Author |
Message |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2769 Reg: 08-2005
| wonder if you could retrofit an rx7 vent into the soarer guars that would look good? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2689 Reg: 04-2006
| Hey Paul, I hadn't thought about retrofitting the plastic guard liner or making something up to isolate the airflow through the coolers from the turbulent wheel well. That might work with a top of guard vent, but I don't have the room in there for ducting to go between the wheel and inside of the arch. Might get some sneaky front down force from out of it as well. As for a vent behind the guard, I am talking an industrial sized square vent that follows the line of the wheel arch. I would make a cut about 2 inches following the wheel arch, a cut just below the crease line, and a cut along the bottom. Then fold that section in to form the vent. A bit of sheet metal top and bottom to finish it off. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2690 Reg: 04-2006
| I have a nice drawing like that of the Soarer, but can't seem to find it. I guess that means you get to see just how bad my MS Paint skills are, LOL. THis is why I plan in my head and rarely draw detailed drawings. Most ideas would not make it past paper...
|
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2691 Reg: 04-2006
|
Try this one. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2692 Reg: 04-2006
| Here is a link to wool tufting a Soarer. Not being an expert on the stuff, I think the top of guard vent would work fine. The one behind the wheel arch might actually work too. If nothing else it may clean up that area. http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/283/284909.html |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 74 Reg: 02-2008
| Yeah mate that looks good , I was just searching Google image here at work for the above arch type vents http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/283000-283999/283607_2304_full.jpg |
Allan Langford
TryHard Vic UZZ31
Posts: 375 Reg: 05-2010
| you did spot the big F-off front mudflaps on that soarer being wool tufted, minus mud flaps it would probably be not soo bad. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2695 Reg: 04-2006
| Yeah, Alan I did see them. That's why I said the big vent would probably work. Something like that Paul, but more aggressive. If it turns out I'll buy some fibreglass ones. I had planned to any rate. Something like below:
|
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2771 Reg: 08-2005
| they are like m3 style flutes in the top.. wonder if anything like alot of the time attack cars do with their guards ben?? |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2790 Reg: 08-2005
| Hey Ben there is a 3076r .63 rear housing for 900 on jdmstyletuning.com and a relatively cheap 38mm tial wastegate |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 71 Reg: 08-2008
|
Ben Lipman wrote on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 08:31 pm:Here is a link to wool tufting a Soarer. Not being an expert on the stuff, I think the top of guard vent would work fine. The one behind the wheel arch might actually work too. If nothing else it may clean up that area. http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/283/284909.html
Ben, Looking at wool tufts to show where flow is laminar or turbulent is all fine, but it does not tell you what you need to know. You want to know where the best pressure difference between the locations of the inlet and outlet of your cooler. Back to that manometer again. Read this series on Autospeed http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Ultimate-DIY-Automotive-Modification-ToolKit-Part-3/A_111111/article. html Measure it before you cut holes. cheers michael |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2702 Reg: 04-2006
| But I like cutting holes. I spent the day photographing cars and talking to team staff at Clipsal. I am really looking at the vent behind the wheel arch. The Aussie racing cars have a really nice setup for air to exit the wheel arch area (they have no inner guard, so this is the way all the air entering the engine bay exits). I realised on the train today that I could do the manometer testing at 110kph by using the road soarer. Sure, it doesn't have the air dam and undertray, but it does have the exact same front guards, bonnet, and body as the track car. Doh! I might be able to do the simple water in a piece of hose testing to get an idea of high and low pressures. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 72 Reg: 08-2008
|
Ben Lipman wrote on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 09:13 pm:Doh! I might be able to do the simple water in a piece of hose testing to get an idea of high and low pressures.
= home made manometer
Ben Lipman wrote on Saturday, March 19, 2011 - 09:13 pm:I realised on the train today that I could do the manometer testing at 110kph by using the road soarer. Sure, it doesn't have the air dam and undertray, but it does have the exact same front guards, bonnet, and body as the track car.
