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Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

Posts: 3881
Reg: 04-2006

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Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 12:18 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was wrong with the wheel sizes earlier. The rear is 17x10 ET40. Fronts 17x9 ET38 (with a 15mm spacer). See what happens if you actually go read the wheel instead of guessing.

I am keeping my eye out for some 18inch rims with about a 35 - 40 offset. Hopefully 10 - 10.5 inches wide.

The first thing laid up will be a drivers door skin. I am actually going to do two, to test the strength and lightness of both the Soric/carbon sandwich (which will be very stiff) and just 3 layers of carbon like the other panels (which may be a little flimsy on such a wide, flat panel with little shape to give stiffness).

Might happen this weekend depending on what else is happening. Little fellas birthday on Friday.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Friday, January 09, 2015 - 04:56 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This wax on, wax off is becoming tedious. 6 coats so far. Probably give it a few more coats just to be sure, as I intend to make the test part without PVA mould release. Should make for a nicer finish, but at higher risk.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 05:48 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drivers door skin test piece number 1 has been laid up. Plenty of drama, and due to this I have learnt a lot. CLiffs: the resin feed and vacuum lines MUST be sitting on the Soric core matting.

After 10 coats of wax, I laid down the carbon fibre cloth using spray adhesive to keep it in place. This is not necessary, but I find it helps.

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Next I laid the Lantor Soric SF core down. This had been previously cut to size and shape. I do not want the Soric to run all the way to the edges, as I want that nice carbon rolled edge look.

Following that, the second layer of carbon fibre cloth went down.

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I then started to place the resin feed and vacuum lines. These are 6mm spiral wrap like you would use to tidy up wiring etc. They deliver the resin across the part and draw air/resin out of the part on the vacuum pump end of the operation.

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Butyl rubber sealing tape (tacky tape) is run around the edges of the flange and the vacuum bag laid over the mould and sealed to the tape. Pleats are made around the part to allow the bag to fill all the voids in the mould. This is another thing that did not work properly on the test piece. I am not sure why as the mould is essentially flat with little depth. Regardless, next time will have more small pleats around the part to avoid 'bridging'. (You can see evidence of bridging in he bag where one pleat on the bottom left of picture has bridged right across the part to a pleat on the mid left where the mirror would sit in the pic above)

When everything was ready to go, the pump was turned on and all air drawn out of the mould. I did not quite get a 100% seal but did manage to pull minus 13 psi which is not too bad.

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The resin was mixed and fed into the part. This is when I realised I had problems. After 10 minutes very little had happened. The resin started to go off in the pot after 30 minutes because it was not spread out through the mould. The resin is about $40/L so this made me...sad. I added another feed line and got things moving, slowly, but it all stalled about 1/3 the way across the part.

There is 3m of carbon in the door skin. At $100/m (by the time it is laid) I decided I could not afford to waste the part. I cut the bag and moved the resin lines onto the actual door skin. I also added a new resin line and moved the vacuum line. I resealed the bag, pulled a vacuum and plugged the leaks. During all this the carefully laid out carbon cloth so it was nicely aligned got disturbed, so I have no idea how the 'face' will look. Eventually the new resin was mixed and fed into the lines. This new setup flowed well and seemed to wet out the carbon nicely.

The whole lot was left out in the Canberra Sun...where it got very wet in the ensuing rain shower. Why did I not bring it in you ask? Because having used all of the available spiral wrap and 6mm plastic tubing in my entire house, I needed to buy more. So I left the mould in bright sunshine and went to the local industrial area in search of supplies.

Hopefully I have learnt enough for the next test piece to go smoother. It will be 3 layers of carbon only. This is how I have made the other panels, but I have noticed it lacks a little rigidity on the wider flatter panels without some profile to give it a decent cross section. The factory skeleton took care of this on the bonnet and boot giving the piece a deep cross section, however the doors only have the one crease along their length. I will decide which method to use based on a weight versus stiffness comparison. The frames will get the Soric core regardless, for they must be stiff as they carry the weight on the hinges, and must absorb the loads of the door latch action plus being slammed shut etc.
Michael McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Mini

Posts: 140
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Saturday, January 17, 2015 - 01:47 pm, by:  Michael McKellar (Mickmini) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just popped around and saw the next door in production. Ben has done a great job with the first door. It is extremely light and stiff, the surface finish on the outside is great. It is in fact perfect for a race/track car.

well done

michael
Michael McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Mini

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Saturday, January 17, 2015 - 05:34 pm, by:  Michael McKellar (Mickmini) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like how this guy uses the upside down router with guide bearings to trim his parts. Might make somethings easier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URpiZcHpO5A
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Saturday, January 17, 2015 - 09:34 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is neat. I have a router table out in the shed I have used for similar purposes in woodworking.

I went out and bought new filters for that mask after talking to you, and some air line fittings to bodge up a better vac line to the big pump. I tried it out on the vac setup as you saw it and it immediately pulled a vacuum right off the gauge. Huge power. Much promise. Me like.

