| Author |
Message |
Chris Hilton
Tinkerer
Victoria
TT
Posts: 78
Reg: 12-2006
|
Hi Everyone.
Well i got pulled over as in another thread. Told cant drive my car becuase im ovr 7kw @ flywheel per tonne for my TT soarer.
I drive a 1991 Soarer, so 15 years old, done 140,000km. How many kilowatts would i have lost from these type of kilometers? ALOT to say the least. Only mods is exhaust and air intake. Id be lucky to get 140 @ the wheels. My car is measures at laden weight of 1.56tonne. We all know no way a soarer weights 1.56tonne with sub, speaks, exhaust, petrol, person, oil, coolant ect its way more.
Finally the officer was a senior constable Pettett. Goes around deliberately singling out P plate drivers. You want proof? heres some links
http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46092
http://melbccr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57532
Search on any forums you will find Pettett.
Today i called up a solicitor, and have booked a session for the near future.
Im going to start asking for events in which a P plate driver was pulled over by this particular officer and treated in a manner 'unfair' where stock statistics are thrown at the driver without any true upto date figgures (weight measurement + dyno).
if anyone has advice it would be appreciated.
Dont go posting 'move on with life' or whatever i dont want to hear it. I need support. I want to stand up for P plate drivers who have been unfairly charged.
I will be visiting my solicitor next week and hopefully be taking myself and this officer to court.
Wish me luck guys. Will post updates
Chris |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 3354
Reg: 07-2005
|
Chris, good luck with it. On the power side of the case, arguing your rwkw at 140 will not go far unless you can also show that a newer stock Soarer has more rwkw and thus prove you have lost flywheel kW. Otherwise, they will just say "how do you know that is not the normal difference between flywheel and wheels?"
Even if your power is lower, you will have to be convincing that this is not just normal variation. They are not going to be fussed about the policeman's behaviour if he was being "reasonable" about average expectations. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 1997
Reg: 03-2006
|
Mate good luck, but i will say this.
An exhaust and intake mod will push you WAY past 140rwkw! We saw a stock TT and i MEAN BOG STOCK push 150+rwkw at a measly stock 9psi of boost!
But how can you prove that even 140rwkw is less than the factory 206kw @ the flywheel? Drivetrain loss is there but how can you prove a formula with evidence that your correct! and they will want to see this.
The only way i can see you doing it, is to maybe get the car re weighed with the subs and stereo and see how it goes then! Even fill up some water bottles and hide them with the spare wheel, glovebox and under seats if you have to get more weight into it somewhere!
As i said best of luck with your challenge. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 2716
Reg: 10-2005
|
Sounds like its going to be expensive, but good luck anyway! |
Chris Hilton
Tinkerer
Victoria
TT
Posts: 79
Reg: 12-2006
|
hi guys,
firstly im going to be going to the internal review board.
SO far im getting statements from other drivers pulled over by this particular officer.
view here:http://forums.melbccr.com/showthread.php?p=1192823#post1192823
If this doesnt work then ill take it to court. Im having my car dynoed and weighed this weekend, so i should be able to post up the results then.
hi daniel yeh i know they do. The stock air intake will be put back on for the dyno. thats how it will be anyway.
Hey matthew, yeah might cost a bit, but i have money and work fulltime so its not that big an issue. This needs to be done, for me and for other people being falsly accused due to ignorance.
take care all.
Chris |
Dragan Vidic
DieHard
Vic
soarer tt
Posts: 699
Reg: 07-2005
|
Yeh ive been done by him twice and so have a few other members of this forum and just about every one i know. just stay away from knox!!! its a NO GO ZONE for young drivers especially ones with imports |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 39
Reg: 08-2006
|
Hmmm. You need to decide what it is you're trying to achieve here. If it's just about defending yourself on the power thing then David and Daniel have given you some good things to think about.
That will be difficult enough, but from what I gather you seem to be contemplating some sort of harassment action against this officer and that will be an even tougher one for you.
As David says, the issue then will be less about what he found than whether it was 'reasonable' for him to start looking in the first place and whether there was any aggression or intimidation in the process - and the burden will fall to you.
