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Khris Cox
TryHard
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 121
Reg: 03-2008

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 02:47 pm, by:  Khris Cox (Kc95sc400) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know I'm not likely to get anywhere with my comments but.....

I think centrifugal superchargers are awesome! I've been running my Vortech for over two years now. Daily driven, I have put about 50,000 miles on it with the supercharger. Current mileage is about 158,000 miles. Making about 12psi with the little v-9.

Closing in on 11's at the track. Have ran a 7.703 1/8 which should get me there. Pulled a 1.68 60 ft time launching at about 2200rpm so I don't want to hear that they don't make power down low. I have made well over 200 passes since supercharged. Estimate 0-60mph in about 3.6 seconds.

On the street, 1st gear is just about un-usable. Even with a pair of 315's in the back, stomping on the gas from a stop results in lots of smoke and no movement. Again, power down low.

Guessing around 380-400rwHP (300rwkw?) based on previous dynos, trap speeds and weight. I do have LOTS of supporting mods as well though. Should also mention that I am using the STOCK ECU and a Maftpro. Stock engine, haven't even had the valve covers off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM2qX_nLHzw

Sorry to rant I just hate when people say that centrifugal blowers are useless on the street. My car is a monster on the street.

KC
Raj Somarouthu
TryHard
Scotland
Soarer V8

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 06:11 am, by:  Raj Somarouthu (Edinlexusv8) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey guys, I am not very literate when it comes to mechanical stuff but I am interested to do all the required research before doing any SC build.

I would like to know whether it is possible to engage the supercharger with the push of a button similar to an AC compressor pulley? Or am I talking total non sense?
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 11358
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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 08:18 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You would need to have a serious electric clutch and some way for the air intake to bypass the SC when it was off.
Brett Moloney
DieHard
Queensland
Supercharged UZZ31 V8 LTD

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 10:28 am, by:  Brett Moloney (Lxsv8) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Khris well said. I have been reading a lot of crap about how centrifugal chargers are not able to make power down low and most of these comments are from those who do not have them. I was speaking to another forum member the other day about how frustrating it is to read these B.S. comments. My vehicle achieves boost at 2500RPM which is pretty much the instant I put my foot on the loud pedal!
Khris Cox
TryHard
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 122
Reg: 03-2008

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 11:22 am, by:  Khris Cox (Kc95sc400) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks!

I think maybe a roots / twin screw / ect might make more power (debateable) at lower throttle angles but the power is definitely there with a centrifugal.

When I first got my Vortech, I turned it by hand and was amazed at the amount of air being moved. I bet that at 800rpm it is pushing more air than the engine needs to idle. I'd be willing to bet that with a closed pipe system (no bypass valve) and a closed throttle valve, you could get a pressure reading from the intake pre-throttle body at idle. Then, the moment you push the pedal, without delay, boost!

Not to mention that a simple stall change (which most do anyway) can do wonders.

KC
Brett Moloney
DieHard
Queensland
Supercharged UZZ31 V8 LTD

Posts: 836
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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:13 pm, by:  Brett Moloney (Lxsv8) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly!
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:05 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boost off idle with a centrifugal? Not really, unless you geared the hell out of it but then it would run out of rpm before you got to redline. Or you could run a much bigger compressor than you should, but then you run it out of its peak efficiency zone. I'm not criticizing centrifugals - I like them - but there is no way you are putting out much boost before 2000rpm. That's not really a problem except from a stop, and you can fix that with a higher stall converter.
Brett Moloney
DieHard
Queensland
Supercharged UZZ31 V8 LTD

Posts: 837
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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 06:47 pm, by:  Brett Moloney (Lxsv8) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:05 pm:

Boost off idle with a centrifugal?




Sorry Miles I missed that one. Not sure where you pulled that comment from as I saw no claims that a centrifugal will do that (they don't) For the record I have a 2800RPM Stall Convertor and I would be surprised if Khris wasn't running something similar - so boost is on tap.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 07:13 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brett,

straight from Khris's post, not yours.


I bet that at 800rpm it is pushing more air than the engine needs to idle. I'd be willing to bet that with a closed pipe system (no bypass valve) and a closed throttle valve, you could get a pressure reading from the intake pre-throttle body at idle. Then, the moment you push the pedal, without delay, boost!

