Author |
Message |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2918 Reg: 04-2006
| Will you two boys sort it out. Mould. Mold. Analogue shape transferring device. Whatever. lol I just ordered the 'Glassfibre Handbook' last night and will probably buy competition car composites as well just to round out the library. I am taking a time out from working on the car to get some more knowledge under the belt. I had a bit of a drama the other day- we had some warm days so I did a little fibreglass reinforcing of the join between old and new- and the heat from the resin warped the original bumper plastic meaning I have a bit of recovery work to do. Some of those pics look all to familiar. What was the material they were using to brace the mold (mould)? I am still looking for ideas on how to break my mould up. I wanted to go talk to the local fibreglass kit maker, but he seems to have moved or gone bust. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 90 Reg: 08-2008
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Ben Lipman wrote on Saturday, August 06, 2011 - 09:21 am:What was the material they were using to brace the mould?
Fixed it for you. Polyurethane foam that comes in sheets with cuts 98% of the way through so that you can mould it to the shape of the curved plug (or mould in the case of use in a finished part) ^ he never paid attention to spelling at school - unless you count how to spell girls and party |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 483 Reg: 06-2008
| Bruce the fibreglass expert with over 30 years experience under his belt (and not just a university thesis) says it is mold. M O L D. So mold it is. Go with the workers Ben, not the theorists. |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 91 Reg: 08-2008
| Huh, I went on a course with Bruce, the teacher was a yank no wonder he still can't spell it right He also told us that you had to put the gelcoat on "30 mils thick". This got the heads scratching until he realised that meant 30 millimetres to the students - what he meant is what we call 30 thou i.e. 0.030". Ah divided by a common language. Like the French politician said - we all know it works in practice, but does it work in theory? cheers michael |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2920 Reg: 04-2006
| You know there are bugger all pictures of the actual molds on the net. I have been searching every night using various terms (fibreglass mould, mold, multi piece mold, fibreglass front bar mold, so on and so forth). I just want a bunch of different pictures of how guys have managed their molds of similar projects so I can get some good ideas. PS sorry Michael, he got me with the workers thing... |
Leon Wright
Goo Roo WA 4WD Hilux
Posts: 1208 Reg: 08-2006
| Have you tried youtube? http://goo.gl/DY4qR |
Michael McKellar
Tinkerer Overijssel Mini
Posts: 92 Reg: 08-2008
| Hey Ben good site here that shows a mould being made by "the workers" (guess they also speak the Queen's English in the UK still ) http://www.henleycraft.co.uk/RaceCar/Racing%20Car%20Project.htm Notice how they made it in six separate parts with "parting flanges" added, and that the moulds have steel reinforcing that also forms a handle for ease of use. There are a couple of V8stupidcar moulds for sale here http://www.competitioncomponents.com/bodywork.htm Might have been able to save a whole lot of trouble and just bought one of these to adapt. Kind of hard to see if they are flanged at the front where the front edge of the splitter is, but they both have different ways of doing the vents. cheers michael |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2958 Reg: 08-2005
| hey ben saw this at superlap thought you might get some inspiration/laughter lol
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Ali Saeed
Goo Roo WA UZZ31
Posts: 3611 Reg: 09-2007
| oh dear thats hideous..i hope that front spoiler works really really well.. |
Clayton Carlyle
TryHard NSW v8 soarer twin turbo
Posts: 151 Reg: 04-2009
| Ali that's one of the fastest time attack cars on the planet. Actually after going to superlap on the weekend all normal cars start to look very plain. I've never seen so many amazing cars in one place at one time. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1893 Reg: 07-2005
| Ben i can take a pic of my old mans bonnet mold if you want... its basically wood beams and blocks nailed and fibreglassed around the mold itself. I can only imagine you would do a front bar one the same way, although it would by necessity be more complicated |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo Victoria UZZ32
Posts: 2080 Reg: 10-2005
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Aaron Casey wrote on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 11:56 pm:hey ben saw this at superlap thought you might get some inspiration/laughter lol
That has some serious airflow and downforce. |
Dan McColl
Goo Roo Victoria (The Nazi State) Pretty Red Thing and The Black Beast
