Author |
Message |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 2054 Reg: 10-2005
| A thicker alloy radiator would be ideal particularly if you intend on increasing HP later on but the factory items are quite good. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2870 Reg: 04-2006
| I agree that a thicker radiator may be needed down the track. I need to look into what the advantage of alloy is over the standard item. I may just get the thing recored seeing as the end tanks are essentially brand new. I suppose they could get a thicker alloy core that fits the factory end tanks. I haven't pulled it out yet to see how it all goes together. I fabbed up a new FMIC mount today. I welded some 1.2mm rectangular box section across the two chassis rails, and then drilled this to fit the lugs and bolt holes in the core. The IC now hangs from this solid mounting, and the piping simply assists in helping locate the bottom. I am going to use some aluminium angle to brace the bottom. The old mounts were just some bent up alloy straps top and bottom, with the IC piping supporting some of the weight. These bent pretty severely, and probably resulted in the radiator getting holed. It probably saved the intercooler core, but given the IC only cost me $99 it is a false economy, and the radiator is much more difficult to replace. I also started work on the new sheet metal ducting for the intercooler and radiator. This time around I am going to build a frame of aluminium angle and then clad this in 0.5mm ally sheetmetal. The design will be a straight venturi from the IC core to the radiator core. The sheetmetal ducting will extend forward to meet the new radiator opening in the yet to be finalised front bar design. The new front bar (design number 3!) will have an opening 600mm wide, and close to 300mm tall, the same dimensions as the IC core. There will be no end tanks on display this time around. The central opening will have brake ducting from either side, like the Ford V8 supercar front bar (but smaller)
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Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2876 Reg: 04-2006
| The sheetmetal ducting for the radiator is now done. Not the best pic, but shiny aluminium is hard to photograph at night.
I go and pick up the polyurethane foam tomorrow to begin shaping the lower half of the front bar. |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 85 Reg: 02-2008
| Good stuff mate, Il check in for updates tomorrow night |
Clayton Carlyle
TryHard NSW v8 soarer twin turbo
Posts: 141 Reg: 04-2009
| Is anybody coming to Superlap this year?? Ben I know your a long flight away but there's gunna be some serious cars there this year. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2877 Reg: 04-2006
| I just picked up my polyurethane foam from Sam at Coolfoam. He donated it to the cause in return for some stickers on the car, so I guess he is my first real sponsor (that I don't live with). I am going to drain the radiator, because I'm fed up with it leaking, and then start to shape the front end. Clayton, I would like to get across to superlap but think I have something else on. Brad Trenwith will be taking his Rx-7 across from down here, so I would have liked to come and see how he went. I'll figure it out closer to the date. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2879 Reg: 04-2006
| Also, got a special gift from Andrew yesterday that will surely help things along. I now have a new undertray so that is one less thing I need to make from scratch. Maybe I need to put his name on the car as well... |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 481 Reg: 06-2008
| Glad it arrived already Ben. You may have to trim it a little as it goes with my wide body front end, but I reckon you'll cope. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2880 Reg: 04-2006
| Cheers Andrew- I just finished sending you an email to say thanks. I got the shaping underway today. It was like playing a weird sort of tetris where you have to invent the shapes to get it all to fit together. Luckily Sam at Coolfoam decided I needed more than I asked for so I have plenty left over if I need to do part of it again. Some progress pics:
I also made some enquiries about an alloy radiator. Nathan (Riceburna on Toymods) from JAR might be able to make one of his radiators for a good price. The temptation is there to buy an ebay cheapie, but at the end of the day it should only cost me a couple of hundred more to buy something quality. I've asked for a price to get a couple made up, so when he gets back to me with the feasibility of doing a run, I'll post up here. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1868 Reg: 07-2005
| Yep i have one of Nathans' radiators in the track bunky - nicely made, although he did have a bit of trouble selling the batch of them he made so he might be a bit reluctant to make any more than a couple of JZZ30 ones unless he has confirmed orders |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2883 Reg: 04-2006
| update pics:
Shaping the foam is a lot easier than I expected. I have been using a saw for big corrections, and a rasp and sureform plane for everything else. Just need to do some more shaping tomorrow, a bit of puttying to radius the corners/joins, and then a layer of fibreglass to tie it all together. Then some more putty to get it nice and smooth then a final coat of resin. Or at least that is how it will go in my head. |
Carl Mccormack
TryHard QLD '91 Soarer TT
Posts: 151 Reg: 09-2010
| As always Ben your skill never cease to amase and inspire me. Couple of quick questions. 1) Is this front bar going to be molded?? So if you brake it you can replace it?? 2) how will your oil and steering coolers get air now? You said I believe brake vents but no other cooling vents? Thanks |
Carl Mccormack
TryHard QLD '91 Soarer TT
Posts: 152 Reg: 09-2010
| Wait I looked closer at the pics forget question 2 |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2885 Reg: 04-2006
| Yeah Carl, I learnt my lesson with one off front bars. This will be the 'plug' from which I make a mold. Then I can make as many front bars as I need. This will also make the final part as light as it can be. I have further opened up the brake vents so they are 2.5 inches in diameter, to match the brake ducting I already have. As for skill, well I can google pretty well, and have a couple of professionals (some of whom are on this forum) who are happy to drip feed me advice when I ask or need it. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2886 Reg: 04-2006
| Progress pics:
We had a 'nice' day here in this freezing wasteland known as South Australia. By nice, I mean the sun was out and the temp got to double figures. Still too bloody cold to make the fibreglass resin go off(hence the heater stuck through the duct), but at least the 'easy sand putty' was going hard. Bloody hard. Another one for the truth in advertising watchdog to investigate. The whole front end is now covered in the stuff. Working with the easy sand putty is initially difficult, then nice and easy for exactly three minutes, and then rapidly goes pear shaped. I found that often I was making up to much of the stuff (it is two pack, as in two ingredients, not the rapper) so that it was beginning to go hard before I had it on the car. The sections where I was on top of it, the surface is nice and neat. The sections where I was racing against time- well the surface looks like a gay pink volcano erupted all over it. When this stuff goes off, there is no saving it. I have some very interesting sculptures on the floor of the shed, and one mildly amusing putty ball. I looked at the sky with its beaming sun and optimistically decided I could probably fibreglass the insided of the foam work to the existing plastic bar section. Wrong! I tried using more catalyst and a heater, but time will tell if the 'glass actually has set and will provide some measure of stability to the project. |
Peter Scott
TryHard South Australia UZZ32 Active V8
Posts: 151 Reg: 08-2005
| Fabulous, we will have to talk seriously about making a copy for my car when you are ready. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2888 Reg: 04-2006
| You really should come and have a look sometime. As for making additional bars, it shouldn't be a problem. The issue might be how I mount it. I still haven't decided on a mounting system yet, but am leaning towards going straight through the front bar into brackets welded to the ends of the chassis rails, and then through the stock mounts near the guards on the sides. It needs to support 85kg (my standard- If I can stand on it it should be OK!). Previously I have used aluminium stays dropped down from the chassis rails and through the splitter. I want to avoid that this time if possible. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2897 Reg: 04-2006
| Another update:
Spent the weekend getting one side shaped to my liking, and then trying to replicate this across to the other side. I have also started to fill the blnker repeaters on the side. No need for them on the track car. |
Allan Langford
TryHard Vic UZZ31
Posts: 479 Reg: 05-2010
| is the left hand side brake duct higher then the drivers side one? |
Clayton Carlyle
TryHard NSW v8 soarer twin turbo
Posts: 146 Reg: 04-2009
| Wooow, Dude well done. That looks nothing short of awesome. |
Clayton Carlyle
TryHard NSW v8 soarer twin turbo
Posts: 147 Reg: 04-2009
| I've gotta say Ben this is incredible work for a home job. You are really pushing the limits now. I don't even want my AC kit anymore, it's starting to look plain. Well done, great work. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2898 Reg: 04-2006
| Alan, yeah it is. I have 'ovalled' it during the sanding and so on. I was going to leave them to the end and then use something to get them both back to properly round. I also want to fit some 63mm pipe to extend out the back to make it easy to fit the ducting hose onto when fitting the bar at the track. I have spent the day sorting the oil cooler ducts out. The drivers side was a massive 30mm narrower and slightly different shape when I transferred a template of the passenger side across. Thanks Clayton. I am beginning to realise just how much work goes into designing a body kit from scratch. I now know why the Aussie kit suppliers just copy the vertex/bomex/etc kits instead of coming up with something new. I also know why fibreglass stuff is so expensive. The materials are pretty cheap, but man there is some labour involved. I still like the AC kit for a street car. This bar is designed to be exactly 100mm off the ground. It would be a pain in the arse to drive on the street. That said I was out there taking some measurements to see what I could do to run a modified version on my road car. I reckon you'd need to lop about an inch, inch and a half off the bottom and run a bar across the bottom of the radiator duct to get you somewhere near the factory bar dimensions. |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2929 Reg: 08-2005