I ended up starting to repair that mould. Just little bits here and there, but it is a start.

For everyone playing at home, I laid up the second door skin this morning. Went perfectly, no drama what so ever. It did use a lot more resin than I expected, a little over 2kg for the 500g of carbon cloth in the part. Hopefully most of this is in the peel ply, mesh and resin lines and will leave a skin that weighs less than the 2kg of the previous one. Still, at $50 per kilo of epoxy, I am very aware that this door skin cost $450 to make. I'll say it again, not a cheap hobby.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Sunday, January 18, 2015 - 05:13 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I pulled the second door skin from the mould this afternoon. After rough trimming, it weighs in at 1380 grams. This is 600grams lighter than the soric cored door skin. It is a lot 'floppier' than the soric core as well. When I make the door frames up, I'll fit the skin to a frame, but my gut feeling is they are too flimsy for 200kph cars. To flimsy to sell, any way.

Soric has a lot less resin wastage too. 2kg of resin and 500 grams of carbon went into the mould, and the piece weighs 1.4kg. THis means around 1kg of resin was wasted using the conventional pure carbon/peel ply/ mesh method.

So soric cored door skins it is.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 09:51 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I laid up the passenger door frame yesterday. Not much to report. Everything went fine. I am going to exercise some patience with this one and leave it in the mould for a week. No rush to get it out, and seeing as this gives the door skin its structure, it is vital it is the correct shape.

I have run completely out of resin. I had to dismantle pumps and empty all the containers to scrape together enough hardener to make this frame. I think it is time to buy a 24L bulk pack. A door is consuming over 4L to make, and there has to be some savings to be found buying in bulk. Just need to find out how much this will sting me. $600? $700? I saw some on ebay for $685 plus freight from Vic. 4.8L is costing about $180, so $900 for 24L when bought this way. If the local shop can do around $700 I'd be happy to pay as it still represents a $200 saving.


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The final mould needs a lot of work. It is the one I had all the dramas with, running out of chopped strand mat and trying to use the heavy woven roving instead. It shows. There are air pockets, gelcoat bleed through, and other faults that all need filling and sanding to rectify. I think I will need to sand the entire mould and give it a few coats of polyurethane clear to get a decent finish on it. I am almost considering doing another mould, except that door has been sitting out in the weather for 4 weeks now and would be a lot of work to prep again.
Andrew McKellar
DieHard
NSW
V8 Soarer Sports Sedan

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Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 10:01 pm, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice work on the doors, nevertheless.

Give me the resin details, I'll see what I can get for you. Might be able to get Michael to deliver it to you too.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Monday, January 26, 2015 - 05:45 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am using west system 105 epoxy and 206 slow hardener. A 24L pack would be a 20L epoxy and 4L hardener. I will call the local shop this week to see what they can do.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 08:49 am, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been away a fair bit in the last two weeks, only getting home for a night here and there. I pulled the inner door frame from it's mould and trimmed it roughly to shape. It needs some final trimming and shaping to get it to fit perfectly into the outer door skin.

I am still considering my bonding options. I normally use sikaflex 262(or whatever the number is for the fibreglass specific adhesive). This is pretty expensive, very messy, a bit heavy, but does a great job. (The carbon/epoxy fails before the adhesive). I am considering using micro balloons to make a paste out of the epoxy and use that. It seems to be what most people do to bond their parts. The bond would be rigid, not slightly flexible like the sikaflaex. Not sure if that is good or not.

Here are some pics of the frame laid in the skin so it looks like a door.

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I am off again today. I'll start the trimming etc when I am next in the shed.
Andrew McKellar
DieHard
NSW
V8 Soarer Sports Sedan

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Saturday, February 07, 2015 - 09:01 am, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks great Ben. I'd go with Sikaflex. Doors will always be vibrating and moving around. Better to go with the flexible option even if it weighs a few grams more.
Paul Kalie
TryHard
NSW
TT

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 12:23 pm, by:  Paul Kalie (Ajzs) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATES PLEASE :-)
Michael McKellar
TryHard
NSW
Mini

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 02:29 pm, by:  Michael McKellar (Mickmini) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well i can tell you i dropped off some resin last week.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 04:22 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately my boss expects me to work for my wages, so I have not been home much lately. I have been slowly chipping away at the last mould getting it to a workable condition.

The good news is thanks to Michael and Andrew I have plenty of resin to go on with when I do get some time.

