Soarer Central: Archive through November 17, 2010

Soarer Central Mechanical - V8 - Supercharged Coyote v8 Archive through November 17, 2010

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Steven Anderson
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 11:30 am, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Kawasaki are getting 150kw/L, Toyota need to life their game!

Chris Smith
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:30 pm, by: Chris Smith (Smithter)

7.0L Sounds waaaay overkill.

Damian Ware
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:31 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Steven Anderson wrote on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 11:30 am:
Kawasaki are getting 150kw/L, Toyota need to life their game!

How long does the motor last?

Aiden Cheese
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:49 pm, by: Aiden Cheese (Chillpen)

probably ages - but i bet it can't pull a trailer

Daniel Blomfield
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 04:30 pm, by: Daniel Blomfield (Soarer_nz)

I bet it cant last 500,000kms plus either

Andrew Duaso
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Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 08:25 pm, by: Andrew Duaso (Andrewd)

lasts long enough, rarely ever heard of a litre bike engine failure..

plenty of turbo busas putting out power figure that shame many cars and hang together quite well..

theres more they could wring out of these things too, but seriously 200+hp on a bike is more than you'll ever need, when you can break every speed limit in almost any country without even redlining first..

kawa are claiming more hp the the beemer and the beemer has pulled mid 9's with a cluey rider

Steven Anderson
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Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 12:04 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

The point, in case some missed it, is that a holden clunker vs toyota high end V8 vs chev v8 commo spec vs chev v8 corvette spec vs $400k lexus supercar engine vs kwaka bike engine etc are all very different in their applications, specifications, requirements, cost etc. So comparing something on kw/l for example is a waste of time.

If you want to play another fun game, try it with kw/ external size/weight, you will find that suddenly the lsx is pretty high up on the list.

Paul Knox
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:15 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Don't think I've ever seen a modern Jap Bike engine with more than 100,000K's.
Most bike engines are probably done by 50,000K's.

I race bikes , and what bike engines have in their favour is the ability to rev. Unlike cars which need torque down low to get them moving, so their upper Rev limit is compromised.

But , i think we were comparing Car Engines, which for all intent and purposes share the same design goals.
My point about Holden's or the Chev engine , is that the W427 is their Top shelf item !!!
Thats why I compared it with Toyota's top shelf that all.
And gave a KW/l Figure to illustrate it.

It's as close to apples to apples as you can get really.

Bike's come under a whole different design approach.
Steve my current Race bike has 120KW's at 11,500rpm, it's 600cc and will not last 10 races or more than 2000km's.
Standard bike has about 95kw's out of the showroom.
Thats 200Kw's per litre.

Andrew Duaso
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 01:03 pm, by: Andrew Duaso (Andrewd)

not quite the same power level here but.... a guy up the road has a zzr1100 will still do a 10 second 1/4 on a good day and it has 132,000km but they are bulletproof, an old donk like that isnt as highly stressed as a new 600cc bike, but that said theres stacks of 250's with 60K on them and they still rev into the high teens and go well

Damian Ware
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 01:20 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

CBR 250cc 21,000rpm rev limit life dependant on how you ride it but I have heard they last roughly 20,000km.

Paul Knox
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 02:02 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Motogp bikes are around 230-250HP , they get 6 engines per season.
Engines are good for around 60hrs.
at an average speed of say 150kph , thats 9,000Km's , not bad for around $600,000 per engine

The teams can only change the oil.

That 132,000Km bike engine, has probably had at least 20 oil changes, and some major work done at some point or been rebuilt. I would probably bet money on that !

ZZR1100 only has 145hp , my little 600cc has 160hp.
Most current 600's have around 130hp.
I doubt it still has 145hp after 132,000K's too.
Unless it's been rebuilt at some point ??

Steven Anderson
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 03:35 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

LS7 is chevys current top shelf N/A engine. Its also mass produced, understressed, undertuned and is in a car that is less than a 1/4 of the price of an LFA.

Apples and oranges

Paul Knox
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 03:54 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Did you even read my previous posts , or just get your nose out of joint Steven because I don't like Ford or holden ?

W427 or LS7 is Holden/chev's top shelf engine, it is about as much as they can get out of the 2 valve per cylinder format, I would also say that it isn't understressed or undertuned , being that it Revs to 7,100rpm.

what I was pointing out was .....that the 1uzfe from 20years ago put out about 5okw per liter, the Ls7 is putting out 54kw per litre.
LS7 is not mass produced. It is a hand built engine !!!

Ok compare it to the IS-f then , which has 62kw/L , that engine is mass produced.!

In real world terms , what else can a N/A engine be judged by ??

The LFA is Toyota's top shelf , price is irelevant to some extent.
Apples to apples was a comment about each others technical prowess, and top shelf offerings.
really.

W427 sold for $160,000 , HRT built a few for racing that were around $500,000 , yes that is correct, the last one sold for $920,000, so just adding some perspective.

Leon Wright
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Friday, November 12, 2010 - 05:22 pm, by: Leon Wright (Techman)

Paul Knox wrote on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 03:54 pm:
W427 sold for $160,000 , HRT built a few for racing that were around $500,000 , yes that is correct, the last one sold for $920,000, so just adding some perspective.

