misguided people think the internet was invented to provide a communications network for the yanks to go and nuke everyone and then talk to each other afterwards. As we all die of cancer. Or boredom.

I know the truth. It was invented so you no longer have to go into dingy adult bookstores to buy rubbish quality porn on VHS. I just saved you three years of Uni.

I am chatting on a couple of forums (including this one) about ways to get some more camber into the front end. I have a half dozen cars to try and find in the wreckers and the list keeps getting longer.

I am also half way through installing lexan windows, and have the other door to gut.

And then there is my thread on here somewhere about how to go about getting more power.

Plus some random drifter dude has got in contact with me about welding his S14 back together. Apparently the strut tower has pulled away from the body work and the welds on the inner guard have all pulled apart. He saw my car at the track and figured I might want to do some work for a bottle of bourbon. He is in the same boat as me- trying to do to much with too little cash. I mean, how can I say no to that?

I guess I'm trying to say nothing is going to happen too quickly on the power front. I'll just keep looking around and working up to it. I am hoping to get hold of a fuel cell and fibreglass guards (Hint, hint Lew!) to put away for 'ron.
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z

Posts: 2898
Reg: 03-2006

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 05:14 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Was there a guy in an S2000 at this khana? And is that contruction work I see beginning for the new burnout pad and drag strip??? Only 5 years waiting...

PS I timed you at 1:24 :-)
Bernard Smith-Roberts
Tinkerer
ACT
Soarer V8

Posts: 66
Reg: 08-2008

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 - 05:31 pm, by:  Bernard Smith-Roberts (Gaze) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben,
do you have any problems with your power steering during khanas? I found my pump was cavitating pretty badly - during the run it was fine, but once I'd pulled up in the box, I would struggle to turn the wheel to drive out. How does your power steering deal with the quick turns and high revs for short periods?

  Administration Administration      Log Out Log Out Previous Previous      Next Next