| Author |
Message |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1296
Reg: 07-2005
|
Nice logging.
I don't know why people would have a PFC and not get the datalogit.
Could the higher knock readings just be engine noise at high rpm. AFAIK the stock ecu doesn't use them above 5500rpm or something like that as it couldn't differentiate knock from engine noise. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1223
Reg: 07-2005
|
Adam Sanders wrote on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 12:57 am:So assuming someone bought a stock TT soarer for say 10k how much would it cost to get to an 11 second pass ie ( value of all the equipment on your car ) ?
gearbox = 2400
stall converter = 400
power fc + datalogit + map sensor = 2500
turbo conversion = 5700
MT drag radials = 550
torsen diff = 600
injectors = 650
fuel pump = 150
Hks type dli = 400
tranny cooler = 180
turbo cover = 220
supra stick = 520
catch can = 120
engine mounts = 350
= 14740. You could do it cheaper by going cheap on turbo conversion, like using korean turbo (internal wastegate), cheap bov, cheaper lines, go MV manualizer instead of suprastick, no catch can, stock mounts. Maybe lessen total by 4000 by doing that, but compromise on the quality and relieablity.
Remember also you can sell the gear some of this stuff replaces, so you can get some money back. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1224
Reg: 07-2005
|
Chris Davey wrote on Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 06:03 am:Could the higher knock readings just be engine noise at high rpm. AFAIK the stock ecu doesn't use them above 5500rpm or something like that as it couldn't differentiate knock from engine noise.
Possible, but I did hear some noise on the last run towards the end that was only there for a millisecond. The previous run were I did 116.90mph sounded clean,
The advanced knock map trace for drag run 4. Much less knock on this run.
The basic knock map trace for drag run 4. Again much less knock on this run.
The run itself, I took off with lower boost and rpm on this run and you can see it bogged a tiny bit. I think this was a 1.900 60'. But look at the knock graph, virtually no knock. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 1592
Reg: 03-2006
|
See how the Boost tapers off towards your trap speed and end of 1/4 mile run.... Get that Blitz IBC istalled and have it cranking more boost and you will probably get a little more mph and a slight quicker et
It doesnt drop by much, but the EBC wont drop at all!
Actually the boost tapers off over 6000rpm on almost all of your runs.. The EBC will definately help this
Also, What is your wastegate spring set at for Boost? the EBC will also hold this closed until boost comes on for even better turbo boost response when it comes to running big boost! |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1225
Reg: 07-2005
|
Yeah thats a problem we noticed on the dyno also. I got the blitz sbc id 3 installed last night, but haven't really tuned it yet, so yavuz might be playing around with it on the dyno. I was trying to tune 23psi last night and its just a smoke fest in 2nd gear when I nail it.
My wastegate is set to 13psi. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 1594
Reg: 03-2006
|
Maybe Re adjust your wastegate spring to 18psi.
This will make it easier to adjust any boost controller as it is only having to bleed of alot less air maybe? |
Richard Johnson
TryHard
Florida, USA
SC300 1JZ-GTE Swap
Posts: 226
Reg: 06-2006
|
What size turbo are you running? I would imagine your somewhere in the 400whp range? |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
USDM 2J camshafts installed!
JZZ30
Posts: 1859
Reg: 07-2005
|
Or you could just look in his profile.. |
Richard Johnson
TryHard
Florida, USA
SC300 1JZ-GTE Swap
Posts: 227
Reg: 06-2006
|
aww thats a baby snail! I'm impressed with the results for something that small! |
Shane Crichton
TryHard
NSW
Cressida Turbo
Posts: 134
Reg: 03-2006
|
glad to hear about the 11 ben, top work |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1231
Reg: 07-2005
|
Thanks shane, means a lot from mr 10.0 in a 1jz
I did a check over my car before the dyno day on saturday and I found a slight oil leak from my auto tranny cooler. Seems the massive pressure built up when stalling the convertor causes a lot of stress on the cooler fittings. I'm using regular rubber hose and hose clamps on proper lipped piped, but looks like I might need proper speedflow fitting. I redid the fitting again, so see if it holds for next time, which might be this friday. |
Ben Daniel
Goo Roo
WA
Twin Turbo
Posts: 1126
Reg: 03-2006
|
This maybe a stupid question, but what is a HKS DLI ?? |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1233
Reg: 07-2005
|
It's an ignition amp. Basically it boosts the spark strength without changing the stock ignitor which requires an aftermarket ecu (other than a power fc) to drive it. The end result is I can run an 11 sec quarter, make 300rwkw and still run 0.8mm stock spark gap. |
Richard Johnson
TryHard
Florida, USA
SC300 1JZ-GTE Swap
Posts: 228
Reg: 06-2006
|
Wow, I'm impressed again if your doing that with 400whp in a Soarer!