Experience will be a strong enough defence for him. He only has to say something like "Well, I have conducted examinations of many modified cars driven by P platers in the past and often enough (which doesn't have to be very often) it has come to light that the cars are too powerful. It was reasonable for me to inspect this car because the circumstances are similar enough (i.e. P plate driver + modified car) that there is a reasonable prospect the same would be the case this time". It obviously doesn't help you that he was either right or close to right about that.
It isn't enough to show that the guy picks on P platers. He can easily establish that he has 'good' reason to.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade here Chris. Personally I'd love to see you have a win, but realistically I don't see you have a lot of ammunition. Anyway, see what your lawyer reckons. |
Chris Hilton
Tinkerer
Victoria
TT
Posts: 80
Reg: 12-2006
|
Hi peter,
yeh ill see what the solicitor has to say. I just want to be able to drive my car legally without worrying when i see a police officer. It will also help those who are accused aswel by giving them hope and knowledge the legal system does work |
Chris Hilton
Tinkerer
Victoria
TT
Posts: 81
Reg: 12-2006
|
Frstly im writing a letter to the Internal Review board regarding this manner and the way i was treated by this particular officer |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 2000
Reg: 03-2006
|
Put some V8 Badges on it and tell them the bonnet cable is broken and you cant open it. And change your number plates!
Hehe, i know these wont work, but hey, why not try |
Dragan Vidic
DieHard
Vic
soarer tt
Posts: 700
Reg: 07-2005
|
The rules are 125kw per tone from factory. Our cars are over. Thats all there is to it. I would love to see you win but i dont think the judge is going to want to hear about some calculations, which may or may not be accurate. Besides his side's argument is just as strong, as you can increase the power with a boost controller, cooler, exhaust, aftermarket ECUs etc, etc therefore evening it out.
If they thought it was unfair, they wouldn't have made the rules the way they did in the first place.
I must say, as much of a prick as he is, hes very professional and stays well within boundries of what he can and cant do, leaving u with very little to argue against.
Although, its about time someone stood up to him, so good on ya mate. If you think you dont have a lot to loose and if you belive you got a chance, than go for it.
Best of luck!!!! |
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 685
Reg: 08-2005
|
Dragan is right. Do yourself a big favour and give up. The rules are there. They are published. I believe a list of prohibited cars is still published. You broke the rules. You did. You knowingly broke the rules as they stand.
DO NOT take on a police officer. Your life will be made much harder in the future. Do not get yourself into this trouble. He did not bash you or steal something from your car or anything like that, which internal affairs would give a sh!t about. You will lose, and you will have a number of police officers with serious hard-ons for you.
I cannot stress this enough. Give up. |
Gregg Holden
Trader
WA
Soarer UZZ31 Supercharged
Posts: 693
Reg: 08-2005
|
Chris have you ascertained the exact law regarding the weight to power ratio for P Platers in Vic? I thought it was mentioned here by someone that they take the manufacturers specifications. Regardless if that is accurate or not you are attempting to overturn a law that is currently in place.
If that's the case your solicitor should advise you against wasting any time/money justifying your existing weight/power setup. Instead you would be better off lobbying to the specific state Government department that has made that law. To do so would probably require a signed partition of significant size and then lots of time to continually write to the right pollies for a law amendment. You would have to have very good justification for your case which on the surface I would think would be extremely difficult.
Personally I don't like your chances. If the law does state manufacturers specs then they would have done this to keep administration down and avoid people attempting to get around the system by adding weight etc. At the end of the day that is not sustainable for a govt department to manage and introduces all sorts of issues regarding compliance and insurance especially where an accident occurs and parts of the car are separated....
In regards to this particular officer I agree with Peter Beer. If there is just cause that your vehicle is infringing laws and further you actually get ticketed for breaking the written laws your have buckleys chance of going anywhere with it.
It would be different if he was pulling over every import driver and either not finding anything to raise a ticket for or fining for things that are not illegal. Then there could be a possible case for public harassment. However if he is pinging everyone he stops for non compliance to local laws then quite frankly he is more likely to be promoted than anything else.
I know you said you didn't want to hear any of this and by all means continue with your solicitor but I'd caution against throwing away a tonne of money, time and effort for no result. Basically do as much research yourself first...
 |
Benjamin Spitalnic
Tinkerer
Victoria
Soarer TT 6 cylinder  Beeman says. Go HARD or Go HOME!
