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Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

Posts: 533
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:10 am, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We'll see when I get to ACT. I think Mark is correct in at least one aspect: It will be VERY hard to hear the difference.

Said that, I could hear the difference between my current amps and my old Linear Power ones. I just want to make sure that I don't have to pay $2000 per amp to get the same sound in my next car.

On another note: Some amps colour the sound slightly. I have Rotel amps at home for that reason. I just love the sound.
I have heard other amps of the same or better grade but they are not as soft. They may have less distortion but that, for me, is not the point.

In the car I just try to make the best sound possible for the budget I have.
Daniel Habib
TryHard
Shopping for a manual turbo...

Posts: 54
Reg: 08-2005

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:38 am, by:  Daniel Habib (Listen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Benny, absolutely right - it all comes down to the best sound for the budget you've got.. same goes for performance mods etc too - everyone wants the best they can get for what they wanna spend..

talking sub amps, yes it'd be very hard to pick an audible sound quality difference, but with component speakers, there would be a definite sound quality difference...
Troy Tappenden
TryHard
JZZ30 (TT)

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:57 pm, by:  Troy Tappenden (Moredhel) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that there are 2 things here that I would like to comment on.

1: Mark, I think that manufacturers refer to free air subs that way completely due to marketing response. More people know that Free air subs mean that they can be put in to an environment without a complete box, sealed or unsealed, but the air is not allowed to be transferable from the top of the cone to the bottom or vise-versa. Infinite baffle is a little bit more explaining, and I don't think that the average Joe Bloggs cruising down to pick up a fully sik bro system for his Commodore really cares whether it has "Infinite Baffle" or "free Air" subwoofer written on the box of their doof doof makers. It's just easier to pronounce, and easier to understand without having to have it explained. Obviously people like Kicker, MTX and Cerwin Vega know what the difference is, otherwise they wouldn't be some of the leading subwoofer brands in the world.

2: As it has been said in a the last few posts, Jaycar probably could beat most of the big name brands dollar for dollar. Having said that, I have never seen anyone with Jaycar products take out any awards for sound quality or SPL, whereas I have seen Alpine take out numerous Sound Quality awards over the last 10 years, and I have seen MTX and Cerwin Vega take out numerous SPL awards as well.

All of these have been done with Terma-Labs SPL equipment which is the current IASCA sanctioned equipment for SPL. I am unaware of the equipment that is used for sound quality, but one thing I think we all agree on is that if the THD is below 0.01%, the human ear cannot pick up the difference anyway, so who really cares?

I just looked up the Jaycar AA-0424 as you said and compared it to the 2 channel amp from Alpine that was the closest.

THD at 4 ohms was 0.08% on the Alpine, Jaycar didn't have that on their web site info for the AA-0424.
RMS at 4 ohms bridged was 340WRMS, whereas the Jaycar was 500W RMS. Any Alpine V12 customer will tell you that there isn't a snowflakes chance in hell that any of those amps from Alpine will come out with that power though, it would be closer to 450WRMS or even 500WRMS on the card in the box. A friend of mine bought a 50WRMS per channel V12 and it actually had 98WRMS per channel. Almost double the expected output. My 300WRMS amp came out with over 350, my 75WRMS 4 channel came out with over 100WRMS per channel, and my 1505 was rated to 900WRMS bridged, it came out with over 1200WRMS.

The other thing is, I'm sorry Mark, but that Jaycar amp looked boring. If you were going to do a system that looked stock and you were going to hide the amp, then I would opt for the Jaycar one, I have to admit. It was as good or better than the Alpine, and I wager it would have been about half the price. But if you wanted a system like mine, where you like to show it off a bit, you just wouldn't go for the Jaycar amp. You would get something a little easier on the eye...

Hence why no one buys Nakamechi. Besides tha fact that it is one of the only brands in the world that can take on Alpine for sound quality, no one gets it for 2 reasons.
1: It is twice the price of Alpine, and Alpine is twice the price of everything else...
2: It looks like someone designed a flat box with a hole in it for a CD to go in to. Boring, boring, boring... But works bloody well!!
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

Posts: 537
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:21 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Horses for courses Troy. If you want bling, buy bling. If you only want sound, buy sound, and I for one don't care what it looks like in the boot.

I don't know about Alpine. I heard a couple of Alpine amps at the same time as I was buying my AVI's. Sorry, they're just not as precise. Neither was any other brand for that matter.

The above statements are a question of what I heard. I'm not saying they are better, just that they sound better to me.

Again, personal preference.

I don't know if good/better amps always will sound better running the same speakers so I will add that I also run the top-of-the-line AVI speakers. Don't know if that's got anything to do with it.