Posts: 2991 Reg: 07-2005
| Looks like they have finally caught up with 1980's rally technology. Look up Group B Rally on youtube if you don't know what I mean. |
Christian Somerville
Goo Roo South Australia UZZ31 V8 LTD
Posts: 1341 Reg: 03-2009
| Looks similar to the HKS time attack Evo |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2972 Reg: 08-2005
| The hks ct230r was there too if you want i can post some more pics up ben or try make some other thread without spamming yours ben |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 486 Reg: 06-2008
| Hope you'll be at Wakefield this weekend Aaron. |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2978 Reg: 08-2005
| you guys coming down??? what day please dont say sunday please dont say sunday!!! lol |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2921 Reg: 04-2006
| Might as well post them up Aaron, I've got nothing to put up. My limited understanding of aerodynamics struggles to come to terms with that front end. I have read countless articles about how much a simple wing mount can rob a wing of efficiency, particularly the underside. I can only imagine that having an airdam directly behind a wing, along with a splitter directly below it cant be good. Don't get me wrong- the whole thing might have been slowly put together and tested in a wind tunnel. Of course they might just be having a stab at it and have a good budget... With my front bar my current issue is how to break it up into sensible pieces for the moulding process. I understand the need to brace it. I just don't have a mental picture of what I am going to do when it comes to taking a mould of the plug. I would like to have the mould done in several small pieces if for no other reason than easy transport and storage when it is not being used. I have looked at quite a few youtube clips, but haven't found anything directly related to what i am doing. I am willing to concede my search technique is kinda |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2980 Reg: 08-2005
| you cant talk to a bodykit manufacturer see how they make their moulds?? ok few pics for ya ben..
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Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2981 Reg: 08-2005
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Drew Rechner
DieHard South Australia JZZ30 TT
Posts: 546 Reg: 10-2007
| I don't know what it is about Time Attack cars.... but F*CK they are gorgeous!!!! |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2982 Reg: 08-2005
| yeah they sure are drew. ben one thing that seems pretty consistant is the use of an abundant of canards on any car that is quick.. so there must be a good chance they arent making too much drag or the bigger companies would have sussed them out.. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2924 Reg: 04-2006
| Aaron- there is plenty of literature about canards. I know because I am attempting to read it all! In a lot of cases they actually reduce the total downforce generated by the entire car, BUT move the aero balance towards the front where it is arguably better employed. The reason for the reduction is the mess with the airflow down stream (ie where the big downforce producing wing sits). There are a host of other benefits and drawbacks depending on what you are looking for. They can produce useful effects for cooling vents around the front guards, or mess with an already established system. What I have gleaned from the literature is that quite a lot of big budget teams simply 'suck it and see' pretty often. The difference is they have the money and resources to effectively test their ideas. The reason TA cars look good it they are purposeful. There is very little 'bling' added. Supercars look good mostly because they are purposeful. Except Lambos. They look good because they are plain crazy... |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2985 Reg: 08-2005
| Yeah i think the problem is trying to find the right amount or angles to get the desired result. What if you strengthen one bar you make and make up a few cheap aluminium canards to throw on a spare bar you make from your mould and could try.. If it doesnt work can just take the canards off.. If you were closer id give ya a hand trying to make some lol My total lack of knowledge but would you be more suited for a slimline car for high speed tracks and maybe more canard/aero possible for shorter twistier tracks to help at lower speeds to focus more on cornering? |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 487 Reg: 06-2008
|
Aaron Casey wrote on Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - 07:05 pm: you guys coming down??? what day please dont say sunday please dont say sunday!!! lol
State Champs on all weekend Aaron. We'll be there Saturday and Sunday. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 488 Reg: 06-2008
| Oh, and this Soarer is entered in the Sports Sedans...