Posts: 54
Reg: 05-2007
|
I will pray to god for you Chris. so that you can over power the bull5hit law against 125kw per tonne.. so that one day i can drive my soarer again. |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 40
Reg: 08-2006
|
I think you've given yourself up there Chris.
"I just want to be able to drive my car legally..."
The way it is, you're not.
So what I think you REALLY want is to be able to drive your car illegally and not be noticed for it. So either live with the status quo and try to mitigate your chances of being picked up or one of three things has to change:
1) The law (good luck with that, but if you're really determined Gregg has mapped out the route for you); or
2) Your car (needs to be a different one, even a stock TT is a problem); or
3) You (you need to be off P plates)
and sorry to be gloomy about this, but 3) will happen a long time before 1) does even if you start on 1) right now with a warchest full of $$$ and the best lobbyists in town. |
Lew Radbourn
Trader
Queensland
jzs147 92 / 95 jzz31 98' / jzz30 ute92' / uzz30 93'/ 2 X uzz31 92' s
Posts: 2006
Reg: 07-2005
|
hang on;;
so if the law states 125kw per ton.that is correct?
there for our cars weigh on average 1.7 ton
there for roughly we are allowed 219 kw
the twin turbo is rated at 205kw ?
chris just get you car onto a weigh bridge and have it documented
then get the specs of the car from the manufacturer
regardless of your mods.
if you have to push it further than that
dyno the car and calculate through the drive line to what you should have through the wheels
most stock soarers will put out around 128rwkw in factory standard form.
BUT this is not what thay are asking for thay are asking for flywheel Kw's
Good luck mate there has only been one other guy i know of that has beeten the police with this when it went to court.
and it all started from Knox city .
|
Kyle Wathen
Tinkerer
Vic
GTTL
Posts: 93
Reg: 02-2007
|
VICROADS website:
"If you are a probationary licence holder, it is your responsibility to make sure that any vehicle you drive is not a high powered motor vehicle.
You can:
* check with the manufacturer for engine power and vehicle weight information; and
* calculate the capacity to weight ratio
If your car is modified, you may also need to obtain an engineer's certificate and do your own calculations."
There is some hope it states there you can get an engineers certificate, be prepared to put a lot of time and $$$ into this though...
Some other useful info
"From 1 July 2007 the penalty for driving a high powered vehicle will be three demerit points and a maximum fine of approximately $1100. These penalties will apply to both the current power to weight restrictions and the new high powered vehicles restrictions." |
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 551
Reg: 10-2005
|
Depends which TT model but my understanding is the TT Lux pack weights in at 1650kg that puts the power at 206.25kw. (Using 125kw per tonne)
The rego stickers are often incorrect, my dad's 4WD from factory weights in a 2.2 tonne yet the rego sticker has 1700kg on it.
The power figure is calculated from the kerb weight of the vehicle, you maybe able to get yours weight given it is a import and you could probably argue manufactures data is not available. My understanding, you should check this but the power rating is taken off the factory specifications for your model which was specified as 206kw. I believe they will not take age into consideration as every vehicle is different, they will base the decision on the original manufactures specifications.
You will find your car probably has 150kg extra on road weight over the kerb weight. (This is an educated guess, fuel, oil, water, stereo, CD's ect)
Therefore even if it that kerb weight was the 1560kg as specified in the specifications section on this website if it was weighted it will probably come out to Lew's figure of 1700kg.
I would see if you can clarify the manufactures specifications for kerb weight for the Lux pack. If this figure provides you with a max power rating of over 206kw I think you will be in a position to take this further. |
Ben Kelly
Tinkerer
Lidcombe
v8
Posts: 97
Reg: 08-2005
|
umm just my two bobs worth. the police a law unto themselves. Therefore dont bother. Secondly lawyers are the biggest theiving bastards of all time. better off keeping your hard earned $$$ in your own pocket (unless you fancy paying 250-350 per consult and say 70$ per telephone call, and say $150 for reading a letter etc.) •••• my lawyer charged me $50 when HE called ME to ask me to settle the account. |
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder
Posts: 2001
Reg: 03-2006
|
As far as weight goes, i have a Luxo pack with ABS + Tems , Woodgrain, No sunroof though.
At wsid on their scales 2 weeks ago, it tipped the scales at 1588kg's. NO SPARE WHEEL though! Car only had 25L of fuel also.
SO i guess the Technical Kerb weight ( minus fuilds and stuffs) would be the correct 1560kg.
