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Mike Triggs
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Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 01:40 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this has been covered in the past, but while searching for information on correct tyre pressures (I've been playing with the "4psi rule", which, for our Rexton, would only work if I drop pressures below recommended, as in what's on the tyre placard).

This "test" was once piece of info I turned up. Doesn't look too scientific to me. I note that Bob Jane refers to information in the public arena without linking to any.
http://www.bobjane.com.au/Services/nitrogen_inflation.asp
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
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Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 02:38 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A fait bit of chat about it here:

http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/285/235898.html

I think your link is anything but conclusive, as the way I read it, they had the Nitrogen pressure much higher which would account for the fuel savings by itself.

Just pump your tyres up more and check them often. Easy!
Brian Timms
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 10:02 am, by:  Brian Timms (Turbo_brian) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apparently for the New R35 GTR that Nissan has released, they are recommending Nitrogen fill with their tires because the inpurity of the other gases makes the tire unstable when the car gets to it's peaks and abilities.

Having said that, you would not get to drive such a car at it's peaks and abilities on any public road in the world.

There is no doubt it makes a difference to the way the air in the tire expands, to the way it holds pressure, etc but you need to ask yourself if these differences reflect any real life benifit for the every-day drive car.

B.
Steven Roduner
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 03:31 pm, by:  Steven Roduner (Steve89) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to add a little bit of chemistry to the situation. At 25 degrees C, the specific heat capacity of Nitrogen is 1.040 and the specific heat capacity of Air is 1.005. Basically this means that the nitrogen can take in more energy before the temperature of it is raised.
In simple terms, you can flog the tires more with less of a raise in temperature when filled with nitrogen, which in turn means the tires don’t expand as much.
David Vaughan
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 04:51 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just adding an innocent query to the situation, how does storing 3% more thermal energy make something cooler, or do you only ever drive fast around your block first thing in the morning?
Dave Hart
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 05:41 pm, by:  Dave Hart (Davyboy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I presume that with equal use, the tyre with N2 would stay at a more constant pressure than one with air ie you could drive faster before the heat generated would increase the pressure in the tyre. That being so it means the tyre profile would remain more constant.
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 06:31 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Considering that the biggest problem is under inflation apparently, then perhaps there is an argument that air is better as it expands more.
Miles Baker
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 06:49 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not that it even matters, but the specific heat capacity is a measure of energy per gram. "Air" is denser than nitrogen. So the heat capacity of 1cc of each (at standard conditions) is:

Nitrogen 1.04 * 1.251 = 1.301
Air 1.005 * 1.292 = 1.298

The most piddling difference ever. None of it even matters, it's all marketing bull and there's no science to back it up. Anyone want to buy a bridge? How about a god? Some climate change?
David Vaughan
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 07:26 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The gods can buy adherents like I buy properties in Monopoly (the more you buy, the more you win). Meanwhile, I'll sell you the bridge and buy climate change, Miles :-). Now, all we have to do is agree a price

Better still, I will trade you a gram of nitrogen for a gram of oxygen at $1 each based on whatever we can get out of air.
Oooh, at last I'm gonna get rich

Damn! Bob Jane thought of it first...
David Vaughan
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Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 07:35 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I presume that with equal use, the tyre with N2 would stay at a more constant pressure than one with air ie you could drive faster before the heat generated would increase the pressure in the tyre. That being so it means the tyre profile would remain more constant.


Yes. You should make it out of your driveway. I hope you can win that one :-)
Matthew Sharpe
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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:13 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup, its as scientifically significant as the carbon trading system - total BS and yet people are still making a fortune out of it.
Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 06:54 pm, by:  Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:13 am:

Yup, its as scientifically significant as the carbon trading system - total BS and yet people are still making a fortune out of it.




There is slightly more scientific hocus-pocus with the climate change "debate" compared to Bob Jane's "scientific test" (which was anything but). Which is perhaps why more people are taken in by the former compared to the latter.

As a matter of interest, my 4psi rule is working better, with 32-33psi cold looking the goods. The mistake I made was in thinking that a 37km drive in a 110km/hr zone was enough to get the tyres up to normal temperature. Wrong. It took a 60km drive yesterday in daylight, and the other thing you need to do is check the pressures immediately you stop, as they cool quickly, and conversely, not have the tyres in the sun when checked "cold" as they absorb a lot of heat.

Any higher than 32-33psi and the ride is awful, too.
Brian Timms
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Friday, August 15, 2008 - 07:14 pm, by:  Brian Timms (Turbo_brian) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 06:49 pm:

Nitrogen 1.04 * 1.251 = 1.301
Air 1.005 * 1.292 = 1.298

The most piddling difference ever. None of it even matters, it's all marketing bull and there's no science to back it up. Anyone want to buy a bridge? How about a god? Some climate change?




