Soarer Central: HHO, Oxyhydrogen, Brown Gas, Run your Car on Water...

Soarer Central General Soarer Chat HHO, Oxyhydrogen, Brown Gas, Run your Car on Water...

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Earl Digby
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WA
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 11:01 am, by: Earl Digby (Dukezone)

I'm interested to learn what any forum members have found out about the realistic possibility of modifying a [V8] Soarer to run on HHO. Many of you will have seen the hype. If not just google "HHO".

You may have seen the phrase "run your car on water". It's not quite true, as it's actually a Hydroxy supplement . The concept goes a little like this: The system uses electricity from your car's battery to separate water into a gas known as Hydroxy [HHO], which burns effectively and supplies significant energy, whilst the end product is just Water.

There are e-books you can buy [known as "plans"]. It's also been referred to as "brown gas". See eBay for this.

I know, you may be thinking... what the? You will need to come up with space for new tanks, electrolyser, pump etc. It is however, time for Soarer owners to unite, and come up with a plan to get green. I understand if TT owners aren't overly concerned.

Even though I average circa 8L/100kms on a freeway or highway run in my V8; It is as low as 16L/100kms in town. So one day soon I will have to garage my V8 to be saved for weekend cruising only, and get a hybrid for running around in and work [yes, I heard the cry "get a TT"].

Anyway... to get the dialogue moving on the topic, here are some links to stir up the pot:
http://www.drivewithwaterfuel.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Hydrogen-Cell-Plans-Will-Suit-Diesel-LPG-Petrol-Fuels_W0QQitemZ150255909009QQ ihZ005QQcategoryZ47103QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=hydrogen+supplement+car+fuel+hho&btnG=Searc h&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
www.water4gas.com/
www.Water-Fuel-Review.com

Comments?

Cheers from the Duke of Earl

Benjamin Burgess
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 11:18 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Ever heard of the 1st law of thermodynamics. Here is a wiki article for you to study.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

Basically to spell it out, energy can not be create nor destroyed, only converted from one form into another. In order to create HHO it requires energy. Burning HHO releases energy. The process is not 100% efficient, ie. it's not an over unity device.

Mike Triggs
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 12:12 pm, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

Beat me to it, Benjamin.

I am involved in making hydrogen on a daily basis (when at work) since that's what we put in weather balloons. The system where I'm presently working uses electrolysis. We use large amounts of electricity to make that gas- we use about 4000 litres per day. The oxygen is vented (i.e. it's a waste product to us).

Our quarterly station power bill can be $10,000 (depending on whether the radar is onsite or remote- they also use a lot of power).

HHO is another urban myth gaining ground with the rising cost of petrol. Hydrogen power generally has some problems (takes a lot of energy to make, and is hard to store).

If you want to save petrol and retain power, Earl, look at LPG injection.

Benjamin Burgess
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 12:35 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

Yeah hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store. You may see George bush opening up hydrogen fuel stations in the US, saying it's the way of the future, but the reality is the cars cost a fortune to buy, the fuel station has to create hydrogen on demand to be efficient and the car itself has to use that hydrogen quickly otherwise you'll use more in leakage than to move the car.

If you want a solution that has been proven to work, then hybrid your soarer. However the costs to do this would be so high on an existing car it would defeat the original purpose.

If you want to save money on fuel, walk, ride a bike more.

David Vaughan
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 12:41 pm, by: David Vaughan (Davidv)

quote:
The system uses electricity from your car's battery to separate water into a gas known as Hydroxy [HHO], which burns effectively and supplies significant energy

HHO = 2 Hydrogen atoms + 1 Oxygen atom, which is otherwise expressed as H₂O, which is otherwise known as water. Oops.

Earl Digby
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 02:20 pm, by: Earl Digby (Dukezone)

David Vaughan wrote on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 12:41 pm:
HHO = 2 Hydrogen atoms + 1 Oxygen atom, which is otherwise expressed as H2O, which is otherwise known as water. Oops

Really Vaughany? How fascinating... and your point is

...?.... Hydroxy is I believe, more correctly Oxyhydrogen (also known as HHO, Hydroxy or Brown's Gas) is produced by using electrolysis to break the water molecules into their components ( Hydrogen and Oxygen). HHO/Oxyhydrogen/Hydroxy/Hydroxyl is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gases, typically in a 2:1 atomic ratio, the same proportion as water.

Hydroxyl in chemistry stands for a molecule consisting of an oxygen atom and a hydrogen atom connected by a covalent bond. It's how the molecules bond that differs this from H20.