And as mentioned, if you manage to make an officers life hard, they can do things in ways that will make yours very hard! |
Justin Cook
DieHard
QLD
JZZ30 TT
Posts: 963
Reg: 07-2005
|
Yup my TT which is a luxo 91 no TEMS, no sunroof, was 1650kg with me in it 72kg and 3/4 tank of gas. That was with full size spare tyre.
Soarers are not as heavy as everyone makes them out to be (especially the TT's). |
Piers McDonald
Tinkerer
NSW
Soarer JZZ30 TT-L
Posts: 40
Reg: 08-2006
|
I'm going to add my 2c that are going to make me sound like a seriously old fart with an attitude problem.
When I had my Ps (over ten years ago) everyone drove crap cars, cause that was all anyone could afford at 18. Cars were way more expensive back then and P-Platers were restricted to lower powered cars by sheer economy.
I happily went from an RA60 Celica to an MA70 Supra and now to a JZZ30 Soarer, and I'm quite thankful that I've had many years of experience driving lower powered cars that have made me (touch wood) a reasonably safe driver able to handle the power that a Soarer generates.
These days things are very different, P-platers can easily go out and buy themselves a turbo Skyline, 180SX or a Soarer and I'm afraid I don't believe that inexperienced drivers should be allowed to drive such vehicles on public roads.
In NSW there have been several high profile cases where inexperienced drivers have killed themselves and all their passengers while driving cars that should really be only driven by experienced drivers.
I know that if I had access to a turbo Soarer when I was 18, then I would have killed myself, or someone else. I just didn't have the level of judgement and restraint that I have now.
I would just relax, drive something else until you get your black licence and get another Soarer then. I'm assuming that if legally you are not allowed to drive the car, then you are probably not insured to drive it either, rendering any third party or comprehensive insurance invalid. Which could turn out to be very expensive in the case of an incident.
I'm afraid regardless of Constable Pettett's harassment of P platers, I'm actually going to side with him. I see turbo charged cars with P-Plates all the time (illegal in NSW) and I'm always asking myself why they can't just relax and wait a year or two. There are heaps of awesome non-turbo cars out there. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3118
Reg: 09-2005
|
Piers McDonald wrote on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:52 pm: There are heaps of awesome non-turbo cars out there.
What Piers is basically saying, is if you are such a mad keen racer on your P-Plates, get a Lotus Elise =P
I also want to add a story which might help add perspective to this..
The only driving offence i have had was a doosy, booked for 28kms over which equated to $250 and 4 points.
There is a whinge story that goes with this though... to this day i remain adament that i was going 70kph in a 50zone, however when the cop pulled me over he claimed i was doing up to 120kph. He backed this up by stating thats what he needed to travel at to keep up with me, however before he would have gotten in range he had to accellerate to catch up over 300m.
He said he would do me a favour by only booking me for 28kph over instead of the supposed 70kph over which he claimed i was doing.
I followed this up and looked in to some sort of claim to say that he was "picking on me" ... but at the end of the day its only $250 and 4points...
If it went to court i may have ended up losing my license and car for the supposed 70kph over the limit.
Remember, the law will always be kinder towards the Police officer than you! ;)
Just sell the damn Soarer and buy an Elise S already! =P |
Scott Ferguson
DieHard
Alberta
Soarer GTT-L
Posts: 662
Reg: 07-2006
|
My car in typical form is a hefty 1820 Kg's with myself in it and a full tank of gas, and stereo. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 2726
Reg: 10-2005
|
Piers McDonald wrote on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:52 pm:I know that if I had access to a turbo Soarer when I was 18, then I would have killed myself
I tend to think I'd have done the same. Though it does pay to remember that the newer cars teenagers drive now also stop and handle a lot better than our cars did when you and I were teens - at least until they lower them excessively and add poor quality wrong offset aftermarket wheels to them.
