Soarer Central: Archive through July 17, 2008

Soarer Central Mechanical - V8 - Supercharged Introduction Archive through July 17, 2008

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Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 GTLtd Ed V8

Posts: 11
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, June 20, 2008 - 09:55 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Hi All,

Just letting you know that my '94 UZZ31 is now supercharged.

Its running the following:

* Bullet Cars SC Kit (YT1500)
* Motec MLS ECU
* Vortech rising rate reg
* Standard injectors..cleaned and flowed.
* Bosch Fuel Pump

Its currently running on 6 pounds of boost with 263 rwhp.

We did take it to 10 psi (290 rwhp on base map) but intake temps were running between 90-110 deg C. We had to take that much timing out of it that is seemed a false economy. So...Ive got my hand on a 2 inch air to water sandwich plate which we are going to install along with larger injectors, & mandrel exhaust in a few weeks. Will have to cut the bonnet though...

The drive from the shop had me grinning ear to ear.......I think Ill be needing a torsen diff and a stronger clutch.

Thanks to Dave, forum member Tai, and Springwood Car Care for their quality work.

Matt Petersen
Tinkerer
NA
V8

Posts: 84
Reg: 01-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 04:10 am, by: Matt Petersen (Mattmannz)

Awesome! Any pics of your setup?

Matt.

Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
Soarer Limited UZZ31 & Soarer 3.0GT JZZ31

Posts: 2107
Reg: 11-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 07:28 am, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Very Nice Grant, well done!

Tai Johnsen
DieHard
QLD
UZZ31 - V8

Posts: 626
Reg: 04-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:52 am, by: Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen)

Glad to help Grant

Cool down that charge temp, bump it to 10 PSI and you will be set!!

A supercharged manual V8 with an LSD is something to be very proud of. Congrats mate.

Now show us some pictures so we can all drool!

David Marriott
Tinkerer
NSW
V8

Posts: 26
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 10:07 pm, by: David Marriott (Blo400)

Shot a few pic of this lurking in my driveway today... Good to see the traction control still works with the Motec install!

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 GTLtd Ed V8

Posts: 12
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 09:04 am, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

The mighty MoTeC MLS. Everything appears to be working the way the God of Soarers intended.

Another shot of the install. The vac lines have been cleaned up since this photo was taken.

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1161
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 05:50 pm, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Hmmm kindred spirits?

Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
Soarer Limited UZZ31 & Soarer 3.0GT JZZ31

Posts: 2114
Reg: 11-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 07:28 pm, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 GTLtd Ed V8

Posts: 13
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 07:46 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Ashley Leach wrote on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 05:50 pm:
Hmmm kindred spirits?

Brothers in arms

Ive got some work cleaning up the engine bay to get it as schmick as that...nice.

David Marriott
Tinkerer
NSW
V8

Posts: 32
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 09:15 pm, by: David Marriott (Blo400)

Is this next?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/H2-hydrogen-generator-fuel-cell-browns-gas-HHO-KIT-II_W0QQitemZ200233 546568QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200233546568&

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1162
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 23, 2008 - 08:44 am, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Grant Iskov wrote on Sunday, June 22, 2008 - 07:46 pm:

I love polished alloy. Braided hoses all round next and some more polishing on the intake pipe.

I got a billet rear intake as well. no. 6 of 8 ever made... noice. up the injectors and then raise the boots to 10psi!

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 Manual SC V8

Posts: 14
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Monday, June 23, 2008 - 07:14 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Ashley Leach wrote on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 08:44 am:
I got a billet rear intake as well. no. 6 of 8 ever made... noice

What's this Billet rear intake??? I'm intrigued!

Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 206
Reg: 08-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 07:48 am, by: Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni)

Do those hydrogen systems actually work. wouldnt the power output of the hydrogen system be lower than the amount of electricity you put in. If so it would actually rob power from your car.

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1163
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 08:25 am, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Grant Iskov wrote on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 07:14 pm:
What's this Billet rear intake??? I'm intrigued!

Follow your air intake to the back of the supercharger, that's your rear intake. Yours is cast and mine is billet.

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 Manual SC V8

Posts: 15
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 09:21 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Hi All,

Just a quick update. Moving steadily towards stage 2:

10psi boost
440 injectors (rising rate reg gets the flick)
2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust
BFI
60mm water-air intercooler:

I've had a few teething issues along the way.

1) The Yella Terra YT1500 SC sprung a leak on the snout seal and was flicking oil throughout the engine bay. Yella Terra were kind enough to send up a replacement snout, so the car did not have to come off the road.

2) Prior to the SC install, the soarer would momentarily lose power while driving. This might happen 1-2 times per month. But since the install it has become a more common occurrence. I've tried a few things including:
a) Cleaning up the major earth points in engine bay
b) Replacing the IACV
Because the motor is now run by the MoTec I can only think that I am either having a electrical 'brown out' to the two ecus (which share the same power), or I am up for new leads/coils. Any thoughts would be appreciated. It only appears to happen when the engine is warm.