Air is something like 75% Nitrogen anyway, so your only adding a potential difference of 25%, the difference is miniscule, but there IS a sight difference.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, the difference is enough that Nissan thought it a requirement in their new GTR for it's optimal performance, but for simple road use, you wont push ANY car hard enough to get any feeling or performance benifit from street tires, for use on public roads, or even minor track days, you wont get a benifit, but for full track spec seriously high performance cars with decent performance tires, there might be a small benifit (and any benifit on a track is worth time, which manes it worth the use).

B.
Ben Kelly
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Friday, August 15, 2008 - 07:40 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian, you're right but i think its 78% or so. You know I've heard of the benefits of dihydrogen monoxide as a component of the cooling system...although it can be a biohazard (google dihydrogen monoxide for more info).
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
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Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 01:04 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Brian Timms wrote on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 07:14 pm:

Nissan thought it a requirement in their new GTR for it's optimal performance


Could just be a marketing ploy too. Or a way to get out of warranty! :-)
Brian Timms
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Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 09:25 pm, by:  Brian Timms (Turbo_brian) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Nitschke wrote on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 01:04 am:

Could just be a marketing ploy too. Or a way to get out of warranty!




I have had the pleasure of being driven in one of these new things, and it's not a ploy, but nitrogen in tires wont help on the street.

B.
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 10:58 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys do know why race teams traditionally use nitrogen don't you?
David Vaughan
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:35 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because if they used nitrous oxide, they might forget to put the wheels on?
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:45 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope. Convenience. They needed a cheap supply of cool, clean, dry air to run air tools from. Compressors were just one more thing to break down, and were big and heavy. They also needed lots of power in the old days, which tracks didn't have. Bottled nitrogen was about the cheapest inert gas you could get, so tracks would truck a load of bottles in. All the teams needed to carry was a regulator, and they had air which was reliable, predictable, and wouldn't rust out their tools. So this is what they'd fill their tyres with too...
Callum Finch
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:00 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hahah good one, Miles. =P
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:13 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's true!
David Vaughan
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:22 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So's mine

as well as Miles'
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:48 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, they can also use much higher pressures to run the tools faster/higher torque.
Callum Finch
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Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:07 am, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to wish to jump in to the big pool party regarding the nitrogen in tyres thing, however on the race track where you dont want the tyres to warp shape mid corner it does have a use.

I cant speak for the specific molecule make ups which relate to how often you need to refill your road car, and imo air works just as good as any.

The next time you take your race car out for some touring car racing (like a proper race car!!!) try sum! ;)

nb. This isn't my opinion, nor do i know it to be a 100% fact, its simply what i have read in books and seen on the telly in doco form regarding the use of nitrogen gas in tyres.
Miles Baker
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Monday, August 18, 2008 - 06:52 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I used to do track days on my bike, the Dunlop guy at the track used compressed air in the racers' tyres. What exactly is supposed to be in air that warps tyres? Must be nasty stuff, that air. I get all mine trucked in from the French Alps instead of breathing this local filth.
David Vaughan
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Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:42 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nasty things, those telly docos.

I read something in a book once. It said that Paganino da Monaco carried off the wife of Ricciardo di Chinzica. After the latter died, Paganino and Ms di Chinzica married, but that is not 100% fact.
Callum, old fruit, by your variously esteemable or frivolous standards, that sounded like a comment after you had had a few . Was "I have to wish to jump in ... however" meant to be "I have no wish to jump in ... however"?


Craig Webber
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Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:07 pm, by:  Craig Webber (Soarr) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi there Dav
You just love these nitrogen threads.
David Vaughan
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Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:23 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have me there, Craig. It is one of those I enjoy but I suspect Miles' post count on these exceeds my own :-)

I know a bit about suspensions, tyres, electrics and the perils of magic potions but I never met a god I liked. I think those are the places where you will find most of my posts.

Now I will have to retire on the grounds of excessive predictability
Callum Finch
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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:17 am, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:42 pm:

Callum, old fruit, by your variously esteemable or frivolous standards, that sounded like a comment after you had had a few .



Haha likely the oposite; by the timestamp i think it may have been 6am when i wrote that comment! =P (Early morns do crazy things to ya in the Kimberly)
Miles Baker
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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:37 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 01:35 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The new Corvette ZR1 has just broken the GTR's Nurburgring time (and they are saying they have more time they can shave).

ZR1's tyres do not use nitrogen

Oh, and it gets better fuel economy.
Craig Webber
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Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:52 pm, by:  Craig Webber (Soarr) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The yanks wouldn't have heard of nitrogen.
The land of ford's and chev ,come on give me a break.High tech is not there forte.
Miles Baker
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Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 10:52 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pff whatever. I believe "fastest production car around the ring" speaks for itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times
Neil Griffiths
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Monday, August 25, 2008 - 05:45 am, by:  Neil Griffiths (Aussiesc) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Craig Webber wrote on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:52 pm:

The land of ford's and chev




And MOPAR :-)


Craig Webber wrote on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:52 pm:

High tech is not there forte.




