Soarer Central: Boosting stock 1uz, Max boost and tuning question

Soarer Central Mechanical - V8 - Supercharged Boosting stock 1uz, Max boost and tuning question

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David Barnes
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Qld
Celsior V8

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Monday, August 30, 2010 - 08:37 am, by: David Barnes (Toyota_celsior)

I am in the middle of fabricating a turbo setup for my 1uz.

I wondering what the go is with tuning/fuel control and boost on the stock ecu etc

I know guys out there run m90 superchargers on the stock ecu with no worries. How much boost are these setups running, and do they use some form of raising rate regulator.

I only want around 180-200rwkw.

Basiclly, stock afm, stock ecu, no fuel reg, How much boost can be run?

I was under the impression the stock fuel maps with stock injectors run rich enough to allow for 4-5psi before running lean.

Or with a raising rate regulator, I can run 6-7psi on stock injectors.

My celsior also has a SAFC bluescreen 1st gen, that im not sure if will be helpful or not.

Could also purchase a s-itc to control ingition timing if that is requred.

Please try answer my questions if you can guys, its greatly appreciated.

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Monday, August 30, 2010 - 09:27 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Depends on the 1uz ECU, celsior ECU is different to the soarer ECU, they had different mapping.

Also this is effected on the exhaust system and how good the fuel pump is. From what I have seen soarer ECU up to 7-8psi fueling is ok but timing isn't.

Celsior ECU I'm not sure.

Christian Somerville
DieHard
South Australia
UZZ31 V8 LTD

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Monday, August 30, 2010 - 10:12 am, by: Christian Somerville (Csomers)

I'd get a standalone ecu anyway mate, so you can get the most out of it.

Steven Anderson
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NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 03:23 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Its only about 2k installed, you wont get much better value/$ for the benefit you get out of it.

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 04:16 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Are you kidding, you will gain zero HP from a full aftermarket ECU over the stock ECU (provided your ECU and AFM is working correctly) and a SMT6 (great unit) provided you are within the tunning range which you will be with a turbo setup at 6psi and roughly 180-200rwkw.

Going full aftermarket ECU is a lot more expensive than 2k (with auto control) Not to mention the typical issues of auto control, error codes and wiring issues with the factory ECU and full ECU patched in together.

It is more like a 3k modification plus a bucket load of wiring and headaces over a $600 piggy back and $300 in tunning ie more than 3 times the price.

Whilst the plug in wolf units are great and there is a loom for a soarer I didn't think there was the option for a celsior yet. (I'm certain it can be done) Control of the auto and having everything running as factory is all possible and working with the wolf in soarers for a couple of years now but if you are only planning on 6psi 180-200rwkw IMO stick with the stock ECU and piggy back.

Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 04:32 pm, by: Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack)

Damian Ware wrote on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 04:16 pm:
Are you kidding, you will gain zero HP from a full aftermarket ECU over the stock ECU (provided your ECU and AFM is working correctly) and a SMT6 (great unit) provided you are within the tunning range which you will be with a turbo setup at 6psi and roughly 180-200rwkw.

Going full aftermarket ECU is a lot more expensive than 2k (with auto control) Not to mention the typical issues of auto control, error codes and wiring issues with the factory ECU and full ECU patched in together.

It is more like a 3k modification plus a bucket load of wiring and headaces over a $600 piggy back and $300 in tunning ie more than 3 times the price.

Whilst the plug in wolf units are great and there is a loom for a soarer I didn't think there was the option for a celsior yet. (I'm certain it can be done) Control of the auto and having everything running as factory is all possible and working with the wolf in soarers for a couple of years now but if you are only planning on 6psi 180-200rwkw IMO stick with the stock ECU and piggy back.

Agreed Damian.

Best bang for the buck would be reducing intake and exhaust restriction, particularly BFI and extractors.

Cheers.

Christian Somerville
DieHard
South Australia
UZZ31 V8 LTD

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 04:47 pm, by: Christian Somerville (Csomers)

Adaptronic, speak to Neil

Remove redline, speed cut, more low down torque?

