Soarer Central: Archive through December 15, 2008

Soarer Central Mechanical - V8 - Supercharged My Vortech supercharged SC400. Pics, dyno numbers, vids, and more! Archive through December 15, 2008

Previous Next

Author

Message

Andrew Ferres
DieHard
WA
'90 C-F Celsior V8, '84 Soarer V8, '91 Supra V8

Posts: 977
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 06:47 pm, by: Andrew Ferres (Peewee)

ECU uses speed, rpm and throttle to change gears.
Throttle will just be anything above 70% or so and she'll assume full throttle.
RPM plays a little part, but speed plays the most.

Just dyno in 2nd gear, you'll get a more accurate reading (assuming dyno dynamics), and you won't hit the speed limiter.

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 56
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:54 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Matt Petersen wrote on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:22 pm:
Khris, are you running the stock diff ratio? The ECU uses the speed signal to work out shift points I believe so changing the diff ratio could cause problems.

I'm about 99% sure my diff ratio is stock. I bought it from the same guy I just got the trans from, both the diff and the trans are from a 96 SC400. I swaped the center with the Torsen unit and did not change the gears. BTW, I trust this guy as much as I possibly can for him being a forum buddy.

Matt Petersen wrote on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:22 pm:
I recently did a dyno run and had the same problem. I only did the runs from 3300rpm upwards to stop it from shifting down to second. I hit the speed limiter at about 5500rpm in third so couldn't do a full power run

I will let you know if my switch idea works, I don't see why it wouldn't.

When I was on the dyno before, had the same problem, had to start the pull at 3500 to 4000 rpm to keep it from downshifting to 2nd. Ok for hp numbers but doesn't give the best tq numbers IMO. The operator had no problems getting to redline with my car.

Andrew Ferres wrote on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 06:47 pm:
ECU uses speed, rpm and throttle to change gears.
Throttle will just be anything above 70% or so and she'll assume full throttle.
RPM plays a little part, but speed plays the most.

I don't know if TPS adjustment affects shift points but I figured out this morning that it does affect convertor lockup. Mine won't lock up, or stay locked-up, unless the TPS voltage is AT LEAST .6 volts. I need to turn it back a little because that is about cruising throttle position and it was locking and un-locking quite a bit.

Andrew Ferres wrote on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 06:47 pm:
Just dyno in 2nd gear, you'll get a more accurate reading (assuming dyno dynamics), and you won't hit the speed limiter.

I thought it was pretty well accepted that 3rd was the most accurate regardless of the dyno model, since it's 1 : 1.

KC

Matt Petersen
TryHard
NA
V8

Posts: 316
Reg: 01-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:21 am, by: Matt Petersen (Mattmannz)

Will the ECU pack a sad if it can't see the solenoid? Definitely worth a shot. As you say 3rd is the best gear as it's 1:1 and doesn't require any calculations to correct the figures.

I think the US ECU's don't have the 180k speed limiter that the JDM units have.

Matt.

Andrew Ferres
DieHard
WA
'90 C-F Celsior V8, '84 Soarer V8, '91 Supra V8

Posts: 978
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 09:13 am, by: Andrew Ferres (Peewee)

A dyno dynamics dyno is most accurate when the 'road speed' is between 100 and 140 kph. This generally occurs in 2nd for auto's and 3rd for manuals. The gear ratio is negligible for hp/tq calculations because the diff ratio throws your perfect 1:1 ratio out the window.

The TPS is used in shift points. Those who have installed a speed cut defender will tell you that you need to slightly back off the throttle in the top of 3rd gear in order to allow the ecu to change into top gear.
I'm actually very surprised that its not more based on RPM than speed. But if you are constantly hitting the rev limit at the top of each gear then it obviously doesn't give a rats about rpm.

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 57
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 01:12 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

According to the RM, the ECM won't even blink the overdrive light unless it detects a solenoid problem 8 times or more. Regardless, I wouldn't think it would affect the engines performance.

I am only hitting the rev limiter on the 1-2 shift, all other gears are fine.

Now again, the problem is MUCH better with the trans I just put in. This could indicate a problem with the transmission I removed. I think at this point the problem has to be that the factory shift points are set too high to allow the transmission enough time to complete the shift, even with the raised line pressure and shimmed accumulators. To fix I would either need to be able to control the shift points or I would need to speed up the shift more than I already have. Basically...shift kit or trans controller.

I'm considering a Suprastick.........

KC

Andrew Ferres
DieHard
WA
'90 C-F Celsior V8, '84 Soarer V8, '91 Supra V8

Posts: 979
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 01:17 pm, by: Andrew Ferres (Peewee)

Is a manual trans out of the question ? Building for drags?

Perhaps try that electronic manual shifter that is for sale ?