Still, I didn't get my first really powerful car until I was 22, and had been driving for 7 years - and even then I still had many hairy moments in it due to my own stupidity. |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
I have WAY less Soarers than Hayden :-(
Posts: 6209
Reg: 05-2005
|
My car at 18 was a 1957 Ford Customline. with a 272ci.V8 donk, 3 spd.column change manual, and the only POWER fitting was the Battery!
 |
Andrew Hargreaves
Tinkerer
NSW
2.5 TT
Posts: 78
Reg: 11-2006
|
Piers McDonald wrote on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:52 pm:
I know that if I had access to a turbo Soarer when I was 18, then I would have killed myself
Age and expierence have nothing to with it. How many older drivers are a danger on the roads. My old man had his SS up to 240km/h and only backed off because there was a corner. I had my TT Soarer when i was 18 and i made it quite easily and safely to 19. All these bans though are a load of BS. My mate has the restricitons on his liscence but his car can easily do 200km/h+.
At the end of the day its going to be tough to bet it because the cops write there own laws and the judge will take there side 9 times out of 10 |
Sergei Goloborodov
Tinkerer
Washington
Soarer TT
Posts: 7
Reg: 05-2007
|
Man you young guys down there have it rough. In my state the only restriction we have is that you can't carry any people (other then family members) for your first year. I don't entirely agree with the whole young drivers can't drive powerful cars. My first car was a V8 Tundra and I would always be taking out my moms GS430. I'm 22 now and sold the Tundra and got a Soarer and still alive =) Granted I'll be the first to admit I did some stupid stuff, and got booked once for it 110mph in a 60. (177kph in a 100). But I don't live down there and from what I've read it seems to be a much bigger problem with young guys wrecking their cars down there so maybe its needed. By the way, whats this point system you guys have? |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 2734
Reg: 10-2005
|
Don Bagnall wrote on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 05:08 pm:My car at 18 was a 1957 Ford Customline. with a 272ci.V8 donk, 3 spd.column change manual, and the only POWER fitting was the Battery!
My Dad used to race a Customline - pre-Mustang days - apparently when the Mustangs started arriving in numbers, he couldn't keep up any more so packed it in. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 2735
Reg: 10-2005
|
Andrew Hargreaves wrote on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:38 pm:Age and expierence have nothing to with it. How many older drivers are a danger on the roads.
Bet you don't think that way in another 10 years.  |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3126
Reg: 09-2005
|
Sergei Goloborodov wrote on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 06:02 am: My first car was a V8 Tundra and I would always be taking out my moms GS430.
Mate, you come from the land of big blocks. It would be political suicide for anyone to suggest some sort of power restriction for yunguns driving their trucks around. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 2740
Reg: 10-2005
|
Yeah, big, big trucks, with big big engines...
And tiny, tiny little brakes...
And leaf springs...
 |
Steven Nanevski
Goo Roo
New South Wales
HKS T3G equipped TT coming soon... 
Posts: 1298
Reg: 07-2005
|
By the looks of things Chris, your fighting a up hill battle, no one wants to support you  |
Jeff Wilkins
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 GT-TL
Posts: 408
Reg: 07-2005
|
Callum Finch wrote on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 09:53 am:It would be political suicide for anyone to suggest some sort of power restriction for yunguns driving their trucks around.
Wouldnt be the first time its happened mate. Well, similar anyway. Theres a power/weight ratio that must be obeyed by vehicle manufacturers in the states, been there since the mid-late 60s (cant remember the exact year, and cant be bothered checking).
Rumor has it that you can thank 'The Monkeys' and the Pontiac GTOs that they were driving, though that is probably bollocks.
Either way, it was the beginning of the end for the muscle car era...
Best of luck chris, I hope you have bloody deep pockets. |
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 691
Reg: 08-2005
|
Never heard that.. I was always under the impression that the petrol crisis and tightened emissions laws ended the muscle cars. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3131
Reg: 09-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 11:16 pm: I was always under the impression that the petrol crisis and tightened emissions laws ended the muscle cars.
Thats what i thought?
From about 1972 all the big blocks disappeared? |
Chris Wright
Tinkerer
Victoria
Soarer
Posts: 68
Reg: 01-2007
|
I think you should do what you think is right, no matter if the odds are against you, if you think you have a chance then go for it.
As Jeff said though, I hope you have deep pockets, because it's going to be a very expensive fight.
Best of luck! |
Jeff Wilkins
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 GT-TL
Posts: 409
Reg: 07-2005
|
Tightening emissions laws were certainly a major contributor, but then they were only applicable in SOME states at the time (1970 Clean Air Act) lol. The oil embargo, that caused petrol rationing in the US wasnt till 1973, by which time the muscle car era was pretty much dead (or at least suffering its last twitches - though I wouldnt say no to a '73/74 SD455 TA).