Your making my hopes get better. I'm currently at 12psi on my new setup and around 390whp, I was thinking I would be high 12s, but maybe just maybe I can do better then what I orlginally planned on that level! |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1236
Reg: 07-2005
|
Richard, aussie dynos read different to US dynos. 300rwkw here is like 350rwkw over there. Someone well know the exact figure, chris? |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1297
Reg: 07-2005
|
yeah, they are about 15% higher from everything I have seen. So 300rwkwAU is about 353rwkwUS. or 400rwhpAU is about 470rwhpUS. |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
USDM 2J camshafts installed!
JZZ30
Posts: 1878
Reg: 07-2005
|
International conspiracy Chris? 
Richard, incase you neglected to realise - a bigger turbo won't have anywhere near the amount of area under the power curve. That has can have certain dire implications regarding achievable quarter mile times when NOS isn't concerned.
Stock twins with 280-290rwhp pull high 12's, flat 13's in Australia on street tyres with NO transmission work. It can be contributed to the fact that they make full power by 4,500rpm or less and hold onto it! 60fts are easy to drop into the sub 2's, and getting off the line without a 10,000,000rpm stall converter is easy.
You're probably considering NOS after seeing 1JZ.747's results, thats probably the best decision for a GT40 strapped to the side of a relatively tiny 1JZ. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1238
Reg: 07-2005
|
Thats a big point, no nitrous or giant stall convertor = 12's or 13's at 11ty billion miles per hour when using a big turbo on a small 1jz engine. |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1298
Reg: 07-2005
|
I can attest to that! Although not quite 11ty billion but 114 on low boost |
Richard Johnson
TryHard
Florida, USA
SC300 1JZ-GTE Swap
Posts: 233
Reg: 06-2006
|
My GT40 spools full power at around 4500rpm just like the twins do.
Poeple here in America think the twins are instant spool, but if you ever dyno a twin car, they don't make any power til around 4500. They just "feel" fast. My GT40-88 spools exactly the same as twins, just less "felt" power under the spool curve. I wouldn't even call it lag. My car is not laggy at all.
In 1st gear in the STOCK auto at idle and punching it, it spools exactly the same as stock turbos. At about 4 grand, its a wheel spin machine til 8 grand. The only difference is... I'm making about 100 more whp at 12psi on my GT 40 as i was on the twins at 18psi.
You'd be amazed how a 1JZ spools a turbo. My car spools my 65mm turbo faster then my friends 2JZGTE with a 66mm, same exhaust housing size. My sponsor MTR (www.manictechracing.com), we don't put anything less then a 65mm inducer turbo on a 1JZ. A GT4067R is probably the best street turbo for a 1JZGTE ever made. He was doing 11's in his test car on 93 octane pump gas, then upgraded it to a GT42R.
The only weakness we found with 1JZGTEs is. A buddy "Smiley" here dyno'd his 1JZGTE stock bottom end car to 1080whp at 9krpm, but it blew up on the drive home. So basically, its exactly as strong as a 2jzgte. We thought it would be stronger due to shorter rods. |
Maurice Diggler
Goo Roo
Victoria
Twin Turbo
Posts: 1258
Reg: 06-2006
|
Richard Johnson wrote on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:14 pm:My GT40 spools full power at around 4500rpm just like the twins do.
pfffffft.
Pigs fly also? |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
USDM 2J camshafts installed!
JZZ30
Posts: 1885
Reg: 07-2005
|
Honestly Richard i don't know what to say. All this talk about 'felt' power and feeling etc is non sense to me.
I don't think being an American ever changed anyones' perception of acceleration.
You're telling me a 700hp turbo spools just as fast as factory ceramic twins in first gear; either theres some more of that American anti-gravity stuff going on or one of us is telling tales. Naughty naughty. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1245
Reg: 07-2005
|
Richard brings this up all the time. I show conclusive graph of boost curve of a gt30/1jz combo on street saying its not as responsive as stockers yet its a smaller turbo than his gt40.