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4078
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 03:17 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Suprastick would solve the issues no problems!

Also, 1 thing to consider. Running a Centrifigal blower which allows boost to rise as does the rpm, Means the RPM will increase at a more rapid rate higher up when the gearshift is coming !

Once your car gets to the " said Speed " for the gearchange, the engine is revving alot faster and by the time the ecu shifts, youve already hit the limiter a couple of times ! ( quite common on supercharged Mustangs that i read about when running a stock ecu .)

Have you thought about raising the rev limiter?

Otherwise, Grab one of the manual shift boxes from Christian( i think ) and install that ! Its supposed to shift when you shift it

AND he also has a new module which can be shifted between Manual shift and Ecu auto shifting too

With your US dollar, it would be a STEAL for you

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 58
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 01:08 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Hey guys, finally did it.

Not bad for the crap 60 ft time. I was at the track for 5 hours and only made three runs. Got a vid of a flat 12.90 run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8YFwC94O5U

Sorry, can't hear my exhaust over the Honda.

The new trans made a huge difference in time between the 60 and 330. It's still bouncing some but it's much better and it happens much quicker.

Finally.

KC

Tai Johnsen
DieHard
QLD
UZZ31 - Supercharged & Intercooled V8

Posts: 753
Reg: 04-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 05:08 pm, by: Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen)

Awesome work man!

Gotta be happy with that

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4107
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 07:47 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Congrats champ

12 seconds is pretty good for a daily driver

Gareth Richards
TryHard
Bristol UK
GTT-L twin turbo auto / Aristo Mk1 TT / Lexus GS300 SE Mk2

Posts: 285
Reg: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 08:21 pm, by: Gareth Richards (Garethr)

Khris Cox wrote on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:14 pm:
I'm hoping to get back on the dyno sometime soon and had an idea on how to keep the trans in third. I plan to simply put an on/off switch on the no 1 shift solenoid. Have the operator get the trans into third and then cut power to the solenoid. Since the no 1 solenoid is on for 1st and 2nd and off for 3rd and 4th, this would prevent the trans from downshifting during a pull.

This is on a TT, but may help: http://www.soarerworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19623

Doesn't Cihan do something similar for dyno runs? Disconnect the electrical connection to the autobox to put it into diagnostic mode (manual shifting only) and manually control the torque converter lockup clutch.

.

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 60
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 07, 2008 - 12:42 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Hey guys, thanks for all the compliments.

It's amazing how much of a difference the trans made. If you don't mind, take a look.

60 330 660 1000 1320

Before trans 1.894 5.539 8.428 10.921 13.006

After new trans 1.936 5.417 8.319 10.789 12.853

Difference +.042 -.112 -.109 -.132 -.153

Most of the difference is clearly seen before / at the 330. I really think that if I could have had more than three runs I could have gotten around to a 1.85 60 and run a 12.6 - 12.7. Needless to say, I'm very happy to have finally broke into the 12's!

-----------------------------

I've been trying to get to the dyno since Tuesday without any luck so far. Hopefully tomorrow. I will either wire up the switch as planned or try disconnecting the main connector, seems like either method should work in theory. I think just putting a switch on the no 1 solenoid would work and may keep the converter operating as it should without any additional wiring. Suppose there's only one way to find out!

-----------------------

Question for you guys. Sorry, I probably should have started a separate trans thread awhile ago....

Would I be safe running dex3 or it's synthetic equivalent? I have searched but I am left wondering if my modified trans falls into the "ok to use dex with a shift kit" category.

Thanks.

KC

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4117
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 07, 2008 - 04:31 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Mate, im only using Dex 3 with a shift kit in my auto box, but its the TT box. Not sure on the V8.

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 61
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 02:52 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Daniel Clarke wrote on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 03:17 pm:
Have you thought about raising the rev limiter?

Is this possible without an EMS? Or..without spending a stupid amount of money to modify the stock ECU?

Daniel Clarke wrote on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 04:31 pm:
Mate, im only using Dex 3 with a shift kit in my auto box, but its the TT box. Not sure on the V8

I don't know much (or anything really) about the Soarer TT's since we don't have them here in the US but doesn't the box specify dex? Mine specifies T-II.

---------------------------

Haven't gotten back on the dyno yet, hoping to next week. Will update.

Khris

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4132
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 03:25 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Khris Cox wrote on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 02:52 pm:
Is this possible without an EMS? Or..without spending a stupid amount of money to modify the stock ECU?

Yeah Get yourself a Mines ECU or something. Plugs in, removes speed limiter and usually raises the rev limiter by 500rpm

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 63
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:30 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Sorry it has taken me so long to post this. Long story short, I will likely chose a different shop next time I need a dyno.

Anyway, all pulls are from the same dyno.