More interesting links:
http://aquygen.blogspot.com/
http://www.squidoo.com/water-power-car-kits-hho
http://www.squidoo.com/oxyhydrogen-car-hydroxy-kits
http://www.amazines.com/hho_gas_related.html
Possible Engine Damage: http://ezinearticles.com/?HHO-Hybrid-Car-Conversion---Possible-Engine-Damage?&id=1203544
http://savecarfuel.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/car-running-on-water-is-water-4-gas-scam/

I'm not discounting this yet, though it bares more research. Bring it on!

Damian Ware
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 02:50 pm, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

It is a great ideal and has huge potential.

The efficiency of burning the 2HO is the issue.

IE how much would you need to carry to drive 100km

As to previous comments about hydrogen being unsafe and hard to store this isn't true.

It is much safer than we are lead to believe...

Most of the hype about hydrogen is BS but what is true is that currently the world focus is petrol and it has become a much more efficient process.

If hydrogen had the same time to develop it would probably be a better technology but at present it isn't.

Aaron Mead
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 03:44 pm, by: Aaron Mead (Aaron)

Not a myth. HHO on demand requires no storage, per se.

But it requires the ability to remap fuel and ignition to be really efficient. Good with carburetted cars.

Its all RIGHT HERE.

Benjamin Burgess
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 04:59 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

Storing hydrogen in liquid form or in metal hydrides maybe safe, but they are not currently usable in domestic motor vehicles. Storing hydrogen as a gas is a no go due to problems I said above.

Also note that not one of the mobile storage targets for hydrogen use has been met on that graph for use in the "FreedomCAR". It's a complete flop at this stage.

Combusting hydrogen is also a no go area for current liquid petrol fuel injectors. If it was to work, you'd need the very latest LPG injectors to have any kind of success or a carby.

Just to put time to develop in prospective here. The very first usable cars on the road were actually electric vehicles. In over 100 years, the speed of development of electric vehicle compared to petrol has been like night and day. If anything should be given a go, it's electric.

Neil Griffiths
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and a Supercharged Manual V8

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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 05:50 pm, by: Neil Griffiths (Aussiesc)

Earl Digby wrote on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 11:01 am:
time for Soarer owners to unite, and come up with a plan to get green.

Go E85 or Injected CNG

I plan to use E85 & LPG as a Dual Fuel System.
( I have a Tunable ECU )

Both have great performance gains.
( I will be setting this up with a Supercharger )

Once I have setup on LPG..And re-fuleing is more available for NG..I will swap the Gas over.

E85 should start becoming more availble.
( I will have to travel 3hrs to get some, but I will be getting it in bulk )

Peter Nitschke
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 07:42 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Try this.

http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

Cihan Aday
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 09:23 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Currently hydrogen cars each cost circa 1 million USD to build.

The hydrogen economy is flawed, was destined to fail. Billions in US government funding for hydrogen fuel projects was a waste of time and money.

IMO the way is smartly produced ethanol (as they are doing in europe and with recent tech improvements in aus) and a solar power infrastructure using the latest thin & flexible solar 'panels'. If Solar becomes cheap above 10-12% conversion efficiency then there is no excuse not to have hybrid ethanol/electric cars and trucks. With a firm government decision and more incentive for development the mentioned is a more plausible approach than anything i've read or heard before. At least if it was enough to allow Australia to run off its own oil supply (i read that ~%40 of our oil we produce locally) then our economies backbone could still run diesel and refined fuels (trucks, planes) whilst the rest of us phase off into ethanol/elec hybrids. As time goes on and hybrid trucks etc come into play, we gradually can export more and more of the oil we produce to help pay off the investments into the new solar infrastructure (barrel price will be higher by then). We could eventually phase off ethanol/petrol/diesel and run straight solar and natural gas alongside what ever we can produce locally.

My bet is we'll see more fuel companies investing into solar panel technology (like BP has). Not sure if thats good for possible improvements in technology though, it seems only independent researchers/manufacturers are actually getting somewhere.

Grant Rowan
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 10:04 pm, by: Grant Rowan (Booster13psi)

Hydrogen fuel cells are showing great promise.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/doe_h2_fuelcell_factsheet.pdf

As with all new technology it will get cheaper.
In the future we could have our own hydrogen refueling station at home that could also provide power for our homes.

http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HomeEnergyStation/

Mike Beck
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Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 11:18 pm, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Peter Nitschke wrote on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 07:42 pm:
Try this.

http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

I saw this in a Magazine not long ago If I remember right.