Not sure if I read that wrong but it seems to indicate to me there is some thought that a centrifugal could be made to produce boost around 1000rpm or lower?
Steven Anderson
TryHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 08:46 pm, by:  Steven Anderson (Cusscuss) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Brett Moloney wrote on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 10:28 am:

Khris well said. I have been reading a lot of crap about how centrifugal chargers are not able to make power down low and most of these comments are from those who do not have them. I was speaking to another forum member the other day about how frustrating it is to read these B.S. comments. My vehicle achieves boost at 2500RPM which is pretty much the instant I put my foot on the loud pedal!




err, the point is how much boost it makes at 2500rpm. Its not full boost, thats for sure.
Brett Moloney
DieHard
Queensland
Supercharged UZZ31 V8 LTD

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 09:09 pm, by:  Brett Moloney (Lxsv8) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steven I am guessing that you probably know how centrifugal charges work. Of course it's not full boost at 2500RPM - never said it was. The point of this topic was that one of the members asked for some info on superchargers and those of us that ACTUALLY have them and drive them on a daily basis have been giving OUR real life experiences and results.
Khris Cox
TryHard
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 123
Reg: 03-2008

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:36 am, by:  Khris Cox (Kc95sc400) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who cares how much boost is made at 2500rpm? Boost is NOT everything. I bet most turbo systems, which many people swear by and many people would have nothing else on their car, don't make much if any boost at 2500rpm.

Again, pulled a 1.68 60ft launching at around 2200rpm. My stall is about 3000 so I'm sure it flared up to at least that as soon as I left. But, regardless of the boost made between 2200 and 3000rpm, it's quite obvious that power is there "off the line". With that 60ft, I was likely doing near 40mph by the time my car moved 60ft.

I don't think that at idle much pressure is made but I still think its pushing more air than the engine needs. When I had a bypass valve on it, allot of air would move OUT of it at idle. One of the reasons I took it off is because the sound of the air rushing out with normal driving was kind of annoying to me. I also took the valve off of the t-pipe once, basically had a 1 inch hole in my piping and it was very hard to put and keep my hand over the hole. The "pressure" was wanting to push my hand off.

I have a port on the snail and a gauge, I might just check it out later to see, I'm now quite curious myself.

KC
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 01:16 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah but "idle" is a closed throttle. "Off idle" is idle speed with an open throttle. There is no way your centrifugal is going to be producing boost at 800rpm with an open throttle. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just incorrect to say it could. Only a positive displacement supercharger is going to do that.

The bypass valve is there for a reason. You should plumb it back to the blower inlet, otherwise all that air is just pushing its way back through your compressor.
Khris Cox
TryHard
NC
SC400 supercharged

Posts: 124
Reg: 03-2008

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 01:31 am, by:  Khris Cox (Kc95sc400) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see what you are saying. I might just hook the gauge up later to see what happens, I'm just curious at this point. LOL.

Regardless, I do not lack down low power which is the point I've been trying to get across. I think that even without boost, the supercharger is pushing more air at any given RPM than the engine would get in NA form so it does still make power regardless.

I've been running without the bypass for awhile now. Have gone back and forth with it many times. I just prefer not to have it. Haven't had any problems. I have no chatter unless I really try to make it do it. I've always wondered what happens to the pressure in the pipe at higher cruise rpm's. If my car was manual I would keep one in the system cause then it would likely chatter with every gear change with much throttle. I always kept it on when I had an intercooler cause then it would chatter all the time. Now though with the short pipe setup and water meth it's virtually non-exsistent.

KC
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:19 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Khris Cox wrote on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:36 am:

I bet most turbo systems, which many people swear by and many people would have nothing else on their car, don't make much if any boost at 2500rpm.




10 psi at 2500rpm with the 1.06 rear.
20 psi within 700rpm of that.

0.8x turbine housing would improve transient response further and bring those dyno figures in line with on road performance.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

Posts: 1390
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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:37 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Cihan Aday wrote on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:19 pm:

10 psi at 2500rpm with the 1.06 rear.
20 psi within 700rpm of that.




In what gear.
Peter Taplin
TryHard
Vic
UZZ32 V8 Supercharged & UZZ32 V8 NA

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 06:33 pm, by:  Peter Taplin (Mrfourwd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

centrifugal chargers certainly have their place in the HP scene and they are easier to keep the charge cool, but as for making any sizable boost down low they can't.

What is interesting here is that no one is specifying boost levels at a STD stall of 1800rpm and or a graph that shows boost across the rev range from 1800 to rev limit.

Using a high stall to get around the issue of low boost reduces IMO the driveability of the car with increased noise, rpm etc etc. If you can live with this downside then its not a problem, personally I like to keep things quiet and run at low rpm for cruise etc.

I have just changed the lower pulley on the 32 and its now pulling a max of 27psi @3700rpm with 24psi @1800rpm. cant get a power reading as the injectors have now maxed out again so I have to wait for some 1000cc units and a change to full sequential. From the short runs and if the power curve is similar I should see around 600-700rwkw

At these boost levels the issue is not raising the revs but stopping the tyres from frying launch off the line is insane and the next change will be a 3.2 diff to try and slow things down a bit.

so to cap off does anyone have figures for boost/rpm from the centrifugal blower, I for one would be interested to see it for a comparison.

What would also be interesting would be a power/torque graph on a stock engine with a centrifugal fitted again from 1800rpm.