Bloody hell, a $920,000 dunny door!

Steven Anderson
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Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 02:42 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Do you have any idea what the after market is like for LSx engines? They are incredibly easy to get more power out of, this is how I know that they are capable of more and nowhere near the limit.

Judging an engine by kw/l is a pissing contest in the extreme, as said before, if you want to go down that route then everything pales in comparison to bike engines. There's more to it than that. I dont judge engines purely on one factor alone, anyone with half a brain knows that is a moronic thing to do. If you really want to compare an engine to another how about in terms of external dimensions, weight, cost etc. Things that actually make a difference in the real world because it doesnt matter if a 1uz makes 50kw/l if an ls1 can make more power from a smaller package with less weight.

W427 is a failed marketing exercise, there is a world outside australia and theres even the car that the ls7 was designed for in the first place sitting over in the US. It doesnt cost 160,000 either.

You can have your pissing contest, I dont care, Ill take the engine with more power in a good package any day of the week.

Paul Knox
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Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 05:40 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Steven, do you know how incredible one eyed you are sounding.

1.LS7 is under powered for it's displacement.
2.It is handbuilt.
3.aftermarket parts are needed to extract more power with any engine, I don't quite understand you thinking here ??. With a 2 valve per cylinder and pushrod format, it reached it's limit.
Why does displacement keep increasing rather than the technology ?
4.if aftermarket parts were available for the 1uzfe where would the power ceiling be in comparison?
5. only then could you compare the different platforms back by KW'L produced for a road car.
6. smaller package and less weight , could also limit overall power, because the block isn't as strong ?
7. the Corvette also has volume of sales to keep the price down , w427 were limited to 500, and I bet if you tried to import one the cost would be......?

1991 soarer in 1991 would have been $150,000 + if imported at the time by Toyota , think about it !

so many variables , whereas KW per litre is a very usable yard stick for comparison.

A formula 1 engine would be idiotic in a road going car , but I bet 800kw's and 0 torque under 8,000rpm is still something to brag about.

Bike engines have nothing compared to full on race engines steven.

Did you catch Topgear where they drove a V8supercar on the road , yeah that makes alot of sense doesnt?, anything under 60kmh's means overheating !!

I have tried to stay rational and reasonable throughout this discussion Steven ,but your coming off very one eyed ?? , do you own a Holden or something ?

Andrew Ferres
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Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 07:14 pm, by: Andrew Ferres (Peewee)

Paul Knox wrote on Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 05:40 pm:
Why does displacement keep increasing rather than the technology ?

Because its cheaper

Steven Anderson
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Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 10:19 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

"so many variables , whereas KW per litre is a very usable yard stick for comparison. "

No, its not, its useless because its academic, it does not matter in the real world.

If I have the choice between a stock 1uz and a stock LS1, the LS1 has more power, less weight and smaller exterior dimensions but worse kw/l, how exactly is that a good yardstick?

This is my only point.

No holdens here.

Matthew Sharpe
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Monday, November 15, 2010 - 06:11 am, by: Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt)

Heh, good point Andrew - but of course it will use more fuel than the smaller capacity, more efficient engine producing just as much power - so while the manufacturer might be saving money, the owner will end up paying at the pump long term.

Paul Knox
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Monday, November 15, 2010 - 12:51 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

My point is that the primary function of an engine is to produce "power".
1. in the form of rotational force = Torque. in the form of NM or Ft LB's
2. Displayed in a Relative Power output = KW or HP or Ps.

Dimensions of an engine are irrelevant , unless your trying to fit it into a place it was not originally designed for.
Weight of an engine is irrelevant unless your focused on the weight of the overall vehicle or the balancing of the vehicle.

I would agree that power to weight is another yard stick that could be included , but that also has to account for the vehicle itself.
Power output is irrelevant unless it has a direct impact on the proposed project.
For example , formula one , top fuel Drag , Tractor pull etc.

In a road going car engine KW per litre of displacement is a tool to help judge the relative efficiency of the design of the engine, specific to it's intended purpose

other factors are basically superfluous.
for example VVT , turbo , supercharging , twinspark etc.

so for a Naturally aspirated road focused car Kw per litre gives an accurate measure of the efficiency of the design and allows comparison of varying designs without any other factor coming into play.

Thats all.

I could also argue that the 1uzfe was designed for comfort and luxury and reliability without any real focus on Performance.

Whereas the LS1 was primarily designed for performance , which directly related to KW output.

So the fact that the 1uzfe that preceeds the ls1 by some 7 years
LS1 5.7 litres , 260Kw = 45.6 kw/l
1uzfe 4.0 litres , 196kw = 49 kw/l

Ls1 495nw = 86nw per litre
1uzfe 353nm = 88nw per litre

so in all they are very comparable , except the LS1 fails as a performance engine, and the 1uzfe only falters because of the lack of further development & aftermarket support.

Don't forget the 2uz & 3uz though !