|
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2986 Reg: 08-2005
| Nice ill be coming out on saturday then is it free entry? Just so i know if i have to bring more cash haha and my number is 0423797323 if ya wanna send us a message when you are free saturday |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 489 Reg: 06-2008
| Dunno about the cost mate. Last time it was free, but last year it wasn't... |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2989 Reg: 08-2005
| ah k well ill be there tomorrow anyway so keep a lookout for my boof head |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2925 Reg: 04-2006
|
Aaron Casey wrote on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 12:07 am:What if you strengthen one bar you make and make up a few cheap aluminium canards to throw on a spare bar you make from your mould and could try
I actually have a carbon fibre canard from a West Race Car. They are incredibly simple devices when you look at the part on its own. I will probably mess around with the canards at some stage down the track. I have a bunch of other things that need seeing to first... |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 86 Reg: 02-2008
| Ben check this Blog out http://nr11.biz/blogfest/?p=25 |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2932 Reg: 04-2006
| Been a while since I last updated this thread. I have been kept busy with work, but on the upside this has generated a little much needed cash to allow me to buy some parts. I now have, sitting on the bench, a pair of Munroe Racing Turbochargers highflowed CT12As, six new super spark coils (old ones aren't stuffed, but with two JZZ30s it is only a matter of time), an order for a new alloy radiator and I am working towards having the cash to buy a decent standalone computer around christmas time (and warmer temperatures) for a full on assault on the track car. I have been reading as much as I can about fibreglassing etc. I had a small drama a while back and the fibreglass I put in the back of the bar to join the original section to the new work caused significant swelling in the plastic of the original bar when I put it out in the sun. That has taken a significant amount of my time to try and rectify, and I have learnt a lesson about adding catalyst to offset the stupid cold temperatures when fibreglassing. I'd love to report I learnt a lesson about patience as well, but I would be lying. I'm sure I'll mess something else up with impatience before this is done...
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Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 88 Reg: 02-2008
| another good link http://www.fiberglassforums.com/automotive-exterior/14558-making-mold-my-front-bumper-need-help.html |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 89 Reg: 02-2008
| http://www.fiberglassforums.com/automotive-exterior/14558-making-mold-my-front-bumper-need-help-8.ht ml#post176885 |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2942 Reg: 04-2006
| Hey mate- been flat out. I haven't had time to scratch myself, let alone come back to this. Still trying to sort out a new radiator in the meantime. I am getting to the critical point where I'll have to dump the "group buy" thing on Toymods and buy one of the second hand jobbies I have been offered. SASupra are running a dyno day in mid November I am keen to go to and I need it running more than I need it to have a bumper. Not sure when this stops being a hobby and just becomes hard work...LOL. I have bitten off a lot more than I can fit in my mouth, let alone chew. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo WA '91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1922 Reg: 07-2005
| That scenario sounds familiar Ben, ive had to stop myself several times from tackling a major/time-consuming modification because an event is looming! Its kinda frustrating... |
Paul Kalie
Tinkerer NSW TT
Posts: 90 Reg: 02-2008
| Expect to see some movement in this thread in the next week !! No excuses now Ben |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 497 Reg: 06-2008
| Yeah Ben. Time's up. Not that I can talk |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2947 Reg: 04-2006
| All right, all right. Have you guys seen my youtube channel? http://www.youtube.com/user/MrBen12a?feature=mhee That was meant as a distraction. I do have some time on my hands in the coming months, and a fresh perspective. I have read numerous books and articles, and been saving hard. I have ordered an alloy radiator and it should be here this week. That will get the build restarted. From there it will be start-able and I can get it to a dyno to see what power it puts out. Then it will be time to fit the new coils, highflow turbos and so on. I will be talking to Simon at Morpowa about buying and tuning an aftermarket computer, most likely a Haltech. Bryce from APDA has been in touch and is hooking me up with a set of his Intima Type D pads at cost for the Supra calipers. I'll try them next time out. These are the next step up from the Intima SR6300s I have been using with much success. The question will be: is the higher temp range suitable for time attack? I hope the answer is yes, as they have a bit more bite on offer. Last but not least, I am getting back to the dreaded fibreglass work. It is time to get started on the mould, and then knock out a front bar or two. Eyeing up the doors I reckon they will be less work than doing a custom front end...I mean the door is there already, I just need to take a mould. How hard can it be... |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2949 Reg: 04-2006
| Radiator arrived today. Got distracted...ended up in an all out war on pigeons. They are in the shed again, and there was all over both cars. Spent way to much time destroying nests, making wire mesh screens, and filling gaps with polyurethane foam. I did manage to do a final touch up of the front bumper, give it a final sand and coat it with two coats of polyurethane gloss. I have decided a less than perfect front bumper is better than no front bumper. Tomorrow I hope to decide how and where to place and then build the flanges. The links from Paul are helping heaps. |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2954 Reg: 04-2006
| So I got heaps done this week: I fixed the bulging area, and gave the whole thing two coats of polyurethane lacquer.