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 07:20 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Christian Somerville wrote on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 04:47 pm:
Adaptronic, speak to Neil

Remove redline, speed cut, more low down torque?

Adaptronic, cannot run the auto isn't plug in requires patching in with the factory ECU along with defeater boxes for sensors to keep the factory ECU happy not great for a street car.

There is no real advantage of going over 6000rpm unless you have bigger cams.

Pretty sure from other posts David is building a street car on a very tight budget so speed cut isn't going to be much use.

As to more low down torque with the celisor factory mapping I doubt you will gain anything other than loosing fuel economy.

Joshua White
TryHard
Qld
Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 10:37 pm, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

I run an adaptronic from Neil which was supplied with the harness to just plug it straight in and it runs great. When you first put it in your trc will flick up on the dash and you'll get a few other fault codes but talk to neil and he'll tell you 2 simple settings to put into the adaptronic which will fix that all up and everything will work fine. The only problem i've had with it is finding someone in my area who can tune the car properly cause i'm out in the middle of no where haha. other then that i'm happy. I'm just about to put in the lc-1 wide band o2 sensor kit from innovate which funny enough will plug straight into the adaptronic.

Really all comes down to what your willing to pay. you can get bang for your buck or you can go with a name that is very well known like motec or someone but you'll see a big jump in price

Christian Somerville
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Monday, September 06, 2010 - 09:46 am, by: Christian Somerville (Csomers)

Josh, your car is wicked!

Cihan Aday
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etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, September 06, 2010 - 04:15 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

David in my experience the standard ECU runs too much ignition advance for a 'simple' turbo setup to maintain longevity in changing conditions. I'd suggest you aim a little higher as there's little chance a cost effective wastegate / internal gate design will flow enough to limit boost to <5psi.

The cheapest thing you can do is leave the stock exhaust manifolds, relocate the battery and run a joiner pipe from each bank into a nicely placed turbine flange.

The standard fuel pump will team well with a fuel pressure increase via 1:1 rising rate regulator to get the most from your OEM injectors. To control things I would suggest you find a used emanage ultimate cheap and have someone that knows how to tune it to delete the AFM so intake piping is simplified. You can pick up a 1J/2J map sensor and wire that in for metering up to 17psi.

I've done this with multiple cars running NA between 160-190rwkw and turbo installations up to 365rwkw.

A cost effective alternative is the haltech sprint 500 which has a builtin 22psi map sensor, and will run with the 1uz cam and crank signals, and the two distributors no problem. Combine with a 'shift box' from Cam or MV auto's and you're set for 220kw with factory injectors or 350rwkw with a pump upgrade and 7MGE 315's. A plugin Adaptronic is even better, either of which will work fine with a cost effective auto controller.

Matt Petersen
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V8

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Monday, September 06, 2010 - 05:00 pm, by: Matt Petersen (Mattmannz)

Cihan, does the adaptronic plugin cause any issues with the dash, climate and other systems?

I am about to convert to an R154 and am wondering how much additional power a stock motor can make by swapping to an aftermarket ecu.

Cheers
Matt

Cihan Aday
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JZZ30

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Monday, September 06, 2010 - 08:09 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Matt there's a good deal of power / performance to be gained from some sort of sophisticated management system (a good piggyback or standalone). From what i've experienced, a definite 3-6rwkw gain comes from freeing the engine from intake restrictions ie. deleting the air flow meter restriction and using a better filter. A further 7-10rwkw can be had cleaning up the air fuel ratios, and a further 3-5rwkw by retuning the timing curve to suit. There are good gains in the low end, i've measured 10-15% more tractive effort by filling the low-end timing hole in the factory map and optimising fuel load for torque rather an economy. You can also gain response by breaking from stoich earlier, and tweaking acceleration enrichment to deliver more fuel with light throttle movements.

If you're running intake and exhaust modifications the gains from tuning will be less simply because there is less margin from factory programming (fuel delivery & difference to ideal ignition) to remove.