It would be interesting to make a test of all these amps, wouldn't it?
Ivor Miric
Tinkerer
Camry/Hilux

Posts: 32
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:29 pm, by:  Ivor Miric (Ivor) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

benny if you wont to try a re-sponse amp i can lend you mine, only take me 1 min to take out?
and then we can find out the difference
Daniel Habib
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Shopping for a manual turbo...

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:55 pm, by:  Daniel Habib (Listen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Troy, my two Alpine MRV1005 were rated at 100wrmsx2 or
600x1@4ohm - both put out over 150x2 and well over 850x1 - my two 12" square solobaric's loved them!

ive been present for a direct comparison between a variety of MTX, Kicker, alpine and kenwood amps down at custom car sound in melb.. (the importers of most of the top brand USA car audio in australia). i wish i still had the results of it all, but i left it at my old workplace (wasn't allowed to take it with me)..

i think this is one of those 'agree to disagree' issues. if people are happy using jaycar, good luck to them, its an excellent 'budget' brand thats very competitive.. if others want to spend more money and get a brand that looks better, has a better brand name, has a pretty package, whatever, so be it!! likewise if people want to use the term 'free air' as opposed to 'infinite baffle' its the same , with a slightly different smell as far as 99% of the population are concerned..
Troy Tappenden
TryHard
JZZ30 (TT)

Posts: 101
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:58 pm, by:  Troy Tappenden (Moredhel) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel Habib wrote on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:55 pm:

i think this is one of those 'agree to disagree' issues. if people are happy using jaycar, good luck to them, its an excellent 'budget' brand thats very competitive.. if others want to spend more money and get a brand that looks better, has a better brand name, has a pretty package, whatever, so be it!! likewise if people want to use the term 'free air' as opposed to 'infinite baffle' its the same ••••, with a slightly different smell as far as 99% of the population are concerned..




Daniel, I think you have summed this thread up pretty damn well
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 02:24 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Ivor. I would love to hear it.
We can meet up at WSID on wed. I understand you're coming? I will try to be there as well.
Troy Tappenden
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JZZ30 (TT)

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 02:27 pm, by:  Troy Tappenden (Moredhel) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Benny Gammelmark wrote on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:21 pm:

I don't know about Alpine. I heard a couple of Alpine amps at the same time as I was buying my AVI's. Sorry, they're just not as precise. Neither was any other brand for that matter.




Benny, there are a lot of factors which could draw you to a conclusion like that.

1: Car they were in (Unless it was in a sound board in a shop, where everything sounds pretty crap really). The shape, volume of the cabin and padding in a car will change the sound of music a hell of a lot.

2: Speakers that were run, and head unit it was run off. Crap speakers will give a crap sound, no matter what is powering them. Also, crap head unit's with low pre out voltages will also give bad sound quality, regardless of the amp it is hooked up to. Also, Alpine amps really like 4V pre outs, anything else and they don't perform terribly well. Most Alpine head unit's these days have 4V pre outs.

3: How competant was the guy that set up each of the amps? Did he just turn the gain and crossovers till it stopped distorting? Did he tune it at all? Was one amp set up by a competant installer and the other set up by Back-Yard-Bob?

4: Was it the same song? Or even the same band, CD etc? Dire Straits on a crap system is going to sound a lot better than System of a Down on a good system (Not to be taken TOO literally of course), when looking at it from a sound quality perspective.

5: Not to sound like a prick, and I am sorry if I do, but do you really know music? Do you just like music, or do you love music? Can you tell the difference in a good system and a bad system if you were blindfolded and couldn't see what is playing what? Most people think they can, most can't when you test it. Just like most girls think they like music, but the first thing they do when you leave them alone with your stereo at a party is turn the volume up to flat out with the speakers distoring so hard that you come running in from outside to try to save them! Ha ha ha, had that happen a few times (Note to everyone out there, girls don't know music, don't let them near your $6000 Yamaha home theatre system, they will do their best to kill it! I know I have every female in the soarer community breathing flames at me for stereotypical generalisation like that, but I am sorry,that has been my experience, and I know there will be a lot of girls out there that can tell the difference between music and distortion, it's just that most can't tell the difference when they have had 5 vodka cruisers and they didn't pay for the equipment, hence don't really care).

Like I said, sorry if I sound like a prick, but I am just speaking from previous experiences with car stereo installers, sound equipment, cars etc.
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

Posts: 539
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 02:48 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not at all Troy. Good points.

Yes, they were all tested against the same speakers (same as the ones I have in the car).
Yes, it was the same music.
Yes, it was on a sound board (doesn't sound as good as in my car).

btw: these posts are getting too long. Sorry all (all that's still reading).

