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Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 11
Reg: 07-2009

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 03:53 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right now I've got TEMS with mystery springs on my jzz30. The mystery springs are very low and harsh, however the cornering is like it is on rails.

I'm looking to replace those springs with some that are a bit more comfy and a lot more drag oriented. I was thinking of going back to a set of stock springs - comfy and should give a fair bit of squat when launching.

Can mixing and matching work? A set of harder aftermarket springs at the front with some soft (stock??) springs at the rear?

What are some of the options out there?

Thanks, Steve.
Matt Petersen
DieHard
NA
V8

Posts: 638
Reg: 01-2008

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 04:10 pm, by:  Matt Petersen (Mattmannz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A set of adjustable coilovers should allow you to soften the rear and harden the front.

Matt.
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 762
Reg: 10-2006

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Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 06:24 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, I have been trying to work out what to do with my suspension for the drags as well. From what I have found out you don't want it to squat at the rear, you want weight transfer to the rear pushing the tyres harder onto the track. If the rear squats and then is forced back up by the springs the weight comes off the tyres and loses traction. I had always thought squat at the rear was good, but evidently it's not. Here's a couple of pages that explain it better
h
http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/video-suspension.html
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/Launching_A_Drag_Car.htm
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
V8 Limited

Posts: 1526
Reg: 09-2007

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 12:00 am, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

a car with a stiffer rear suspension than the front tends to cause oversteer, which would lead me to believe you should go for a set up like Matt said. a little bit softer at the rear so you can put the power down and get good traction.
Spencer Cameron
TryHard
NSW
JZZ30 (converted Manual)

Posts: 113
Reg: 04-2008

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 05:28 am, by:  Spencer Cameron (Switchio) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You may as well just get a set of springs and/or shocks from Pedders. They're soft (perfect for drags), cheap and can be bought at whatever height you need them to be. Just remember, the lower you have your car, the harder the springs are going to need to be.

Adjustable coilovers are (not surprisingly) aimed at improving corning ability/stability. For almost every car of the face of the planet that means harder spring rats (from stock), which is counter productive for your drag launches.
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 763
Reg: 10-2006

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 08:47 am, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ali Saeed wrote on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 12:00 am:

a car with a stiffer rear suspension than the front tends to cause oversteer



You don't get oversteer in a straight line at the drags which is what Steve wants to set it up for. Like I said have a read of the info on the links above it explains it better than I can.

Spencer Cameron wrote on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 05:28 am:

They're soft (perfect for drags),


Soft is not good for the drags. Why do I get the feeling that I'm talking to myself.
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
Relaxed, but no provincial.
IS300

Posts: 4759
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 09:04 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I'm listening Jeff, but alas I'm not interested in drag racing.

Perhaps if we pointed out that there were classes of drag car with no rear suspension at all, they might get the picture that soft rear springs are superfluous. Doesn't the Soarer have mechanical anti-squat anyway? I expect that controlled descent after lift in the front is more important.
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 12
Reg: 07-2009

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 09:39 am, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting discussion.

When watching videos of drag launches in street cars, there is a huge variance in the way they launch. Most of the US domestic muscle cars (mustangs, etc) seem to have almost no rear travel. However, most of the US japanese cars (supras) seem to squat a fair bit.

My basic understanding is that squatting generally means more weight transferring to the rear, though it seems I'm at least partially wrong? Perhaps it has to do with our cars generally being IRS, and the US domestic cars not? Meaning we tend to have more trouble with traction right off the line.

Would it be that I am not looking for soft rebound on the rear? That is, the spring compresses (bound and squat) and then decompresses due to a high rebound rate and unloads the rear tyres (and thus, losing all my sweet, sweet traction)?
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
Relaxed, but no provincial.
IS300

Posts: 4760
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 12:01 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I speak only from reading side chapters as it is road car handling that interests me, not drag traction. However, my understanding is that you want no squat at the rear at all provided only that you keep your tyres firmly planted rather than engendering hop. Ideally, you would like maximum weight transfer to the back axle and rise at the front assists this provided you control front fall which will tend to remove weight from the back axle after you are under way.

How different cars best achieve this depends on their initial characteristics, about which Jeff's references give some good information so far as I can see.

I have glanced at the other material on CG, IC and PR and understand it sufficiently to see it makes sense but have not studied it to the extent I would comment on it.

I rather suspect that the biggest single difference you can make for reasonable money, much the same as on road cars, is to buy tyres specialised for the purpose. Drag tyres as I understand them provide compliance not expected in the rear suspension and elasticity to maintain takeoff traction while releasing the energy into more drive as you further accelerate.

I think I will get out of this conversation before my lack of direct experience really hits home but what I have said to date is I believe fully supportable from several valid sources.

