Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:22 pm, by: Mike Beck(Gold_40gt)
Well, today I was talking to my brother and he thinks his cheap round around Subaru legacy GT station wagon that’s stock could out handle a UZZ32 active Soarer around a twisty road...
I’ve told him all the details about the active soarers their brakes, suspension system and 4ws ability and the fact it can out handle all other soarers.
But he doesn’t seem convinced, so that got me thinking - how good does an stock active compared to other cars like a legacy or anything else that’s some ones looked into any other cars accept a Soarer?
Personally I think the Active would still have the edge since they have been pretty good on track days compared to cars with alot more power. However the 4wd ability of the Subaru may be an edge not sure though!
So some of you lucky active owner should know something - any ideas in general?
Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:37 pm, by: Luke Nieuwhof(Luke_nieuwhof)
On a Legacy you would think it would be safety, traction type four wheel drive rather than a set up designed for optimum performance. Something like an Evo or a GTR would be a different matter.
Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:09 pm, by: Mike Beck(Gold_40gt)
Yeah that was I was also think how the 4wd systems in the Legacys are more of a safety feature and help in demanding weather.
Its just my brother has this idea since the soarers are heavy particularly the actives he believes the will just not cope well through corners etc... Thats why I though hmm why not ask the soarer guys and see what they had to say particularly the active owners.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 06:53 am, by: Matthew Sharpe(Madmatt)
Gawd in years gone by I've overtaken early/mid 90's Subaru Station Wagons driven by try hard surfer boys on Scenic Drive in my lowly UZZ30 and watched them desperately try to keep up in my rear view mirror. Of course they were probably crap drivers, and in the wet it would probably be quite different too.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 07:00 am, by: Mike Beck(Gold_40gt)
Yeah though so! Its just the problem with people that dont know anything about detailed soarers - they jump to the common conclusion that they are v8 that handles poorly.
I mean its there loss, they can miss out on such a good car!
I find this picture makes them have a second thought about its handling, Its flatter than a bloody race spec porsche for god sake!
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 09:31 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
One thing to remember is the actives are heavy and I would have to say the lighter WRX's that I have driven diffinetely have the edge at lower speeds say under 60km/hr. From what I have driven the AWD system gets power down out of corners better than any I have driven, combine that will the light weight I think that would give them the edge at those speeds.
At high speed 100km/hr plus I have never seen a car that goes around corners like an Active.
I haven't had mine for all that long and I'm sure I am still learning to get the best out of it with tyre pressure and such. My car also has poor tyres that are only 16's.
The best overall performance package I have seen was a Turbo charged MX5 with coil overs. This thing went around corners like a go cart, spine breaking harshness though where as the active is silky smooth with great add on features (EMV leather the list goes on). I know which car I would rather drive.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:01 am, by: Steven Anderson(Cusscuss)
Just because a car remains flat around a corner does not make it automatically handle well. There are lots and lots of other factors to it as well.
Physics is going to play a large part in any car handling, a lighter car will always have to put less of an effort to get around a corner at the same speed as a heavier one. Pure grip is also a big factor, ie 335 wide tires on the back of a viper that mean that it does handle well, but some cars do it by different methods.
Also, 4wd effects corner exit speed mostly, its not gonna give any more lateral grip so for the most part of a corner a car could be 1wd and it would still go round it the same, it will still effect the balancing of the car though.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 03:06 pm, by: Daniel Clarke(Dieseltrain)
I was of the opinion that an LSD eqipped Soarer would corner better than a non LSD equipped soarer??? As the power to the outside wheel helps drive the car round the corner. Where the inside wheel on the single spinner may be getting all the power and the outside wheel just rolling, not helpong drive the outside of the car around the bend..
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 04:35 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Steven, there is a lot more to handling than weight alone. The physic equations you are talking about actually rule at the mass of the car in terms of how fast it car corner.
Therefore a heavier car would handel the same as a lighter car but in practice what happens with a heavier car is for the same handling it would then would require a stiffer spring. The stiffer springs make the ride harsher, car manufactures build cars to suit the market and most people don't want a harsh ride so they put in a spring that in comparison is softer to give a better ride with poorer handling. Its a trade off, the main area which it is noticeable is the handling isn't as good at low speed.
There is also some momentum issue with added weight that reduce the agility of the heavier cars. While this sounds bad and it is for low speed cornering is somewhat of a benfit at high speed. The car is much more stable at higher speeds and less effected by imperfections in the road surface.
IMO from all the cars that I have driven the best overall weight compromise is about 1350 to 1400kg.
So although theoretically weight is cancelled out of the mathematical equation and has no effect on the force required for a car to go around a corner the reality is it does matter.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 04:52 pm, by: Jeff Wilkins(Calin)
Damian what theory are you trying to find that says weight (mathematically or otherwise) has no bearing on cornering ability?
The more mass any object has while being forced to move in a curve the more force is required to keep that mass moving in that given curve. Its inertia/momentum wants it to go in a straight line not turn a corner!
Go for a spirited drive in something light with nice weight balance (mx5, Series 2,3 RX7 comes to mind). These light cars handle bloody well out of the box (even if they couldn't pull the skin off custard hehe).
A soarer being a bit of barge-ass has a tenancy for under steer at speed. The greater the speed, the greater the under steer. Its weight is a DIRECT factor in this.