Make a graph of boost vs rpm curve on the street(flat road) in a direct drive gear with locked converter and get back to us. |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1302
Reg: 07-2005
|
seconded. still waiting for any proof.
My turbo makes 15psi at 4200rpm. 57mm comp inducer, t3 .63 turbine a/r, non bb.
I struggle to see how a 65mm compressor, larger t4 exhaust housing even with smaller a/r can do the same thing. Non bb also.
3rd gear, converter locked, flat road. datalog. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 1621
Reg: 03-2006
|
3rd Gear Stock Twins Convertor locked, Started spooling at 2300rpm( Ie positive boost pressure), I seen 8psi by 3000rpm under half throttle!!!
Couldnt do a full throttle run as it wanted to kick down! |
Maurice Diggler
Goo Roo
Victoria
Twin Turbo
Posts: 1261
Reg: 06-2006
|
On a private freeway the other day I had the car in 4th gear with the converter still locked going 150kph making 18psi! lol... It took me from 100-150kph to get the boost that high, but it was pulling like a steam train! |
Anton Jones
TryHard
QLD
JZZ30
Posts: 137
Reg: 08-2005
|
Hey Ben, Well done mate.
QN's:
1. What size and type of tyre did you use?
2. With the FC logger are you logging the knock values from the front or rear (or avg of both)?
3. So you spike to <100 knock is that right? Does that coincide with the gear change? (I find mine spike s after the gear change). |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1355
Reg: 07-2005
|
1) Mickey thompson ET streets, 255/50/16
2) its an average.
3) yes I find my one can knock a little but on high vaccum as there is a lot of timing, but fine as engine is not under big load. It's different on an auto but as you don't go into vaccum on gear change as you can see the graphs. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1356
Reg: 07-2005
|
I updated this today with all the runs I've done but one (the one I ran a 1.595 60 ft, bugger) that i've logged with the fc datalogit software.
Note how there is 4 runs that have very close trap speed on the graph, yet you look at the trap speed that was logged by WSID and its all over the place, from 111.02mph - 116.90mph. I don't get it. Then look at the other 3 runs that have very close trap which were all screw ups with wheel spin or terrible gear changes and they trap between 107.98mph - 116.75mph. What the hell is going on.
With the 11.966 run you can kind of see how it starts loosing out at half track to the 11.94 run. This is due to less boost being run.
11.94 run had between 1.68 sliding down to 1.56 kg/cm2 of boost from changing to 3rd till finish line. The 11.966 run had 1.56 sliding down to 1.52 kg/cm2. Reason for this is I moved from a bleed valve to a blitz sbc ID 3 and haven't quiet matched the boost settings compared to before. |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30
Posts: 1978
Reg: 07-2005
|
Doesn't make sense to me either. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1357
Reg: 07-2005
|
The two boost plots for the 11 second runs. A bleed valve vs a proper electronic boost controller.
The 0-100 times for these runs are,
4.281 for the 11.94 run
4.313 for the 11.966 run
60ft times where
1.689 for the 11.94 run
1.659 for the 11.966 run
That boost spike to a bit over 24psi made that run quicker, even thru it pulled about 2-3 degrees of timing out, seems like it makes more power. Going to be interesting with some good fuel in it. |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30
Posts: 1979
Reg: 07-2005
|
How are your AFR's from 15psi onwards?
It'd be interesting to see how much advance you can recover by dropping the AFR a ratio. At high boost it makes a huge difference. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1358
Reg: 07-2005
|
Flat 12 to high 11 afr's at high boost. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1360
Reg: 07-2005
|
More stats. I love stats
Coolant temperature in the 12-13 seconds of most of the runs I have looked at increased between 4-7 degrees in that short amount of time. That's a lot energy. |
Brian Kelly
Tinkerer
Colorado USA
NA Inline 6 2JZ
Posts: 19
Reg: 04-2007
|
Damn, thats pretty quick. mines an N/A though, so i can't really compare. my pb's only a 16.9. Haha. |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30
Posts: 1980
Reg: 07-2005
|
Do you have an inline trans temp readout Ben, would be interesting to see how hot it gets pushing full boost while stationary 
Also, since you love stats so much ;)
How far do intake temps climb from burnout, stage, to trap? |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1366
Reg: 07-2005
|
From memory, they stay static during the burnout and drop during the run. Stock air temp sensor however is very lazy. Yes trans temp would be interesting to see over the run. |
Braden Murdoch
DieHard
NSW
Cressida 1JZ TT
Posts: 570
Reg: 04-2006
|
11.96 @ 111.02mph, that means I can run an 11 if I get my 60 foot down to the 1.6x range
Great times man, I find all these stats fascinating! I'd be interested to see your intake and trans temps too. |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1369
Reg: 07-2005
|
except that the logs show that the 111trap speed was actually higher than some of the 116mph ones.