My final issue is what to do with the bonnet once the intercooler in installed. The tightest clearance is at the snout where there is 30mm to the sheet metal(I need 60mm). I have three options:

1) Best case scenario is I get a panel beater to hammer-form a nice hump into the existing bonnet to clear the snout. Not sure if I actually have the space to make this viable.

2) Lower the engine and gearbox to get the the extra 30mm.

3) Bonnet cut for a power bulge(xr8?). Id appreciate opinions on the best looking power bulges they have seen on soarers.

Any input on the above would be appreciated!

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1180
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 10:32 pm, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Do you really need to be intercooling? Because as it looks to me you'll really be needing some kind of scoop on the bonnet to accommodate the extra lift. Which even I've thought about but I really like the "sleeper" look and feel to the car as it is. I also think that if you wanted to go that way the Monaro scoop looks nice.

Explain "loosing power" a little more for me. I'm not sure. Does it stall or something? Maybe in the tune?

Mick Mielczarek
TryHard
qld
v8

Posts: 147
Reg: 07-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 01:59 pm, by: Mick Mielczarek (Eta04)

Intercooling is the way to go, put it in perspective this way i run a vortec setup and at running 7 psi i pulled 350rwhp, for example if you ever have had a turbocharged car and taking it out on a really cold night where the air is very dence.... it makes a huge difference basically what a intercooler does in such

Christian Molenda
DieHard
QLD
T

Posts: 761
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 02:36 pm, by: Christian Molenda (Christof)

"the soarer would momentarily lose power while driving. This might happen 1-2 times per month"

i would try bypassing the Fuel Pump ECU.. this is a common thing and mine did exactly what you described. Became more frequent too.

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1181
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 02:52 pm, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Mick Mielczarek wrote on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 01:59 pm:
Intercooling is the way to go, put it in perspective this way i run a vortec setup and at running 7 psi i pulled 350rwhp, for example if you ever have had a turbocharged car and taking it out on a really cold night where the air is very dence.... it makes a huge difference basically what a intercooler does in such

Expense > Gain in a positive displacement setup? If your going to the trouble to fit a scoop may as well just do away with the M90 and go twin screw intercooled. That's my way of thinking. Still have to do the scoop and intercool and the gains are much better.

I'm pulling 300rwhp non intercooled...

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 Manual SC V8

Posts: 16
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:59 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Hi All,

Its not the fuel pump, as I have got a bosch 600 hp fuel pump installed. The glitch happens when cruising at a constant speed (so minimal throttle) and feels like a big miss...a shudder goes through the drive train but it only happens for a fraction of a second. It will also happen on idle, the revs dip low and then it comes back up to about 900 rpm (a couple times the car has stalled and I get a temporary error message and "bings").

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1182
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 04:12 pm, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Sounds like it's in the tune to me... that error message on the stall is probably a charge error. As the belt is not moving the car thinks the alternator isn't working so it will hit you with a charge error (mine did that with the fuel pump ecu)

Cihan Aday
Moderator
Good ol' Victoria
JZZ30

Posts: 2616
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:07 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Great project, i watch in anticipation.

One question though, who recommended the intercooler setup?

In my experience the M90 is nearly out of puff, in terms of outright numbers you're better off going for a twinscrew intercooled or not

We'll see what transpires, realistic figures are 210-220rwkw with the M90 and a '10psi' pulley running good fuel. Integrated intercoolers are more for longevity than improved peak power at these boost levels as they're typically pretty restrictive.

Ashley Leach
Goo Roo
South Australia
Supercharged GT Limited UZZ31 V8

Posts: 1183
Reg: 02-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:12 pm, by: Ashley Leach (Ashlar)

Exactly.
I'm getting 220rwkw @ 10psi. No gain's intercooling as that's about the best boost an M90 can produce.

Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 715
Reg: 10-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:22 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

What about a cooler intake charge resulting in a less of need to retard timing.

As to the engine cutting out problem that could still be the fuel pump ECU and not the fuel pump.

Depending on how your aftermarket ECU is configuration and what remains of the input signals to the original ECU, the warning message is mostly likely the ECU reporting no crank angle sensor. This happens at approximately 400rpm as the signal is too weak for the ECU to pick it up. The engine can sometimes keep going under these conditions and other times it stalls.

Cihan Aday
Moderator
Good ol' Victoria
JZZ30

Posts: 2618
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 08:54 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:22 pm:
What about a cooler intake charge resulting in a less of need to retard timing.

Take this into consideration;

Cihan Aday wrote on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 05:07 pm:
Integrated intercoolers are more for longevity than improved peak power at these boost levels as they're typically pretty restrictive.