I have also purchased 5m of Kevlar to play with as well. Standby for a frustrated rant about how hard the stuff is to cut after I fist try and use it.
Andrew McKellar
DieHard
NSW
V8 Soarer Sports Sedan

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 07:37 pm, by:  Andrew McKellar (Toymax) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Lipman wrote on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 04:22 pm:

after I fist




You're doing it wrong
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Monday, February 16, 2015 - 09:20 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben Lipman
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SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 10:09 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Home for a long weekend. Got into the shed over the last few nights and made a complete mess of a couple hundred dollars of carbon and resin. It was supposed to be the drivers side door frame. For some reason the resin would not draw through the carbon. The carbon is a new roll and the weave seems looser. The resin feed/vac lines are from a new supplier as well. One of them is causing me issues, or else I have simply lost my touch. Don't get me wrong, I have a door frame, but it looks like

I have started cleaning up all the moulds, and will commence the odious task of re-waxing them all ready to make some parts. This whole process consumes a lot more time than I had hoped.

Still working away on rehabilitating and reconditioning my shoulder. Surgeon and physio are happy with my progress. Rehab consultant is more cautious, warning not to over do it. I had been running 50km a week to compensate for not being able to lift or do any upper body exercise. This seems to have messed up my heel, with possible plantar fasciitis...but true to form I have got it on the wrong side of the foot (outside, not inside). Really hoping to catch a break at some stage this year.
Tai Johnsen
Goo Roo
QLD
JZZ30 Pov Manual LSD & black!

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Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 08:57 am, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's the problem with composites, when it doesn't work out its still messy and expensive.. I like pre-preg :-)

Pics?
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Friday, March 06, 2015 - 05:10 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pics show a door frame. What they don't really show is the weave going all over the place, and the rough surface from voids etc. I will trim it and get it to fit the door skin. It will be my test door for the bonding and I'll also use it to test the fit on the car. With a bit of effort it can probably me made to look allright, but it would be a paint only door inner, not one you would leave raw.

I would use pre-preg, but I don't own an autoclave, industrial fridge/freezer or climate controlled workspace so it would not be economical for me. (making large panels etc)

I have cleaned up the two outer skin moulds and waxed them. One is laid up with a carbon, soric, Kevlar schedule and bagged ready to infuse. I might do it tonight over a few bourbons. I am trying a different resin feed/vac line setup this time. Whilst it is poor counsel to make wild changes after one issue, a famous man once said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results."

Andrew better cross his fingers, because these next doors are his.

I lied, there are some pics...

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The wife is not impressed her lounge room has become my 'clean' cutting room.

PS: Kevlar is a pain in the arse to cut. Had to sharpen my scissors three times this afternoon.
Roland Elliott
Tinkerer
New South Wales
uzz32 1uz-fe

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Friday, March 06, 2015 - 11:01 pm, by:  Roland Elliott (Aussie2013) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Lounge room is a great place to work , large area , clean work space, flat surfaces, etc..
Tai Johnsen
Goo Roo
QLD
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Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 12:12 pm, by:  Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, I am by no means an expert in composites, but a chest freezer would be all you need to store them and you don't need an autoclave or climate controlled room for what you are doing in my opinion.

Just trim to size, layup in your moulds with vac lines like you do now, and get a few halogen lamps to heat it up. Some of the pre-pregs we use will even cure at room temp over a few days.

I admire how much work you are putting into this car and it all looks like quality work.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 08:56 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

G'day Tai. There are a few issues with pre preg for the home user. I figure you know them, but I'll state my argument for those playing at home.

Pre preg is simply carbon cloth that has been impregnated with epoxy resin. From the moment it is mixed the epoxy is going off. The resin used in pre preg has a long 'pot life' at very low temperatures and usually requires elevated temperatures for it to fully cure. It is usually stored below zero to slow the reaction, but the resin is still slowly going off.

You could buy small amounts and store it in the freezer, but it would be a very expensive way of buying carbon. To get the savings of bulk, you need the cold storage obviously and you need to use it in a reasonably quick time to avoid it going off and becoming a very expensive solid carbon roll. In addition, the layers in the finished part will consolidate much better if the temperature is raised significantly so the epoxy liquefies before curing. This means your moulds need to be stable at those raised temperatures as well.

I also don't know of any suppliers selling pre preg to the public. (none in Canberra). I would like to have a go with pre preg one day. I have seen plans to make your own pre preg carbon. The machine is basically a bunch of rollers that feeds the cloth into the resin and then squeezes it to remove the excess.

I am now three from three with the infusions. Two carbon/Kevlar door skins and one carbon door frame are all laid up. The last door frame is prepped and ready to infuse. This is the mould I have had all the problems with. Tomorrow I will find out if the curse is beaten.
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

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Monday, March 09, 2015 - 02:54 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a bad (long) weekends work. One test door bonded and trimmed, one door ready to be bonded, and two more doors in the moulds curing. Surely there are easier ways to spend a couple of grand? The Kevlar/carbon doors are a labour of love and are going onto Andrew's sports sedan. They will sit in the moulds for a week or so to make absolutely sure they are fully cured and are the best I can produce. Hopefully they demould nice and easy.


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Aaron Casey
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NSW
'94 2jz JZZ30 gttl, '93 UZZ31 track, VT, 2x Leyland Mini's

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Monday, March 09, 2015 - 05:28 pm, by:  Aaron Casey (Blownminiturbo) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


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