From a general perspective, in terms of horsepower per litre, the 1UZ is very sadate. But, the fundamentals - or should i say potential - is there in the form of a 4 valve per cylinder head and decent port design. Toyota has constricted the engine with underwhelming camshafts and exaggerated intake manifold tuning which doesnt play into the engines by-design strengths - relatively low reciprocating mass, and the bore/stroke for revs.

If you're building an NA engine, high ramp 225-230 @ 0.50 duration cams and a new intake manifold / throttle body combination is the next best thing to boost.

Since aftermarket ECU's work independently to the factory dash (toyota uses two speed sensor circuits, one for the dash - one for the ECU, and the dash RPM signal comes from the IGF feedback circuit) - there should be no problem running a piggyback or plugin ECU. It just depends on how its been wired in, and with what options the ECU is running.

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 07:51 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

I wasn't aware that Adaptronic was offering a plug in unit for a V8 soarer. According to there website they are offering a plug in loom for a supra and a few other cars.

In terms of which ECU is better there is to some extent a get what you pay for. Have a lot at Autronic, Motect, Wolf hardware specifications 8 injector drivers multi configurable ISCV control and compared with the budget ECUs with 4 injector drivers limited ISCV optins and people in some cases have to swtich to ISCV from alternative cars; compared software with the level of detail in the maps correctional factors of the premium ECUs and then compare with the Adaptronic and other budget ECUs the difference is very clear.

Whilst the adaptronic is proving itself to be a good ECU orginaly the had failures not completly unexpected but they also had very limited software/mapping for example they didn't have any form of air temp correction which I believe they now do.

If you want a brand name budget ECU the motec MLS is limited in features but will run a 1uz (specifically designed for the twin dizzy setup) and costs about $1400.

PS Adaptronic has a new top of the line ECU which looks to have most if not all of the features of the top of the line Motec's and Wolf's also note the price of the ECU on its own is in the same ball park.

Cihan Aday
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JZZ30

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Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 03:26 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

I mentioned the Haltech Sprint 500 for $1000 because it'll run injection and ignition and idle control, water & air temp correction like factory. It'll also do o2 correction and run the auto lockup if you set it up with a manualised auto controller. The only thing it won't do is telemetry.

Great interface, easy to tune and all the onboard features your tuner will actually have time to use in the limited time he'll be paid for.

Don't need 24 channel feedback with 12hrs of 100hz onboard logging? The sprint is a gem.

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 04:59 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Cihan Aday wrote on Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 03:26 pm:
I mentioned the Haltech Sprint 500 for $1000 because it'll run injection and ignition and idle control, water & air temp correction like factory. It'll also do o2 correction and run the auto lockup if you set it up with a manualised auto controller. The only thing it won't do is telemetry.

Great interface, easy to tune and all the onboard features your tuner will actually have time to use in the limited time he'll be paid for.

Don't need 24 channel feedback with 12hrs of 100hz onboard logging? The sprint is a gem.

What would you do about the PWM controlled line pressure solenoid.

Matt Petersen
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V8

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Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 05:17 pm, by: Matt Petersen (Mattmannz)

Isn't it cable operated on the V8's?

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 09:16 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

V8 uses both cable and solenoid control of line pressure.

Note the No. 3 solenoid from the link below.

http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/1113/932.html?1102577019

Tai Johnsen
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QLD
JZZ30 Pov Manual LSD & black!

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Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 06:59 pm, by: Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen)

I ran the adaptronic and the hardest part I found was startup and idle control over the wide range of temps and loads due to AC and auto box etc..

But trust me, it's worth it.. Being able to use all of the stock sensors and having full control over your engine is amazing. The auto and dash functions were not effected however I think the auto got a bit 'dumber' but i just manually shifted when i wanted to have fun... The 1.5 shift kit was the best money I ever spent on the car.. Totally transformed the car.. Just make sure the tuner knows what they are doing.

My centrifugal inter-cooled setup made 230rwkw on a very basic tune with 10PSI. If i had my time again I would turbo for sure..

Andy's support and knowledge is great too..