Steven Anderson
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 11:17 am, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Uhh, wow.

"Dimensions of an engine are irrelevant , unless your trying to fit it into a place it was not originally designed for. "

And noone has ever done that before. Or if you were trying to get that big lump of metal as close to the CoG as possible and its not like anyone ever does that.

"Weight of an engine is irrelevant unless your focused on the weight of the overall vehicle or the balancing of the vehicle."

Yeah, noone is ever focused on the weight or balance of the vehicle... wtf.

"Power output is irrelevant unless it has a direct impact on the proposed project. "

Lol, wtf, when is power output not relevant on perforumance engines?

"the LS1 fails as a performance engine"

Yeah.. nah, the LS1 is the most popular late model V8 performance engine in the world.

Im not denying that some engines are more efficient than others, you can have your efficient engine looking at one factor. Ill take the better overall package looking at all factors.

Paul Knox
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 03:20 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Ok , Steven you really have missed the whole point haven't you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward%27s_10_Best_Engines

the Ls1 does make a couple of appearances , but I tend to think there's politics involved being it's an American Focused list, written by americans.

Read some of the Wards articles and they rate the UZ better than Euro v8's as well.
The other thing is they seem to use the HP per litre of displacement to help judge an engine. ??
These are proffesionals so if they're using it , I fell justified in using it too.

The UZ series makes the top 10 in the whole of the 2oth century , and the yes the Chev small block makes the list but not the LS or LT series , so afraid the experts don't agree with you mate.

Ohh and from i can gather the 1uzfe is 175kg's , the LS1 is 185kgs , yes the 1uzfe is alittle wider in the V and overall width.

Look after that eye won't you !

Steven Anderson
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 04:29 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

I have no idea what your point is, if it is that 1 engine makes more kw/l than another engine ive never argued it.

All im saying is there is more to an engine than kw/l.

Paul Knox
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 04:59 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

my point was that I was defending my opinion thats all.

You started a debate , which i chose to participate in with verifiable facts, against what seemed on your part a strong bias towards LS series engines.

I don't think they are such a great engine , so i was just offering up an opposing view.
Since this is a Soarer site , I used the 1uzfe as a comparison.

Kw per litre is a very tangible yard stick to compare any engine within a specific design purpose.

for example sports car to sports car, tractor to tractor ,dragster to dragster.

I just think it's efficiency in it's internal combustion and volumetric efficiency is more important that it's external weight , and dimensions.]

it's purpose is to turn Fuel and air into power.
I think it's external physical attributes are secondary to it's efficiency in doing this.

Damian Ware
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 05:05 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

LS series are popular with kit car builders as they are a cheap and smallish.

But the power output per lt is down compared with other alternatives from factory but most of these guys are building light weight cars and don't mind putting in a big cam giving great top end with a drop in low down grunt.

IMO they are good engines but not great, 1uz was great for its day and is still comparable to many new good engines.

Paul Knox
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 05:36 pm, by: Paul Knox (Surreal)

Going back to coyote V8 , most reviewers are not giving it favourable reviews , as outright power is probably it's only attribute.
Often overpowering the chassis and other components.
NVH levels aren't great.

I guess we may be reaching the limit in terms of power for a road going car to still be a viable everyday driver.

Ryan McDonough
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 08:12 pm, by: Ryan McDonough (Ryan)

But what do they expect from a car that performs the way it does for so little money?

Steven Anderson
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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 09:40 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Paul Knox wrote on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 04:59 pm:

Kw per litre is a very tangible yard stick to compare any engine within a specific design purpose.

for example sports car to sports car, tractor to tractor ,dragster to dragster.

You think a good way to compare a tractor is kw/l?

And a dragster? Whats the ultimate purpose? you dont think that the best dragster engine is the one that makes the most power?

Really?

Matthew Sharpe
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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 07:33 am, by: Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt)

They are only popular because they are sold into the largest performance market in the world, they are cheap to produce due to their primitive design, have loads of 3rd party support, easy to work on, and easy to engineer around. None of these makes them a particularly good engine, just a convenient engine. They do have a lot of fans - mostly because many Americans are jingoistic about pretty much everything, and redneck culture extends around the world these days.

Damian Ware
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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 08:59 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Paul Knox wrote on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 05:36 pm:
Going back to coyote V8 , most reviewers are not giving it favourable reviews , as outright power is probably it's only attribute.
Often overpowering the chassis and other components.
NVH levels aren't great.

NVH was the biggest issue from what I have seen with the previous engine.

The 5.4lt supercharged ford V8 in the mustangs were good reliable engines put down plenty of power but they are a bit rough around the edges and dam it is noisy.

I would have thought this would be the first area to resolve when developing a new engine given the last generation was seriously lacking in this area, but it looks like this isn't the case.

Reading a toyota white paper on one of the latest Corolla engines the engine has the same power output as the previous motors but slightly more torque. The main aim of the design team was to reduce engine noise and vibration and meet new emissions standards.

3 years of development went into head and block design to reduce NVH on what was already a quite and smooth engine.

Clearly Toyota has very different aims than Ford.

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