Seems like a good 'generally' simple Idea that could work in mass situations.

Hell Its not half bad reading the Spec sheet although estimates...

Engine - 6 Cyl.
Power - 75 hp
Max Speed - 96 mph*
Mileage - 106 mpg*
Range - 848 miles (8 gal tank) *
Co2 - 0.141 lbs/mile (at speeds >35mph; zero emissions at <35mph)

Miles Baker
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 12:11 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Earl Digby wrote on Thursday, June 12, 2008 - 02:20 pm:
I'm not discounting this yet, though it bares more research. Bring it on!

No, it doesn't.

Did you read the link posted in the second post? Everything you need to know right there.

Grant Rowan
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 07:17 am, by: Grant Rowan (Booster13psi)

Scientist at the University of Queensland have recently worked out a way to extract hydrogen out of water by using sunlight. However this process would be too slow for use on the fly.
But great for creating and storing hydrogen for latter use. Converting natural gas to hydrogen via a reformer then passed through as hydrogen fuel cell is still a much easier technology to deploy at present.
Burning hydrogen along with petrochemical fuel in a combustion engine is nowhere as efficient as a hydrogen fuel cell.
A combustion engine is 20% efficient at extracting the energy out of fossil fuel. Where as a hydrogen fuel cell is 60% efficient.

Joshua Rao
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 07:33 am, by: Joshua Rao (Soaren1)

In Perth we have 6 Hydrogen fuel cell buses that are great

Callum Finch
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 10:10 am, by: Callum Finch (Sigeneat)

My understanding is technically you aren't magically creating energy from a theory side of things, however the idea of running the system off the car's battery sounds a little thin.

It does deserve more research than what backyard scientists have devoted.

There is plenty of energy around us in chemical form. It's just a matter of harnessing the efficiencies.

Benjamin Burgess
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 10:58 am, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

It's comparable to a turbozet. It sounds great on ebay, but it doesn't work.

Cihan Aday
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 12:15 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Our problem is a dirty power grid, not the lack of an energy transfer medium.

Hydrogen is doing things arse first. We should solve the problem of dirty power grids first, then concentrate on improving technologies that already exist and are already relatively cheap (electric motors, compressed air etc).

Its a ridiculous waste of money and brain power going off on some tangent that is the Hydrogen economy. Sounds like a ploy to keep us in the tradition of 'fillin her up'.

Liquefied hydrogen boils off at about %10-15 percent per day and the conversion from water to liquid H2 loses %40 total energy. In other words, you only get out %60 of what you put in. Fuel cells that make comparable power to modern day engines last %30-40 as long and are still only %35-40 efficient as a system. Thats half as efficient as a battery powered electric car, and even less efficient when you factor in the energy it took to split the hydrogen in the first place. On-top, add the efficiency loss of boil off, and transportation.

What are we left with?

We're left with Hydrogen thats $11-15 per kg and double the dependence on our national power grid.

In the words of Governor Schwarzenegger - "Fantastic."

Cihan Aday
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 12:35 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf

Aaron Mead
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 02:40 pm, by: Aaron Mead (Aaron)

Come on, nothing wrong with the hydrogen economy. Ive seen some net little self powering HHO gen-sets that are on the market already. Add a glass of water, power up your laptop sat phone etc..

The trick is NOT to store the hydrogen, but produce enough of it on demand.

Stan Meyer ring a bell? Invented a water car. Then he was killed. Sorry, died of 'food posioning' lol.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8stApCmxYEM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m8F44mrrlbA

Benjamin Burgess
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 04:22 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

http://improvidentlackwit.com/lackwit/2006/08/22/thermodynamics

Earl Digby
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 04:24 pm, by: Earl Digby (Dukezone)

Guys, some great responses thank you for contributing.

My original post was about the using the HHO concept - Oxyhydrogen [gas] to supplement existing fuel. I believe that this is fairly different to Hydrogen fuel cell [or any fuel cell based concept for that matter]. That is still a way off for passenger vehicles. As Josh Rao said, WA has a few Hydrogen buses getting about. [Btw... You will notice massive steam release from these] But this is different to HHO or 'water fuel' concept discussed in this thread, which was more about the electrolysis method to generate the gas [HHO] rather than a fuel cell.

It's only a matter of time before something comes along that will allow us to use our existing cars with a simple modification to allow drastically improved fuel economy and/or lowered reliance on the black gold [oil]. The perfect invention.