| ben that front is looking great! you should make a few copies are you going to run some canards on the side to make it look really time attack? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2899 Reg: 04-2006
| Aaron, probably not. From what I have read they create a lot of drag for little downforce benefit. They can also rob the rear of the car of down force due to the disturbance they cause. They may even raise the air pressure right where I am exploiting the low pressure above the wheel arch to get the air out from behind the oil coolers. They are the sort of thing that really needs to be tested. Preferably in a wind tunnel. I will be running end plates on the front splitter again though. These can greatly increase the downforce generated through the front splitter, and have minimal downstream impact. I have yet another book on race car aerodynamics coming that hopefully deals with sedans/coupes/sportcars a bit more. I have however made the sides of the bar flat (vertical) so that if I want to run canards/dive planes later I can pretty easily. |
Drew Rechner
DieHard South Australia JZZ30 TT
Posts: 541 Reg: 10-2007
| That bar is a pure race bar. Looks freakin unreal! |
Nathan Richardson
DieHard N.T. UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)
Posts: 546 Reg: 02-2006
| Great work Ben, your skills are impressive champ! I'd be keen for a copy if one ever became available. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo North Island JZZ31
Posts: 6412 Reg: 10-2005
| Sounds like it could be the start of a back yard business! |
Allan Langford
TryHard Vic UZZ31
Posts: 480 Reg: 05-2010
| If your are going to use it to make a mold I would of actually leave the side flat into the intercooler and then after you make your copy just hole saw where you want the ducts in the final piece (also angling the ducts will reduce the chances of ducting a stone into your disc / caliper), this would make it much easier to separate later on
Ben Lipman wrote on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 09:02 pm:Alan, yeah it is. I have 'ovalled' it during the sanding and so on. I was going to leave them to the end and then use something to get them both back to properly round. I also want to fit some 63mm pipe to extend out the back to make it easy to fit the ducting hose onto when fitting the bar at the track.
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Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2902 Reg: 04-2006
| Thanks for the suggestion Alan. I am a fair way down this track so I'll see how it goes. The whole area there is actually sculpted into a venturi of sorts and is forward of the intercooler to allow me room to route the duct around the end tanks. I have tried to keep in mind the draught of the front bar and constantly visualise how it is going to be in the mold. As you have said it may be tricky to separate the bars from the mold. I may need to keep the actual brake ducts quite short in the mold and then add on to them on the finished piece. I want the bars to come out of the mold close to ready to use, with out to much additional work. I have already decided I cannot do the undertray as part of this mold, and may actually do the splitter in two pieces as well. The top of the splitter from this mold and the bottom with the reinforcing material in another. It is all a learning experience for me. I still dislike fibreglass, putty, and all those stinky chemical smells. And I HATE sanding.
Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 07:45 am:Sounds like it could be the start of a back yard business!
Not on your life. I don't know how you'd turn a profit. If I paid myself $75 an hour for labour, I'd need to charge myself several thousand for this bar alone. Any rate I need to go one step at a time. I still need to finish this plug and take a successful mold from it. From everything I have read this is where all the problems present themselves. If I get through that stage, then producing a bar from the mold should be pretty straight forward. (Andrew is probably laughing his head off right about now.) I have talked to a mate about doing doors and guards. They would be fairly simple compared to this. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 86 Reg: 08-2008
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Ben Lipman wrote on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:22 pm:I just picked up my polyurethane foam from Sam at Coolfoam. He donated it to the cause in return for some stickers on the car, so I guess he is my first real sponsor (that I don't live with).