I like the way you are thinking Ben! I forget you also have teh road car. cheers michael |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2707 Reg: 04-2006
| I need to host you down in Adelaide for a weekend or so, Michael. I hope to sort out some of that monometer testing this week. I have a stretch of 110 km road on the way to and from work. I just need to find some clear tubing. I couldn't find any magnehelic gauges on Aussie ebay, so monometer it is. I have also started working on a mould to make 'diffusers' (unsure of correct name) for the front undertray as a result of my chat with the Fujitsu V8 guys. This should be a two fold thing, as I will be cutting some of the plywood out of the front undertray reducing weight, as well as improving the performance of the front splitter and undertray. Once I have the mould made, I'll post some pics, as my description is pretty ordinary. Whilst I have been to-ing and fro-ing over power upgrades, and in light of my recent failed attemp to buy a pair of stock turbos (for highflowing) from a member on this forum, I decided to take that money and buy new front tyres. A pair of new R888 235/45/15 now sit on the rims, and the old semis have been put on my Motorkhana rims. The plan is to use the old crappy tyres when the car is in the shed etc and only put the 'race' tyres on the car when gong to the track. I hope to better look after this set. I may need to 'road' these on the street car as I don't think I'll have time to get the mould release off them in the short practice allocated at the Time Attack. I also have a new set of the Intima SR6300 pads coming. These should arguably provide the same lap time increase as the increase in power would have, albeit in the short term. Plus I have taken the pressure off my decision making process over power ups. There is no money allocated to that department anymore. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2709 Reg: 04-2006
|
My dual manometer setup. I wasn't sure I would have a long enough single length of tubing, but I had 2x shorter lengths. This way I am hoping to measure the pressure inside and outside the panel I want to vent. If this doesn't work then I'll buy a joiner and run one tube of the manometer to each side of the panel in question. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 73 Reg: 08-2008
| Looking good Ben ... |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo North Island JZZ31
Posts: 6300 Reg: 10-2005
| Looks like something from Mythbusters :-) |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2710 Reg: 04-2006
| Well two things happened today. I got home in daylight, and it stopped raining. I installed the MAN-o-meter into the car and did some testing on the freeway. The original setup with twin tubes gave barely discernable results. I removed one of the tubes and set it up with one side inside the guard, and the other outside. This worked better. Results- 1. the spot behind the wheel arch where all the generic vents are on Soarer guards provides a pressure differential of just 1/4 of an inch of water at 110kph. 2. The second option I explored was a vent in the top of the guard above the wheel. This showed a pressure differential of 1/4 inches of water at 70kph, and about 1/1/4 inches at 110kph! THis was measured straight across the guard, ie putting a tube in the same spot on either side of the panel, leading me to believe that there would be decent airflow through a vent in the top of the guard, and probably not so much with a vent behind the wheel. There are some significant what ifs: the major one being that the road car had all the stock guard liners, undertrays etc. The race car has a big air dam, better ducting of the vent either side of the main front bar opening, and an oil cooler inside each guard. I really need to test on the track car, as I am not convinced the vent behind the wheel wouldn't work. On the other hand, more testing on the road car may also reveal some better options. Nice to see that it appears that the vent on the top of the guard would work. Guess those GT prototype guys might actually know what they're on about. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 74 Reg: 08-2008
| Cool. Pun intended. Seriously, that is really good. We like to say that the data never lies, never speculates, never supposes and can always tell you exactly what the operator did to stuff the system. Did you try moving the one on top of the guard back and forward to find the limits of the "sweet spot"? How hard are the stock guard liners to remove? That might be a quicker option than waiting for the next track opportunity. Oh and did you measure the positive pressure at the point where your inlet will be? cheers michael |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2711 Reg: 04-2006
| No I didn't have a lot of daylight to play with. I was going to measure across where the oil coolers sit in the track car, ie the inlet and the part of the wheel arch where the 'outlet' is for the oil cooler (happens to be exactly where the SMIC normally sits). I really just wanted proof of concept. When I get some time I can move the ports around and plot the results. I am working the weekend, so I'll have to see how it goes. I am also continuing work on the mould for the front diffusers. Due to our crappy weather the bog is taking a very long time to cure to a sandable point. I remember from Andrew's thread that the better your mould, the better the end result will be. Plus it is a confidence builder for me. If the first mould works a treat, then I can progress to bigger or more complicated jobs. I have had more than one day dream where I am making my own front bar out of fibreglass. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2712 Reg: 04-2006
| did some more testing today
Couple of pics to show where I am measuring. Basically I measured the pressure difference between the guard as pictured and the inside front of the wheel arch where the coolers sit. The tape shows there is a good pressure differential directly above the tyre and to the rear. I am tempted to pull out the grinder and cut holes... I also measured the air intake versus the guar and wheel arch, but didn't have the tubing to measure the difference. What I did was take measurements compared to the cabin of the car. Unsurprisingly there was positive pressure at the intake, and negative pressure on top of the guard. I measured inside the front of the wheel arch as well, but it was the exact same measurement as the intake (I have no cooler in there on the road car, so nothing to obstruct the air flow and cause a pressure differential so this was pointless) |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 76 Reg: 08-2008
|
Ben Lipman wrote on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 06:18 pm:What I did was take measurements compared to the cabin of the car. Unsurprisingly there was positive pressure at the intake, and negative pressure on top of the guard.