As for the music, it wasn't Dire Straits. Although I love their music it's not very good for testing. Too easy to get to sound good. It was a mix of Enigma, Santana, classical and a special audio test-cd.

Same guy set up all the amps. Same as set up the stereo in my car. They do this for a living and a lot of their jobs are correcting faulty installs (mostly from Strathfield).

As for if I like music? Yes, music, not boom box stuff.

As for "can I hear the difference?" - don't know but I can hear the difference between a Linear Power and an AVI and also between MP3's and the real stuff (easier than between the amps).

There's a reason for using $$,$$$ on my car stereo. It's call sound quality. Instrument separation and clarity is the key for me.
If it was for the wank factor I wouldn't have AVI, I wouldn't have the very plain Clarion head unit and I wouldn't have spent the dough.
Ivor Miric
Tinkerer
Camry/Hilux

Posts: 34
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:11 pm, by:  Ivor Miric (Ivor) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes benny i should be there. i hope. what are you currently running because the amp supports;

Power / channel @ 4 Ohm 14.4V 130WRMS x 4
Power / channel @ 2 Ohm 14.4V 190WRMS x 4
Power / channel (bridged) @ 4 Ohm 14.4V 380WRMS x 2
Signal/Noise ratio >90dB
Input sensitivity 200mV - 5V
Low Pass filter 50 - 500Hz @ 18dB/octave
High Pass Filter 50 - 500Hz @ 18dB/octave

i think thats it, and do u have a after market amp, because it might be a ,b1tch to install
Ivor Miric
Tinkerer
Camry/Hilux

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:14 pm, by:  Ivor Miric (Ivor) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

u paid 2000 for a amp jezzes, it will be interesting to hear a 300 v 2000dollars
Daniel Habib
TryHard
Shopping for a manual turbo...

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:16 pm, by:  Daniel Habib (Listen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just remember tho boys, crap speakers will still sound crap, even with a $2k amp pushing them.. likewise if the wiring connecting it all is cheap and poorly insulated, it'll still sound bad.

a system is only as good as its weakest link...
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:21 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ivor, I have 2 AVI amps and a Linear power for the sub.
I haven't got any figures on them. I listen to amps I buy, I don't read the specs first.
I think they're 200W X 2. I know the Linear is 25W which is enough for the sub.

I'm not looking to replace these. I'm looking for cheaper options for my next (second) car a bit down the track.
If you don't have them connected, don't bring them as mine are a bit hard to uninstall/install. I certainly wouldn't like to do it in a parking lot.

EDIT: Sorry Daniel, you got in before I could send. Yes, I know. It would have to be tested on my car or on similar. I don't think my speakers have ever lost a comparative test (at least I know they've won hundreds).

Re-edit: Ivor: the whole system has cost me about $20K including wireing. That's the reason the car is always parked in secure parking and that I've got back-to-base alarm at my house.
Ivor Miric
Tinkerer
Camry/Hilux

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:31 pm, by:  Ivor Miric (Ivor) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that's what i thought, um it takes me 1 minute to disconnect it because its all in the boot, but i think it will be to hard 2 connect everything in the dark, we can always leave it for another time
Daniel Habib
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Shopping for a manual turbo...

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:32 pm, by:  Daniel Habib (Listen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what components are you running Benny?
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:40 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A single CD head unit. That's all.

Oh, and an Ipod with wave files (not MP3).
You can hear a slight difference in sound quality between the Ipod and a CD so I use the CD's when I have a choice. The Ipod will carry about 1500 songs in wave format (it's 60G).
Daniel Habib
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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 03:54 pm, by:  Daniel Habib (Listen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry, i meant which component speakers...
Benny Gammelmark
TryHard
V8 UZZ31

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 04:50 pm, by:  Benny Gammelmark (Oldfield) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah. 2 sets of double-magnet AVI BSM speakers with crossovers for tweeters and a Hart 10" sub in the parcel shelf.

The BSM speakers are only 4" but so deep that they only just fit in the door. They also make the door a bit heavy. They are comparatively basey, as if they were 6", but they have the high end as well. I ran them without a sub for a month while the Linear Power was being fixed and they actually sound quite OK by themselves.
Murray Allen
Tinkerer
JZZ30

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Monday, September 05, 2005 - 05:46 pm, by:  Murray Allen (Rusty) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Troy, MTX and cerwin vega havent taken out any dbDrag events on TermLAB in quite sometime now. Thats dbdrag, im unsure of USACI or IASCA etc etc.

Also think back a couple of years to summernats. A mate of mine took out SPL GOD using jaycar/response subs. That was on the old termPRO meter.

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