Well done Ben, this is how sponsorship works at our level. Your plug is looking great. Considering this is the first time you have ever made a plug it is fantastic. I know about the sanding, have done it for wind tunnel models where you have to get the surface ultra smooth on account of the roughness factor in the Reynolds number. my $0.02 ... Think about a multiple piece mould. You can use lines of plasticine at 90deg to the surface to create the joint when you make the mould. Then when you put the mould together, you fill the seams with plasticine to even out the surface. Multiple pieces make it easy to remove by allowing you to pull different parts off at different angles from such a complicated shape. Make the bolt holes for the mould joints before you pull it off the plug. Reinforce the mould to buggery - use the left over foam and glass over it - the stiffer it is, the better your produced part will be. Think about making a jig to hold it so that it sits flat on the floor for the lay up - this will make your life much easier - and use the jig as part of the reinforcement, bolting to the same places that you create the joints. Get all the advice you can from the pros about the mould release. This is where I have stuffed up in the past. Separating a mould from the part can be a real bugger. Maybe even think about putting an air port or two in the mould to blow it apart - second thoughts, it is better to pump water in, far less dangerous! cheers michael |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2903 Reg: 04-2006
| I have read a bit about using plasticine to create multi piece moulds. How would you break up the mould? I had a look tonight whilst cooking the Barbie- nothing jumped out at me as the obvious place to do it. Perhaps into thirds across ways using the edge of the centre opening? Otherwise into thirds vertically with the splitter, vertical surface with all the ducts, and then the curved headlight section? I like the idea, but worry about the execution. It would certainly make storing and moving the mould easier. Totally agree on making the mould rigid. It makes sense to me. I want to make a frame so it is 'boxed' meaning I can work on it at whatever angle is most convenient. Q: mold or mould? I have used both in this thread and both look wrong. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 87 Reg: 08-2008
|
Ben Lipman wrote on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 07:24 pm:I have read a bit about using plasticine to create multi piece moulds. How would you break up the mould? I had a look tonight whilst cooking the Barbie- nothing jumped out at me as the obvious place to do it. Perhaps into thirds across ways using the edge of the centre opening? Otherwise into thirds vertically with the splitter, vertical surface with all the ducts, and then the curved headlight section?
It is a bit of a suck it and see kind of thing. It really depends on the shape. If you have curved surfaces that wrap around multiple axes, it is simply not possible to have a one piece mould, when you try to pull it off it is wrapped around the part. Don't look at it in a "how can i divide this mould up conveniently" kind of way - think about making it as easy as possible to get the part out.
Ben Lipman wrote on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 07:24 pm: Q: mold or mould? I have used both in this thread and both look wrong.
Mould it is. We speak and write the Queen's English here. Damn seppos and their inability to spell. Next thing you know, you will be telling me the color of something is gray |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2904 Reg: 04-2006
| The primer is a gray color, sort of like dull aluminum. LOL You were supposed to tell me exactly what to do! I'll figure it out, I guess. When I go to start the mould it'll just come to me. It always does when it it is go time. Until I really need to think about it I just get white noise. Plenty of sanding and filling before that. I want to get the plug as near perfect as I can. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2905 Reg: 04-2006
| All right. Some more update pics.
After a week of filling and sanding the easy sand putty (over 4kg so far) I have got the plug to the stage where I need to see it in primer to decide what to do next. The passenger side oil cooler duct still needs some work- it needs to taper up slightly on the outside to match the drivers. The brake ducts are also in need of some further attention to get them perfectly round and nicely smooth. At some stage I need to remove the plug from the front of the car and remove the tow hook and fill that hole. (in hindsight this should have happened a two weeks ago). I am happy with the rest of it and reckon it is good enough to go on a track car. I spent some time today radiusing all the edges so they are a minimum of 12mm, in some cases 20mm, to give it some strength and make it easier to pull the part from the mould. |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2938 Reg: 08-2005
| looking very mean!! hopefully it works aswell as it looks! |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2908 Reg: 04-2006
| Thanks Aaron. It is funny, I didn't set out to design something that looks good. I put all the coolers in place and put holes in front of them. Then I found the easiest way to route the brake ducting and put holes there. The only thing I could play around with was the brake ducts. They were originally going to go off from the cooler at an angle (about 45 deg like the ford pic) but I figured that would be very hard to get a mould that would allow me to do that. I could have done a simple box for the intercooler and then put the brake holes either side, but I thought I needed some depth and angles to create strength. The three cooler ducts are deliberately smaller than the cooler core they feed. Reading up on ducting in 'race car aerodynamics' you should aim to expand the space between the duct and core as this helps build a high pressure area in front of the cooler and thus aid in getting air to flow through to a hopefully low pressure area behind it. So what you end up with is a pretty basic function over form shape. I reshaped the passenger side duct and fixed the drivers brake duct this arvo. The whole thing is now covered in spray putty. Tomorrow night I'll give it a sand and fix any blemishes. This could go on for days. Still need to deal with that tow hook...