Big blocks were far less common but were still available till about 81.
When I next get to my brothers shed, Ill dig out the actual power/weight limitations imposed |
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 692
Reg: 08-2005
|
yes the super duty was indeed the end. it held some speed records for quite a while too. i believe the big deal of the clean air act was it mandated lower lead, and thus lower compression. and if you can't sell cars in a handful of states, that usually causes a company to change its whole line.
insurance also went through the roof on muscle cars, and kids were moving from muscle to pony. |
Adrain Parsons
TryHard
Qld
JZZ30 tt
Posts: 123
Reg: 08-2005
|
i agree with the law, in qld we only just got it,1/6/07, i see so many young drivers with high powered cars driving like there on a race track!! its crazy!! my first car was a 4cyl commoodre(those where the days lol)
young drivers need to learn how to drive before there allowed to have these high power cars. just becaue you have your licence doesnt meen your a good driver either, it takes years of practice to get there. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3141
Reg: 09-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 09:41 am:and kids were moving from muscle to pony.
I'd still consider a pony car a form of muscle car.. surely! ;) |
Jeff Wilkins
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 GT-TL
Posts: 411
Reg: 07-2005
|
Callum Finch wrote on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 09:55 am:I'd still consider a pony car a form of muscle car.. surely! ;)
Most mustang owners would agree with you there Callum.
Personally only a few of the 'weapon' mustangs fit the bill in my book. (Boss', Mach 1 etc.)
Somebodies definition:
Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.
Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO
Fullsize Muscle Car:
The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.
Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.
Pony Cars and Compact Cars:
In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.
Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.
Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:
Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.
Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.
Two Seat Sports Cars:
Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.
Examples: AMC AMX, etc. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 3148
Reg: 09-2005
|
Jeff Wilkins wrote on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 02:34 pm:Personally only a few of the 'weapon' mustangs fit the bill in my book. (Boss', Mach 1 etc.)
Good, beacuse im getting either a 1970 Boss or a 69 Mach1 =P
I will agree that the traditional hardtop/softop coupe with the small blocks wont qualify as a muscle car; engine must be >351 >.> (Boss 302 counts =P ) |
Damian Ware
DieHard
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 553
Reg: 10-2005
|
Interesting, Diahutsu Charade with a 1.3lt 4 cylinder can still do 170km/hr which is more than enough to kill you in the event of an accident.
How is having a lower powered car actually going to prevent you from having an accident?? Simple it will not, more to the point you will be driving a car that is a small low powered vehicle as above is not as safe in the event of an accident, it will not handle as well or be as stable at higher speeds ie 100km/hr, have poorer braking so when you do loose control you will impact at a higher speed and more likely to die.
Soarers are a very balanced car with a very stable rear end much more so than many other much lower powered vehicles such as a R31 skyline, VN commodoors ect. I know which cars my younger family members should be driving. |
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 73 Corvette 4sp T-Tops
Posts: 693
Reg: 08-2005
|
Full size muscle, ya gotta throw the Road Runner in there too.
The pony/muscle thing is a bit of a blurred line. After Ford brought out the Mustang, there was the Camaro (well they tried with Corvair first but.. yuk..) and the Firebird. These did have the smaller 6 cyl motors and 302/326/327 sort of small block engines. But at the same time, a Camaro or a Firebird is a big car and they came out with damn big engines and transmissions too. The 396/427 Camaros are definitely muscle cars, as are the 400 and 455 Firebirds and Trans Ams.
Likewise the Dodge Challenger (and the Plymouth Cuda). Yes it came with smaller engines and was aimed at the pony market, but it was almost as big as the Charger, and as well as the Commando 6 and the 318, it came with the 426 Hemi and the 440 Magnum. Definitely a muscle car.
To me, the only real pony car is the Mustang before it got the big block in 68. Pony just says small and cheap, and that's what the first Mustangs were - they were not fast. It kind of continues to be a pony car until the Mustang 2, but they also stepped it up to compete with the new generation of pony/muscle cars - Camaro, Firebird, Challenger and Cuda. That's why Ford owned the cheap sports car "pony" market from late 64 until 67 - they got the jump on everyone else and had the only car in its class, and sold a good million of em in that time. That's a big part of what made it a classic. |
|
Previous