Adding an intercooler may make 'safer' power, but not necessarily 'more' power when you're compressor limited - unless it imposes no additional resistance to flow in the path between compressor discharge and intake port. As mentioned, most top mounted heat exchangers pose as a notable flow restriction. (although the surface area in the one pictured on this thread is quite large = good)

Its correct to say cooler intake charge means more advance/leaner mixtures and subsequently more power in the low/midrange but not necessarily in the topend when the cooler causes a pressure drop due to flow restriction.

In cases where the superchager is not compressor limited at a given pulley ratio - you can compensate for the drop in boost after the intercooler install (due to charge density and flow restriction) by bumping up the pulley ratio / dropping S/C pulley size. In this instance we don't have that luxury, hence my original post.

Grant Iskov
Tinkerer
NSW
Black on Black UZZ31 Manual SC V8

Posts: 17
Reg: 04-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 11:11 pm, by: Grant Iskov (Granti)

Hi All,

Well Christian got me thinking today...and a call on the way home from work confirmed that the factory fuel pump ecu is still controlling the new Bosch!!!%#@!&#*!!! This was the whole reason I got the new pump in the first place...anyhooo...bridged the ecu and it seems to be much better for a 10 min drive. I will give it an hour drive tomorrow morning to confirm. I think the Motec will control the pump from here on in. Thank you.

With regards to the inter cooler discussion...I agree! You will get a pressure drop across the inter cooler due to a condensed charge and frictional losses and a m90 is at its practical limit at 10 psi.

That being said, we had the car running at 10psi with 215 kW at the rear wheels. But intake temps were wild. Inter cooling will bring the car safer power and marginal gains with the right core. (5-10 kW??). The car is certainly more sprightly in the morning before the heat sinks in.

Why not got straight to twin screw? Well I've just purchased a brand spanking new m90 and I would like to get laid occasionally. Everything from here on in has been feature creep and will be a surprise to the wife..heh heh

The great advantage with the sandwich inter cooler is its not a huge leap to install a twin screw down the track. Fabricate adaptor plates, drive and by-pass valve solution and your home (I know Its never that easy)! The inter cooler comes at the right price as well.

The last thing I want to do is cut the bonnet. A few tears would be shed as the angle grinder takes its first bite.

Gianni Matrogiannis
TryHard
nsw
SC400 V8

Posts: 209
Reg: 08-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 07:29 am, by: Gianni Matrogiannis (Gianni)

Just do it. If it works then your laughing, if it doesnt well bad luck hehe. (easy for me to say if its not my car lol). But its something that has never been tried, im interested in the results

Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 716
Reg: 10-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 08:31 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

I think you will find a good cooler will not have a very high restriction.

I have seen set ups with LS1's using the M112 where the intercooler located inside the manifold were they were able to reduce the intake temps by approximately 100 deg C (from 150 plus to 50 deg C) which provided more power and a much greater safety margin.

I say go for it you never know how well it will work until you try.

David Marriott
Tinkerer
NSW
V8

Posts: 33
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 08:43 am, by: David Marriott (Blo400)

Grant...

The fuel pump ECU's output is wired to control a relay that supplies full voltage to the fuel pump, so unless its causing the relay to turn on and off it wont be a problem. Lets just rewire that circuit with its own fused power supply to the pump and have the Motec turn the fuel pump relay on and off.

The bigger fuel pump was fitted as the std pump was a little tired and and didnt have the kung-pow to increase the fuel pressure with the 2.5:1 reg.

As for the intercooler... yeah everyones right intercooling doesnt work, just name one factory turbo car built in the last 10 years that's not intercooled! ohh... all of them are? or what about most trucks? ohh they are too? Surely Mercedes, Jag, Ford, Harrop, Bullet(when they can fit them under the bonnet) don't intercool their supercharger set ups either... but again they do, so maybe its only the Commodore supercharged taxi that got it right to use no cooler?

We will be using a second MAP sensor to log the pressure drop across the core and can step up the drive ratio a little higher than normal by using a ROSS oversize crank pulley to compensate for the losses if they are acceptable. If they are too high, nothing lost, we unbolt the whole thing and go back to where we started, but if it works, well maybe you will make some solid reliable HP numbers that wont fall off after two runs on an hot day. Worth the effort I think?

Cihan Aday
Moderator
Good ol' Victoria
JZZ30

Posts: 2619
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 11:18 am, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

David Marriott wrote on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 08:43 am:
As for the intercooler... yeah everyones right intercooling doesnt work, just name one factory turbo car built in the last 10 years that's not intercooled! ohh... all of them are? or what about most trucks? ohh they are too? Surely Mercedes, Jag, Ford, Harrop, Bullet(when they can fit them under the bonnet) don't intercool their supercharger set ups either... but again they do, so maybe its only the Commodore supercharged taxi that got it right to use no cooler?

Right.. before you get too carried away, no body is saying intercooling doesn't work. You're selectively reading things.

The fact is the M90 is small for the 1UZ and so a typical sandwich arrangement can cause peak power to go backwards OR not so forwards regardless of tuning.

Light throttle, midrange and longevity wise its well worth the effort.

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