yep, add those two pressures together to get the differential accross the cooler in that location (referenced to static pressure in each case). Don't cut the hole till you have the louvres to put in or you might end up with a gap |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2730 Reg: 04-2006
| I haven't got any further with the air pressure testing as i wanted to modify my front splitter/undertray before I hit the track again. First I made a mould out of shaped MDF and spray putty.
Then I fibreglassed it to get this. I hate fibreglass...
I then cut up my undertray and fitted the diffusers to the undertray with fibreglass.
And here is the finished product. I must say I have the utmost respect for those who make a living working with fibreglass. It is a stinky, itchy, sticky, messy business.
|
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2731 Reg: 04-2006
| I also fitted the new Intima SR pads. The rears still look very good so I didn't replace them. The fronts had uneven wear- the drivers side were quite a bit more worn than the passenger side. Might be something to keep an eye on in the future. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 75 Reg: 02-2008
| Looks great mate, cant wait to see the next project |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2732 Reg: 04-2006
| CHeers Paul. Spent the last couple of nights replacing the brake lines with braided stainless stuff, removing the passenger seat (that didn't last!), fitting up the splitter/undertray and doing all that prep work that goes with getting ready to hit the track. I am heading out to Mallala practice tomorrow to check everything works, bed in the brakes and road the tyres etc. Hopefully will only spend the morning out there as I have a bunch of other stuff I have been neglecting that really needs to be done. Now i have three separate work sheds, it just means I have created a filthy mess in three different places. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 468 Reg: 06-2008
| So if you are out putting in some practice tomorrow, are you going to fit up the MAN-o-meter? The engineers are salivating... |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2733 Reg: 04-2006
| I'm taking it. I'll see how it goes. I'd like to get some info about pressure in front and behind the oil coolers, and explore the guard vent some more and so on. I don't know how the scrutineers will be. I also don't want to do to much work on the new pads and tyres, but it will depend on how many cars are out there. If there is plenty of room I'll be happy to tootle around testing. If it is packed, I'll stick to the plan and just bed everything in and validate the car. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo WA UZZ31
Posts: 3229 Reg: 09-2007
| nice work Ben. I agree about fibreglassing, its a pain! i fibreglassed some of my door trims and that stuff just sucks to work with! |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Posts: 12080 Reg: 11-2004
| So, how did it go today? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2735 Reg: 04-2006
| A mixed bag. The car was faster (yay) but felt horrible to drive. I wasn't there to set times, but when I was bedding in thew brakes I noticed I had run a couple of 1:24 second laps, almost by accident. When I put the foot down I ran a 1:22.5 on the racechrono. The problem is it is suffering badly from power oversteer, and also a bit of oversteer under brakes. It turns in nice, but the rear wants to do it's own thing. I am going to download the race chrono later and look at the speed traces. It could just be that due to the front tyres being new and I have a decent amount of camber the corner speed is up and this is taking the rear tyres beyond their limit. The rears don't look that bad. I'll set up the string lines and check the alignment as the steering wheel feels a little off centre and I went off at the northern hairpin, so it wouldn't hurt to check. When I ground out the LCA mounts I took out different amounts of material to even up the camber. I never considered I was changing the toe at the same time. I'll remember that for next time. So all in all, the car is faster, probably due to the tyres, but handling is no good. I also managed to set up the manometer. The problem is that there is very little straight track to check the pressures at a steady speed. I did manage to get some readings down the back straight. The oil cooler has about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of water pressure difference front to rear. This is not good, highlighting the need to get air flowing away from the rear of the cooler core. I also measured the area I want to place the vent. The pressure difference between the top of the wheel well(inside) and top of the guard is confirmed at 2 inches of water at about 120kph. Once again there was only a small window to check. It is my belief that if I put a vent at the top of the guard, this should extract air from the inner guard which in turn should help airflow through the cooler. It is worth noting when I turn the fan on whilst parked in the garage there is about 1/8 inch of positive pressure behind the cooler core compared to the front. The fan can pull the temp down quicker static than a cool down lap, so the airflow in this area really needs work. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 76 Reg: 02-2008