Good luck with your adventure. :-)
Spencer Cameron
TryHard
NSW
JZZ30 (converted Manual)

Posts: 114
Reg: 04-2008

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 01:52 pm, by:  Spencer Cameron (Switchio) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've gota say, I'm not into drags at all either.

Thats said, I've seen a car take more than a second off his time by swapping out his coilovers in the rear for a pair of stockies.


First link wrote on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 09:04 am:

Well,The rear of the car with this added weight transferred from the rising front will lift very little but it should not go down (squat). An inch or two is normal and can be best seen by looking at the relationship between the top of the slicks and the rear fender lip.




The cars that this site is referring to get all their weight transfer from the front lifting off the ground..

Pretty sure Steve's car doesn't do that..


David Vaughan wrote on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 09:04 am:

I expect that controlled descent after lift in the front is more important.




...
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 765
Reg: 10-2006

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Monday, December 21, 2009 - 02:15 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not necessarily lifting off the ground, just lifting on the suspension. On a good launch mine gets very light in the frontend.
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 17
Reg: 07-2009

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Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 03:41 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After swapping my wheels over, I had a look at my mystery springs. They look like stock, unmodified springs - except they are low and firm in ride quality.

My conclusion is that they are springs out of the JZA80 Supra. I do get some squat under acceleration.

When I get the 275/40/17 ET street radials I'll head on down to the track and see how the setup performs in the 60ft. The other unknown is what my TEMS system is doing as the car has been fitted with a standalone ECU before I bought it.

Tweaking times ahead. Will keep everyone posted :-)
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 18
Reg: 07-2009

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Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 11:56 am, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, there are really two possibilities for my springs - either jza80 springs or just reset stock soarer springs. Very hard to tell.
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT

Posts: 3082
Reg: 12-2007

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Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 02:32 pm, by:  Rob Rojo (Rob_tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Supra bilsteins are only just lower than the stock soarer springs but do like to squat.



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Bobby Green
TryHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 423
Reg: 09-2005

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Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 04:22 pm, by:  Bobby Green (Nash) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those pics look really good rob.
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 20
Reg: 07-2009

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 07:52 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice pics Rob. What tyres/60ft on that setup?
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT

Posts: 3092
Reg: 12-2007

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 08:01 pm, by:  Rob Rojo (Rob_tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tyres were Mickey Thompson ET Streets 255/55/16
Best 60ft with the Bilsteins was 1.69 best with stock Soarer shocks & harder springs was 1.68.
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 21
Reg: 07-2009

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 08:30 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for that.

I'm going to be putting MT ET Streets 275/40/17 on mine so I hope to cut a 1.7 60ft eventually. Certainly should be better than the 2.2 60ft I managed on rock hard cheapo 225/35/20's anyway :-)
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT

Posts: 3093
Reg: 12-2007

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:08 pm, by:  Rob Rojo (Rob_tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You would probably better going with a smaller wheel with higher profile tyre as used on pretty much all drag cars not only better grip but cheaper too.
Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 22
Reg: 07-2009

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:13 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah I was going to buy a set of 16" supra rims for the 255 MT ET streets but I came across a nice set of 17" Work rims (with bald rear tyres currently) so the 275/40/17 will have to do.

I plan to daily drive the MT ET streets as well, or at least try to. Hopefully their mileage goes into the thousands of km's and not the hundreds of km's. If that doesn't work out I've heard the BFG drag radial is a bit better in the tyre wear area.
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT

Posts: 3094
Reg: 12-2007

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:18 pm, by:  Rob Rojo (Rob_tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The MT's are terrible in the wet especially when they are a bit low on tread so be very careful and I doubt you would get many k's out of them. Its up to you of course but I would just grab a pair of Supra stockies and fit them with the MT's and put some good road tyres on the 17's. That way the MT's will last for ages (MT's are also around $280.00 each or more) and you will still have a good safe set for the road.
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 772
Reg: 10-2006

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:18 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, I wouldn't drive the MT's on the street, they are way to soft and you will kill them quickly. It would just be a waste of $330 tyres. Get a cheap set of rims and put the MT's on at the track.
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT

Posts: 773
Reg: 10-2006

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:21 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great minds think alike, posted at the same time..
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT

Posts: 3095
Reg: 12-2007

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:25 pm, by:  Rob Rojo (Rob_tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve Oleksak
Tinkerer
Qld
Soarer T

Posts: 23
Reg: 07-2009

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Monday, December 28, 2009 - 10:37 pm, by:  Steve Oleksak (Soarin_high) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been reading some US forums in which they use these tyres a lot for daily driving and seem to get ~2000-6000km's out of them. It depends a lot on how much you spin them, apparently. And yes, terrible terrible in the wet.

Time will tell... :-)

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