As to the image of the porsche not remaining as flat as the active and therefore not handling as well. I seriously doubt it.
Id hazard a guess and say that porsche has greater corner speed still. That is after all, the measure of good handling. Not how flat the car sits (that just looks great).
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 05:16 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Thats right Neil, there is a lot too it, an active might not compete with a Group A but it will be a lot smoother though.
As to the handling theory I did a subject on it a long time ago at uni just out of interest. It was more of an introduction to car dynamics and mostly physics theory of forces and momentum.
The theory is still handy and I used it a lot to achieve better balance and do faster lap times out of my RC cars. The funny thing is a softer spring often gives more grip as you transfer more weight the the outside tyres and results in faster lap times. The problem is with softer springs the car is less stable, they lean more and they become more unstable under brakes.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 05:38 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
The other problem with softer springs is more camber change. That is what the active is trying to prevent and it does make a difference.
Jeff, you seem to imply that merely increasing weight with the same cenre of mass and proportional spring rates will increase understeer. That does not meet any theory I know. Nor does an increase in weight theoretically reduce cornering speed given a proportional increase in downforce. However, handling will most probably be worse because polar inertia (not centripetal force) makes the car less willing to change orientation. Cornering speed and handling are different things. Damian was right so far as I read him, even though road experience will often suggest otherwise, as you have found.
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 09:28 pm, by: Jeff Wilkins(Calin)
Really wasnt going to throw downforce into the equation David, as the vehicles we're refering to really have relatively negligible aerodynamic downforce.
I agree wholeheartedly that increasing downforce proportionally to the weight will ensure very similar handling characteristics. However maintaining the same aerodynamic profile while increasing mass....
Having said that I re-read what Damian wrote and realised I'd missed part of his dialogue.....oops
Namely: "...it would then would require a stiffer spring."
Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:52 pm, by: Aaron Klaver(Nakedterror)
To get some ideas on lap times that other cars are doing, here are the results for the last wrx club day - note the times for the standard group. They are allowed ONLY rubbish Falken Azenis and different brake pads. And only the open class and some of the associate class run full slicks. The rest are on Semi comp like Dunlop D01J or RE55s
Put the active and the B-4 on street tyres (or slicks) and race again - would be a heap closer, I reckon the •• might just nail the 32 if the bloke behind the wheel can steer. A stock legacy wagon would be struggling though.
Slicks vs road tyres, I reckon there would be a minimum 6 second difference around the island. Huge cornering speeds there, slicks make all the difference.
Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 08:11 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
David, I wasn't going start on geometry but that also makes a very big difference.
When my bro and I changed the suspension in his VS we spent a lot of time adjusting the geometry to get it just right. The difference was huge.
I have found the correct geometry on RC again makes a very big difference. When it comes to production cars I have assumed that the manufacture has correctly designed the geometry to suit.
RC cars well the list is extensive, I started a long time ago with off road electrics for just a bit of fun. I left it at the end of high school and for the first two years of uni. I then got back into and started racing on road nitro. I was running a V1S which was a great car. I have alway run the stock classes because I like to get the most out of what I have got rather than spend s fortune to get the latest more powerfull engine and lightweight parts.
I then went down the path of a Mugen MSX another stock car but a very different car to the V1S. It was ok but there was issue that I wasn't able to overcome with the regulations at the time. They have since been changed and I think this would be a very very quick cornering car. The motor seemed to also have a problem with this car. One of my keys to success was my reliablity mostly due to engine tune. No matter what I did with the MV12 I just couldn't get it tuned right. I had some of the best tuning gurus in Australia have a go at it and I tried 3 different brand new engines.
I then went back to electrics and I starting racing F1's. That was great fun and I still would be doing it now but it is night racing and of the opposite side of town to where I work and now live.
If anyone is looking for a near new F1 electric with brand new motor and all the hop up parts (some still brand new in bags) I have one for sale. This car has only seen 5 race meets 3 as stock and 2 with upgraded shocks and gear ratios.
Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 02:58 pm, by: Phil Gibson(Sciflyer)
Just on the suspension theory again, correct me if im wrong but ive always thought that anti-roll bars are a necessary evil in suspension because of the way they work, in order to keep the body level they load up the outside wheel while unloading the inside wheel which is not what you want for ultimate grip
One of the reasons why in rallying Citroen went for the Kinetic suspension system is because it does away with ARBs because they limit suspension response and travel which is particularily important in this case.
Also, you are effectively linking the left and right wheels which detracts somewhat from the point of independant suspension (more of an issue with stiff bars though)
So as Jeff said, do not equate less roll in a corner with better handling, look at V8 Supercars for example
Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 03:12 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
It depends on the setup, sway bars can be used to reduce the role of the car. In this case you can have soft spring for a nice ride and better grip in acceleration and decceleration and still be stiff enough around corners to have reasonable stabilty to power out of brake late.
The other method which I'm not really familiar with sort of does the reverse. It pulls the inside wheel onto the ground, so while the car leans in a corner the inside has less grip the bar corrects this by allow the car to lean but you still have grip on all four wheels.
I think Mark knows a fair bit about this, we spoke a few weeks back about it. Since then my memory has been jogged and I remember some of what was covered. I think this system is used in coaches and Rovers which tend to lean alot in corners.
I am keen to learn more about this as it could be the key to success in the MSX.
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