Joshua White
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Qld
Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Friday, September 10, 2010 - 07:37 am, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

yeah the shift kit does wonders. I added a 2,800rpm stall to my set up and a torsen type 2 LSD with 265 rubber and still trouble putting the power to the ground. Loves to spin the wheels. Mine is making 307RwHp on a safe tune at the moment at 8PSI but soon it's getting a more performance tune and then as soon as possible i'm jumping to 15PSI with a Twin Screw for some more fun

And as Tai said yes i too would go a nice Single turbo if i went back and did it over. But i'm set up more for the positive displacement so i'm just going bigger!! haha

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Friday, September 10, 2010 - 08:46 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Joshua White wrote on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 07:37 am:
torsen type 2 LSD with 265 rubber and still trouble putting the power to the ground. Loves to spin the wheels. Mine is making 307RwHp

Fit better tyres

Joshua White
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Qld
Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Friday, September 10, 2010 - 10:30 pm, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

lol i'm using khumo ecstas so it isn't like nangkang or something. decent rubber.

Damian Ware
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Friday, September 10, 2010 - 10:57 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Which specific model as there is a range of ecstas but they are not exactly great tyres except for the KU36's.

280rwkw 14psi from a whipple with Pilot sports equals no wheel spin.

Joshua White
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Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 10:57 pm, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

turned traction control off?

haha. what is done to your car exactly? manual or auto? shift kitted or not? do you have any pics at all of your set up? i'm always looking cause some people have some very nice clean set ups that give me ideas to use under my bonnet

Joshua White
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Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 11:02 pm, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

Also david my uncle was running 4psi with just a rising rate fuel reg and had no dramas just use good fuel, I won't go under 98ron and if i don't have a choice octane booster is used and i won't hit boost if i can help it since i know the pain of leaning out and killing a piston. If you can get your hands on an m90 i have a 4psi snout to put on it for you

Damian Ware
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Victoria
UZZ32

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 03:50 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Joshua White wrote on Saturday, September 11, 2010 - 10:57 pm:
turned traction control off? haha. what is done to your car exactly? manual or auto? shift kitted or not?

The car I was refering to was not my own, it had a shift kit.

With TRC left on the TRC light blink on 1st to 2nd shifts as it did off the line and at low speed with uneven road surfaces. With TRC turned off there was no massive amounts of wheel spin but the tyres were certainly close to there limit.

My 32 no issues with traction but it has no where near that sort of HP roughly 190rwkw.

Mike Beck
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New Zealand
E36 Coupe

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 03:32 pm, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Damian Ware wrote on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 03:50 am:
roughly 190rwkw.

What modifications have you done to achieve that figure?

Daniel Clarke
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TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 08:05 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

He just changed the numbers from 125rwkw to 190rwkw using his keyboard

Hahaha

Joshua White
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Supercharged V8 Soarer

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 08:15 pm, by: Joshua White (Joshua_88)

. hey guys sorry to high jack a bit but why don't many supercharged v8 soarers make over 300RwKw? my goal is to be up at like 350RwKw but right now over 300RwKw i'll be happy with but i can't seem to find much info of what needs to be done exactly and whats holding them back...... i know a mad fuel system and a bigger blower and on the cards but what else?!

Nathan Richardson
TryHard
N.T.
UZZ32 #445 (V8 Supercherged 5Speed. 291RWKW)

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 11:05 pm, by: Nathan Richardson (Richtheblack)

Joshua White wrote on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 08:15 pm:
hey guys sorry to high jack a bit but why don't many supercharged v8 soarers make over 300RwKw? my goal is to be up at like 350RwKw but right now over 300RwKw i'll be happy with but i can't seem to find much info of what needs to be done exactly and whats holding them back...... i know a mad fuel system and a bigger blower and on the cards but what else?!

Most supercharged Soarers are using the M90 which are limited in potential.

There are more twin screw and HTV setups appearing in recent times which should see 300+rwkw more common.

Basically if you start with a decent blower (Twin Screw or HTV) and management, should see around 250rwkw on 5-8psi (assuming exhaust and intake have been done).

From there, heads and cams, increase boost looking at 300rwkw (11psi, water/meth more boost (14psi), 350rwkw, forged bottom end, increase boost some more(18psi) and 400+rwkw is on the cards.