If I was building a drag car I would probably look at a centrifugal with an intercooler but for a road car I am still stuck on a Whipple or variants.
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 09:00 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cihan,

Your quote of me saying 2500rpm is faulty. I never wrote that.
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:35 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sure how that happened Miles. Fixed!
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
V8 Limited

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:57 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Cihan Aday wrote on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:35 pm:

Your quote of me saying 2500rpm is faulty. I never wrote that.




its easy enough :p
Steven Anderson
TryHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 11:19 am, by:  Steven Anderson (Cusscuss) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

boost curves, top to bottom on the letf - eaton, twin screw, turbo, centrifugal



PD vs centri - top to bot on the left, PD torque, centri torq, PD power, centri power

Note: Higher peak power for the centri, but pd has up to 200ftlb more torque over 80% of the rpm range.



And then theres a twin screw, which has the centri covered everywhere (no direct comparison graphs, but can be see compared to the previous)


Same motor, back to back, you wont get a better comparison.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0501_ford_modular_motor_forced_induction/index.html
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 04:37 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Taplin wrote on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 06:33 pm:

If I was building a drag car I would probably look at a centrifugal with an intercooler but for a road car I am still stuck on a Whipple or variants.




Top level motorsport drag cars still use roots blowers as positive displacement supercharges provide more area under the curve.

I believe they use roots over twin screw for the following reasons, for short duration runs heating isn't as much as an issue combined with massive qty of methanol fuel which is very effective for cooling the intake charge and roots blowers require less power to drive the supercharger compared with twin screw when operating within the reasonable efficiency range.

IMO centrifugal blowers are perfect for the track where the engine is run at high and sustained rpm, plenty of air flowing through the cooler and almost always in the peak power band.

They often complement stock cams well, they are cost effective and easy to install.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 04:47 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve we have discussed those curves before.

They has had further follow up which they improved the centi setup and produced more boost down low.

Cant remember exactly what they achieved but it was a noticeable improvement in down low power and torque.

Brett , KC can you guys post up boost vs RPM.

This looks like your setup Brett.

http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=18

Boost looks fairly linear vs speed in the graph.
Steven Anderson
TryHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 07:19 pm, by:  Steven Anderson (Cusscuss) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep you can put a wastegate on it and run it to max rpm, it only works if you are using it below its maximum capabilities. So the benefit is directly proportional to how much you are underutilising it.
e.g. If you are running at half max boost/rpm, you will get half boost at half rpm and full boost at 70% of max rpm.



As for the raptor graph, take a look a bit closer, its right there in the numbers, it looks linear because the scale is so stretched (only covers the top 2200rpm), but it is indeed exponential.

The scale is 2psi per bar, max 8psi@ 5700rpm
4psi is @ ~4200, exactly where it should be on exponential curve, half max rpm is off to the left somewhere @ 2850rpm and its looking spot on for about 2psi.

Im not saying dont get one, but they do work on exponential curves, this is fact. Obviously to get the most benefit a wastegate style setup will give the best results.

Edit: GIMP to the rescue, here is what would be possible if the centri was capable of ~30psi, all parties are represented now :-)
Mario Lentini
Tinkerer
Queensland
UZZ32 V8

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 07:44 pm, by:  Mario Lentini (Lexus94) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as a drag car's go almost every Top Alcohol car and Top Door slammer will be running a PSI or a WHipple , not to many run a roots blower ,You will find the Roots blowers in Super Comp cars and classes like that where the cost comes into it . A Top Fuel car runs a roots blower because of rules and not being able to run anything else . It may have changed in the rules now but when i had my group 2 license years ago thats how it was .
Mario Lentini
Tinkerer
Queensland
UZZ32 V8

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 07:58 pm, by:  Mario Lentini (Lexus94) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't see why a Centrifugal Blower will not work in a drag car . The thing is that they do need to be up on the RPM to start boosting up , The last time i ran my car I would leave at 5500rpm and run to 9300 across the bottom end . Your not going to find to many guys sitting on the start line at an idle , will as long as there rear tyres can take it . Even a stock converter at 1800rpm will flash to 2000rpm or more if you have a good engine .
AT the end of the day it horse for course and it's what you like . I have always run Roots blowers and now with a Whipple , if i had the room I did think of a Centrifugal but no room in the UZZ32's .
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Friday, February 26, 2010 - 08:57 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Mario Lentini wrote on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 07:44 pm:

As far as a drag car's go almost every Top Alcohol car and Top Door slammer will be running a PSI or a WHipple , not to many run a roots blower ,You will find the Roots blowers in Super Comp cars and classes like that where the cost comes into it . A Top Fuel car runs a roots blower because of rules and not being able to run anything else . It may have changed in the rules now but when i had my group 2 license years ago thats how it was .




Fair enough last event I saw on TV they still had roots blowers.
Joshua White
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Qld
Supercharged GT Soarer

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 08:42 am, by:  Joshua White (Joshua_88) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow, big debate.

I have a Positive Displacement and i'm going to a twin screw in the near future but considered a Centrifugal as i've seen one in action and it fully F'd my mates TT soarer up.....on the street.

so i just have to say they both have goods and bads :-) my 5cents lol

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