My main thing in context with this HHO concept, was about how it would affect the massively over-engineered and complex machine that is the Soarer. As Aaron Mead points out: "it [HHO fuel supplement]requires the ability to re-map fuel and ignition to be really efficient". I'm going to research much more on this and other global Soarer forums about gas conversion. There are heaps of posts on http://www.soarerworld.com about successful LPG conversions on V8's. There must be some changes to how a Soarer [V8 for example] will adjust as the ECU is set up for ULP. Or will it learn on it's own???

I'm getting way out of my league here so more research and learning for me. Bottom line is I Love the V8 and I get great economy on the open road [duh] but I want my cake and eat it: better economy when I thrash her around town in 2nd gear or 3rd with Over-drive 'off'.
Oh and... to drive like Miss Daisy to increase my fuel economy is NOT an option !}

Aaron Mead
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Friday, June 13, 2008 - 07:40 pm, by: Aaron Mead (Aaron)

^^ Exactly Earl. Im into the same type of system. Theres a tonne of designs about on eBay etc... in the states.

Using electricity to fracture water molecules, is perfectly good stuff. It a matter of finding the correct pulse frequency for that magical Zero point energy required to release ••••••••• of Hydroxygen.

Michael James
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Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:46 am, by: Michael James (Wildwizard)

The hydrogen economy is a myth.

Hydrogen does not exist in abundance on this planet other than in the form of water.

As the first post states you need more energy to get the hydrogen from water than you will get back from burning it or via a fuel cell.

This is in stark contrast to the use of oil which releases more energy than is required to get it into your car as petrol.

The electric car wont take of until the nano capacitor technology reaches mass production stage.

Callum Finch
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Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 05:58 pm, by: Callum Finch (Sigeneat)

You're full of negatives, Michael. =P

I don't know one way or the other, nor do i care, however if using hydrogen and platinum in however which way the science works to produce electricity is inefficient due to the hydrogen extraction methods in the first place, why then are there so many companies trying to push the technology around the world?

There are hundreds of test vehicles on the roads using the stuff...

Cihan Aday
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Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 07:24 pm, by: Cihan Aday (Cihan)

Yeah we're talking about separate things Aaron.
The "hydrogen economy" i'm referring to is conventional (accepted) methods of hydrogen extraction as outlined by Bush in their initiative.

Hydroxy is great, completely different kettle of fish. There are a lot of Yahoo groups out there showing the same designs on eBay for free. They're based on patent information etc. Plenty of videos out there of this stuff working, at 5-10+ times the efficiency of conventional electrolysis. I believe its real, too many amateurs are making HHO for it to be impossible. I guess it defies the 'laws' of thermodynamics.

IMO all its going to take is for someone to replace the LPG stored in an LPG tank with on the demand HHO and run a cheap fumigated setup. Three sets of HHO producing cylinders will make quite a lot of gas even at low current draw. The system can be purged to a set pressure and the engine started soon after. Jetting etc would be adjustable just like an LPG system to get optimal power and economy.

I guess thats why they killed Meyer!

Miles Baker
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Monday, June 16, 2008 - 12:32 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Michael James wrote on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:46 am:
This is in stark contrast to the use of oil which releases more energy than is required to get it into your car as petrol.

That's a big claim. Got anything to substantiate it?

The prime factor in choosing a transport fuel is not its efficiency of storage or production. It is cost, energy density, and ease of storage.

Grant Rowan
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Monday, June 16, 2008 - 06:41 am, by: Grant Rowan (Booster13psi)

Hydrogen may not be that expensive to produce in the future. As I said previously researchers at the University of Queensland have developed a technique of extracting hydrogen using sunlight. In short they have genetically modified algae to produce hydrogen.
Their projections are that a 3m square bio reactor cube would be enough to supply a two person household energy demands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_hydrogen_production

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage5197.html

Matthew Sharpe
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Monday, June 16, 2008 - 07:18 am, by: Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt)

Callum Finch wrote on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 05:58 pm:
I don't know one way or the other, nor do i care, however if using hydrogen and platinum in however which way the science works to produce electricity is inefficient due to the hydrogen extraction methods in the first place, why then are there so many companies trying to push the technology around the world?

Its human nature unfortunately to not want to give up on something when billions and countless man hours has already been spent on it, regardless of how useless and untenable it is. Governments hurling grant money around on popularist technologies without understanding the underlying flaws doesn't help either.