This is a before and after corrected graph (for comparison). Changes are headers, exhaust and smaller pulley.

Uncorrected graph from the last session.

The switch on the number 1 solenoid worked well but for some reason the dyno program was losing the RPM signal at lower rpm's. At least this is what I was told by the operator.

Should also be noted that I'm pretty sure these runs were without TCC lockup. It will only lockup in 3rd with overdrive off and I'm pretty sure the operator did not turn it off.

--------------------------------------------

On another note, I'm thinking about going back to non intercooled and here's why.

The better pull on the graph is without the intercooler, no other changes between the two pulls. Any theories? I know for a fact that the intake temps on the pulls without the intercooler were MUCH higher, yet it made more power and more tq.

The only problem I had non intercooled was a bit of pinging at the top of second gear on a couple of 1/8 mile runs. This is very likely due to the fact that I have a 2.2kohm resistor installed in place of the IAT sensor. Should read about 68 degrees or so.

I'm thinking about re-removing the cooler and wiring the GM IAT sensor to my ECU. The temp / resistance co-efficeint is pretty close between the GM and the Lexus sensors so in theory it should work.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Khris

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4216
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:24 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Khris Cox wrote on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:30 pm:
The only problem I had non intercooled was a bit of pinging at the top of second gear on a couple of 1/8 mile runs.

Mate i would stick with being intercooled... I guarantee once you shift into 3rd gear, the load on the engine is so much greater than 2nd, it will detonate its arse off and probably destroy something like pistons or a headgasket...

Gianni has run flat 12's @ 117mph with 10psi intercooled on full street tyres before... And thats intercooled.

My opinion, Stay intercooled, it will be much mroe beneficial in the long term... Especially on warmer weather days/nights !

Sure non intercooled Turbos benefit from less pipework as far as response and such goes... but how much boost can be run safely and for how long a period? Not much and Not at all is the answer

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 65
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:17 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Well, I agree somewhat. I've been back and forth on intercooling many times. I had even tried a straightish shot to the throttle body from the supercharger within the engine bay. With all of the non intercooled setups I tried, I had absolutely no problems with daily driving. And I'm talking 100 degrees F ambient temps. Even on the dyno, no problems. The track is the only place I had an issue.

And, I think that if the ECU was getting a true IAT signal, it would retard timing a few degrees to compensate for the extra heat.

Anyway, its cold now, the high yesterday was 40 degrees F. I think I'm going to try it once more, just put a pipe in place of the cooler. This would at least be ran out of the engine bay. I am also going to try and wire up the GM sensor to the ECU, should work. I will also tune it a little richer of course. I very well might put it right back in, I've been through this way too many times already.

Khris

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 66
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:01 am, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

By the way, forgot to mention, 8.5 psi on that pull.

Khris

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 67
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:02 am, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

So, I have already changed my mind. I took the IC out and went for a drive. It's about 55 f ambient, hit 136 f with a good boost run. I was quickly reminded how nervous the temp rise makes me.

Khris

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4218
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:54 am, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Khris Cox wrote on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:02 am:
So, I have already changed my mind. I took the IC out and went for a drive. It's about 55 f ambient, hit 136 f with a good boost run. I was quickly reminded how nervous the temp rise makes me.

Khris

Its amazing the difference.. And you said its freezing cold at the moment? Would definately do an engine with warmer weather...

Still, trial and error, has always been what i've done

You cant argue with facts

Khris Cox
Tinkerer
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 69
Reg: 03-2008

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:14 pm, by: Khris Cox (Kc95sc400)

Daniel Clarke wrote on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:54 am:
Its amazing the difference.. And you said its freezing cold at the moment? Would definately do an engine with warmer weather...

Still, trial and error, has always been what i've done You cant argue with facts

Not quite freezing....55 F degrees.

The two times I went down the 1/8 mile without the intercooler, it was about 85-90 F degrees ambient. Started pinging at about 195 F degrees intake temps.

I still think if the ECU had a temp signal it would compensate with timing retard, but, it's just not worth it I guess.

If I ever have the money to spend, I might decide to go water / meth injection, routing the piping as short as possible to the throttle body. For now though, I'll keep the intercooler.

Khris

Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 769
Reg: 10-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:30 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Non intercooled doesn't appear to be reliable option.

What about a different intercooler. Better flowing perhaps smaller but still very effective compared with straight pipe?

Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

Posts: 4222
Reg: 03-2006

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:19 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Khris Cox wrote on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:14 pm:
I still think if the ECU had a temp signal it would compensate with timing retard, but, it's just not worth it I guess.

As soon as you start pulling timing out, you start losing power. So it would actually make less power if tuned for the higher intake temps.

Have you got a stall convertor Khris? That will definately wake it up down low. 2800rpm seems very nice for street strip in the v8's.