| Looks like youve got a bit to sort through, but knowing you your probably in the shed as I type this |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2743 Reg: 04-2006
| Yeah Paul, problem is this time I don't know where to go with the setup. There is a serious toe issue at the rear which I'll fix. I might set up the rear toe to the factory 4mm total toe in (ie 2mm each side). I am also thinking of softening the rear sway bar to try looking after the rears. I was lighting them up badly, and had oversteer on the entry of a couple of corners. The car is set up on skid plates and stringlines etc for alignment. I have taken a bunch of measurements from how the car was last weekend. Front end Roll bar: Hard (only 2 settings) Ride Height (CWG)L: 353mm R: 355mm Camber (deg neg) L: 3.2 R: 3.3 Toe L: 0.3mm in R: 0.6mm in Rear end Roll Bar: Med (3 settings) Ride Height (CWG)L: 336mm R: 336mm Camber (deg neg) L: 1.6 R: 1.75 Toe L: 0.1mm out R: 1.3mm in Happy to hear sugestions. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 77 Reg: 02-2008
| Couple pics for you http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/7761/59bc4979.jpg http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9595/23695ee5.jpg http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/614/6210574c.jpg |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2745 Reg: 04-2006
| Paul that is very close to what I want to do. I have bought some modellers clay to shape the vents (mine will be 3D not 2D) to ensure there is a low pressure area over each 'blade' of the vent so air is drawn out. I have made some adjustments to the rear end. I have 2mm toe in and 1.75 degrees of neg camber each side. Still toying with the idea of taking the rear roll bar to full soft. Might save that for out at the track . |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2750 Reg: 04-2006
| So I wake up this morning and it is cold, miserable, and wet. Wet. Not exactly the desired weather conditions for a time attack event, or a drift event for that matter. Tomorrow is more of the same or worse, so I have decided I'll run the rear sway bar at full soft and see how I go. Basically need to make a decision so I can get the car down, finished prepping and loaded onto the trailer for an early start tomorrow. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2754 Reg: 04-2006
| pissing down Seriously considering going to a 24h servo to buy some fog-X because I removed the aircon/demister setup to save weight |
Carl Mccormack
TryHard QLD '91 Soarer TT
Posts: 115 Reg: 09-2010
| Haha that's priceless I just pictured you driving down the main straight fog-x in hand wiping over you windscreen. |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2868 Reg: 08-2005
| nothing worse than not even being able to see where you are going haha |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2756 Reg: 04-2006
| Actually turned out OK. Practice was very wet, with a 1min42 something The first 'time attack' session was pretty dry. We got 3 flying laps, ie out fast lap and cool down lap, by three. Hard format to get a handle on, as my good times usually come on lap 3,4,5. THis session I ran a 1:min22.4. Second session was only 2 flying laps, with 1:22.5. Unfortunately I didn't get a third, which is a pity as the car felt good and I made a mess of turns 2 and 3. Had issues with fuel surge in the second session. Good news is the blinky dash has stopped blinking on and off. Bad news is it stopped on a Off cycle. Time to ditch the dash, buy a tacho and ditch the fuel tank when something pops up for cheap. There is 25-30L in there I cannot use due to the bloody fuel surge issues. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 78 Reg: 02-2008
| Did you see anymore oversteer after the change in suspension settings ?, Just spoke to Brad seams he had a great day out too |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2757 Reg: 04-2006
| Bit hard to tell with the track and weather the way it was. I would have to say no, the car was much nicer to drive today. No quicker, but much more predictable. Last week it felt like it wanted to kill me. I had some understeer today, but once again, it is hard to figure out how much of that was the conditions. All the oversteer was due the total lack of grip on the wet/dirty track. On the dry runs there was no oversteer |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 79 Reg: 02-2008
| Pic from last round
|
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2765 Reg: 04-2006
| Where do you find these pics? I told you it was wet! |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 80 Reg: 02-2008
| lol Im a Internet troll, Nah I managed to find them thru Brad. FACEBOOK you know that site that you refuse to embrace. |