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Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 88 Reg: 08-2008
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Ben Lipman wrote on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 08:13 pm:This could go on for months.
only if you want perfection! |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2946 Reg: 08-2005
| hahahaha yeah but least you can be proud you have designed a bar that does actually look really good not like a veilside design lol hopefully you can work out a way to reproduce it sucessfully are you still running the vertex style skirts? how does the bar line up with them? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2909 Reg: 04-2006
| Still running what I think are Vertex copy side skirts. They were given to me. The bar will line up height wise I think. Close enough for my purposes. The skirts have a different profile than the front bar. That is: the skirts flare out a bit from the sills where as the front bar has vertical sides. Michael, I hope not. At some stage I need to call it quits and just make something I can use. That time is fast approaching. Lucky nothing on TV holds my attention. I go to sleep at night thinking of that damn front bar. It is the first thing I think of in the morning. I have even caught myself going out to check if any well meaning fairies have rubbed it back for me overnight. I might need counselling. |
Nathan Richardson
DieHard N.T. UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)
Posts: 557 Reg: 02-2006
| Absolutely awesome champ!!!
Ben Lipman wrote on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 08:13 pm:The three cooler ducts are deliberately smaller than the cooler core they feed. Reading up on ducting in 'race car aerodynamics' you should aim to expand the space between the duct and core as this helps build a high pressure area in front of the cooler and thus aid in getting air to flow through to a hopefully low pressure area behind it.
Yeah, this lies in the world of Bernoulli's principle and the relationship between static and dynamic pressure. I am not sure of the air flow in the wheel well but I would assume with the vents in the guard and smooth airflow past the wheel, that the static pressure in the wheel well would be lower than ambient. The expansion prior to the cooler would give a higher static pressure in that area allowing better cooling (lower dynamic pressure, airflow is moving past the cooler slower). I would guess that you are after a low pressure in the wheel well to provide down force? If airflow was only through the cooler vent, once it got to the wheel well the static pressure would increase further as it expands in that area. The only way to tell is to hook up the water tubes once you have the new bar on and see. You might have to use a blocker plate behind the cooler to achieve this further. Either way, your are on a winner! Bloody good effort!!! |
Nathan Richardson
DieHard N.T. UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)
Posts: 558 Reg: 02-2006
| Oh, and for the record, rear "diffusers" are a misnomer in Bernoulli's principle terms! However in the world of Sir Isaac Newton and Henri Coanda, they make perfect sense! |
Dan McColl
Goo Roo Victoria (The Nazi State) Pretty Red Thing and The Black Beast
Posts: 2941 Reg: 07-2005
|
Ben Lipman wrote on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 08:13 pm: you should aim to expand the space between the duct and core as this helps build a high pressure area in front of the cooler and thus aid in getting air to flow through to a hopefully low pressure area behind it.
Divergent duct, actually has more to do with slowing the airflow so it has more time to take the heat out of the cooler and work more effectively. Looks awesome, By the way. I might need you to make me one as well. |
Nathan Richardson
DieHard N.T. UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)
Posts: 559 Reg: 02-2006
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Dan McColl wrote on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 10:11 pm:Divergent duct, actually has more to do with slowing the airflow so it has more time to take the heat out of the cooler and work more effectively.
Hey, that's what I said!!! Kinda?
Nathan Richardson wrote on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 10:00 pm:The expansion prior to the cooler would give a higher static pressure in that area allowing better cooling (lower dynamic pressure, airflow is moving past the cooler slower).
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Dan McColl
Goo Roo Victoria (The Nazi State) Pretty Red Thing and The Black Beast
Posts: 2944 Reg: 07-2005
| I hadn't seen your post when I typed mine, but yes, it's what you said. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 482 Reg: 06-2008
| Ben, go here for some pics of a mold build up (mould is the stuff that grows in your shower): http://www.sportssedans.com.au/forum1/index.php?a=topic&t=403 |