I then set about taking a mould of the thing. I broke it into three main parts, hoping that it should release ok. I used some scrap .5mm ally sheeting and clay to create the dams for the joining flanges. The fibreglass shop had some fancy blue gel coat they wanted to get rid of cheap...
I then proceeded to glass that section and repeat on either side. I added a frame to use as a stand later on, and bracing etc. The backside of the flanges (all five!) took some imagination.
All that is left to do is figure out what to do with the underside of the splitter. I am tempted to take a mould of the topside of the splitter and then flip it over. |
Andrew McKellar
TryHard NSW Soarer Sports Sedan (well, nearly)
Posts: 500 Reg: 06-2008
| Excellent work as usual Ben!! I might have to start buying front spoilers off you... Wouldn't the underside of the splitter be taken care of by the undertray? |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2955 Reg: 04-2006
| Lets just wait and see what it looks like on the inside before getting too exited. I just hope it parts OK. I have spoken to the local fibreglass shop about buying in bulk- at this rate I might actually get through a 30kg roll (about 200m of 450gsm chopped strand matt). There is about 10m of matt and tissue in the mould alone. The mould is not as thick as some I have seen on the net- half an inch (12.7mm) is a lot of fibreglass! FGI literature suggests 2 times as thick as the part you want to produce. It has been suggested two layers of 450 gram matt is sufficient for a front spoiler. I have about 4-5 layers in the mould depending on the location. Some areas around the bracing etc have upto 7 layers. The front spoiler is very deep. The undertray you very generously gave me (never did sort you out for freight...you owe me an email, Andrew) is 600m deep give or take. The spoiler is closer to 850mm deep so I need to marry the undertray to the underside of the splitter. I could (and probably will) extend the undertray to fit the spoiler, but I still need a return of some sort to give me somewhere to attach it to. I need to cut and shut the undertray as mine is nowhere as wide as your car. I spent some time looking at the doors last night. The outside moulding is a no brainer- simply take off the exterior door handle and glass over the lot. The inside is much trickier. The way I see it is there are two choices: 1. Use all the factory hardware and therefore there is a need to build some additional strength into the striker plane and hinge mounts. I think significant reinforcement is needed in the hinge area due to the massive hinges and the forces they could be generating. 2. Bin the factory hinges and make something custom based around a drop in gate hinge design. This would eliminate the spring forces from the factory hinge as well as save what I guess is a significant amount of weight. I could also easily remove the doors should the need arise. Unfortunately it also adds a fair degree of complexity to the job. The missus just looked at me like I was insane when I mentioned I might be doing the doors as well. It might take some time as I need to make sure I don't spend too much time on the car. Gotta get this work/family/sports/hobbies balance just right... |
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo SA Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car
Posts: 2956 Reg: 04-2006
| Actually I just added it all up. There is closer to 13m of matt in the mould. I plan to let the mould cure on the plug for this week and look at parting it on the weekend. Everything I have read says the longer you can leave the mould on the plug the better. Unfortunately I really want to get the car into the Mallanats on the 10th of December so I can bolt the supra passenger seat in and take the eldest boy around the track on the cruise circuit. Might do some skids as well. He is at the age where he would probably like it. To do this, I need to make the first front bar this weekend and let that cure for a week, before pulling it out and figuring out how to mount it. |
Dan McColl
Goo Roo Victoria (The Nazi State) Pretty Red Thing and The Black Beast
Posts: 3103 Reg: 07-2005
| I hate chop mat. Make it out of woven mat, so much nicer to work with. Looks awesome mate. If you ever get to it I'd be keen to buy a couple of bars off you. |