I have found the opposite with intake temps. It seems to heatsoak easily and then basically stay there e.g. sitting on say 32deg cruising down the highway, come to a set of lights and it will go up to about 45 and then take a long time to come back down again. I was going to fit a JE camira air temp sensor in the cooler pipe if I ever got around to it. |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1368
Reg: 07-2005
|
You'll find your trap speed well drop with lower 60ft. However I'm not a total believer in that trap speed as the graph shows it has close to the same speed at the ET as a run that recorded 116.90mph. Has me completely confused. |
Braden Murdoch
DieHard
NSW
Cressida 1JZ TT
Posts: 572
Reg: 04-2006
|
True true...
I find heatsoak on mine takes ages to come back down too. I just spray my intercooler with metho before the runs which helps a bit. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 1919
Reg: 03-2006
|
Metho •••??? I normally just use water. Maybe Metho + water mix next time?
SOunds Coool... Hahahahah! |
Benjamin Burgess
Goo Roo
NSW
Toyota Soarer GT-TL, Toyota Corolla Conquest
Posts: 1371
Reg: 07-2005
|
Metho would make it dry quicker I assume. Have been reading an interesting thread about water injection on an RB25DET. Might solve a lot of my timing problems at big boost. Seems you can really pile in the timing and run ratios like 12.9 afr with water injection. |
Cihan Aday
Goo Roo
The blue pill or the ultimate pill, make your choice.
JZZ30
Posts: 1982
Reg: 07-2005
|
Thats where a richer mixture comes in, japanese tuners run the 1J's at 10.5:1-11:1 full bore 25psi+ and don't drop timing more than 0.8-1 degree per psi. The power gain from going from 12:1 - 12.5:1 is about 1-3kw atw. In regards to longevity and reliability its a backwards thing to do, cylinder temps and EGT's are unnecessarily high and the power comes at the cost of advance which is nearly always more beneficial in a turbocharged engine at high boost. At lower boost (1bar), fine - leaner mixtures with less advance reduce turbo lag, but once the engine is at that efficiency/flow point and boost is ramping on fast a richer mixture is beneficial in controlling detonation. There's no point sacrificing a degree of advance that's going to net you 5rwkw, to run a leaner mixture (upto 12.5:1) which is going to net you 2rwkw. At 25psi - you're already running ~15degrees less than optimal advance; each degree means a lot more than it did running 15psi.
Water injection is crap for long term usage, although for drag-only use it will make a good difference. Compressor wear is important to consider if you're going down that route, i don't think many designs are implemented after the turbo due to the intake pressure etc, not too sure about that one.
In your case, after the cams i think you'll find its time to upgrade the compressor side of thing. It makes sense that tuning is becoming difficult as compressor inefficiencies grow.
A 3040 cold side maybe, they come up to 600hp.
As long as ex manifold pressure is okay at that level (it should be fine with the 0.82 housing) - a custom hybrid like that might be what you need for mid 11s and faster |
Chris Davey
Goo Roo
QLD
Corona
Posts: 1372
Reg: 07-2005
|
Why do you say WI is crap long term? Personally I would only bother using it for drags anyway. 1 low boost tune for the street with 98RON. I high boost tune for the track with some 100-102ron and water injection.
Unless you can't get decent fuel in your area then WI for street as well.
Most systems I have seen inject it after intercooler and before throttle body. I know what you are saying about the water mist on the compressor and I think that is why most place it post turbo now.
The gains are there to be had I reckon. This rb25 dude is making 295rwkw at 18psi with a gt3076R, 57mm comp inducer. (slightly bigger than ben's)
He said he could continue to advance timing until past MBT with the WI. That is a bloody good safety margin I reckon. It will be interesting to see his results with more boost.
Also, if Ben was to get it I don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial. As the turbo is nearing its limits, intake charge temps are rising, he is running very retarded timing to keep knock surpressed, some water/meth injection to cool things down a bit and give him back some timing and still keep the fuelling around the high 11's (rather than Japanese style tuning).
I reckon I would get it if I didn't have nitrous |
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