I dunno Craig !
Cadillac had Auto Headlights ( Dimming Included ) way back in the late 50's early 60's.
Electric Seats.
Auto closing boots.
Matthew Sharpe
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Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:15 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supercars at the Nürburgring aside (which is, lets face it, a track with a lot of long, fast straights perfect for a car with great straight line performance - not that I'm saying the 'vette can't handle too) as a generalisation, Americans make big, heavy cars with primitive suspension and very small brakes. Doesn't mean thats all they can make, just means thats what they like to make. And they do innovate, no question about it - they research and innovate like hell - but they don't tend to bother to actually put their innovations into your bog standard family car until everyone else has forced them into it.
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Monday, August 25, 2008 - 05:05 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let us not get carried away here. The Corvette is, and has been since at least the 80s on my rough knowledge, a car with excellent suspension design, not primitive. Yes, it is heavy and not top of the handling class but it is no over-powered tank.
Miles Baker
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Monday, August 25, 2008 - 06:19 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Matthew how many American cars have you owned?

Fastest ever around the ring means, yes, it is top handling. It has less power than many of the cars it has beaten - Japanese and European. What a silly comment. How on earth could that be true?

As someone who has pulled Vette suspension apart, I can tell you it has not been considered primitive since the early 60s. Full frame, front and rear double wishbone with IRS, LSD and 4 pots all round standard equipment since at least 68. Take a peak at the record books for Le Mans, where Vettes and Vipers have been tossing around the trophy for years. I suppose the Ford GT40 and the Shelby cars are forgotten?

So they build some sedans that aren't race inspired? Big deal, they build the full gamut. Many of their family cars cost less than half what a family car here costs. They build for the sector of the market that doesn't want to pay for performance. Driven an 80s Camry, Bluebird, Commodore or Falcon recently? Yeah, those Brock Commodore things sure are great handling cars... pff don't make me gag.
Matthew Sharpe
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Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 01:47 pm, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try reading my post again Miles, I said pretty clearly "Doesn't mean thats all they can make" - as you say there are plenty of very cool exceptions - but take pretty much any mid sized Japanese or European family car and put it up against any American car in the same class, the Euro/Jap will out handle and out brake the US car.

I've never owned an American car as I've never been able to afford one of the "exceptions" - and now I'm a family car man, they just don't make anything that I'd consider to be a good family car at all. My dad owned a few, most notibly a '57 Chev and a Customline, but I'm not talking about classic cars here.

Totally agree about Aussie cars of the 80's and even through to the late '90's
Miles Baker
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Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:49 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I still disagree. You are talking about different classes. The American cars you are talking about have a clear price difference to the Jap/Euro cars you are talking about.

Why do you want a family car that brakes and handles like a race car anyway? I'd prefer a car that does what I need in a family car, with enough change to ALSO buy a sports coupe.

Keep in mind a brand new V8 Mustang costs about 25 grand US. Then you have about a million options for suspension and brakes. A base model 3 series STARTS at $33k. I don't know about you but I've driven those and they handle like a bucket of and have no power or brakes. The rest of the European fare is about the same. Audi A4 starts at $33k with the *huge* 2.0L 211hp 4 cylinder. Driven a Camry lately? Not exactly a compelling drive either.

A similarly spec'd Chev Malibu is between 5 and 10 grand cheaper. The Impala SS with a 5.3L V8 is still like 5k cheaper than *the cheapest* BMW or Audi. Bigger engine, wheels, brakes, more sophisticated electronic brake control too.

Want to play in the M3/RS4 class? Try a Cadillac CTSV. Currently destroying the competition on the race track. 550hp vs the Europeans' 400hp. 380mm brakes all round with 6 pots on the front. Same price as an M3 or RS4. AND it can run on regular instead of the M3, which with 12:1 compression will ping on even slightly dirty optimax.

Bottom line, you don't have much experience with the vast array of cars the US makes, and you are going off the BS that guys like Clarkson dribble because they love to boost the UK car industry. It's understandable, but just not true. Then you have decided to take that and apply it to the new Corvette, which is owning all others on THE race track for testing supercars.. and you claim it can't handle and just does straight line.

Sure, lots of the older cars are overpowered and heavy with questionable handling. But in their era, anything foreign even close to their price point was TOTAL crap. Tin cans with no handling OR straight line performance.
Maurice Diggler
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Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 01:03 am, by:  Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corvette ZR1 has 640hp and the new GTR has 450hp, with the number of long straights on the ring it's no doubt the ZR1 beat it, if Nissan ever release a V-Spec model with more power and more race ready suspension... GM are in for some serious trouble.
Matthew Sharpe
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Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:21 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:49 pm:

and you claim it can't handle and just does straight line.




...


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:15 am:

not that I'm saying the 'vette can't handle too)




I give up.
Miles Baker
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Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:44 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The gtr has 480 not 450. They are running a modified vspec with 550hp and get about 7:25. Unofficial though because it's not stock. The ZR1 still has a few seconds left in it too.
Maurice Diggler
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Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:50 am, by:  Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I just wiki'd both cars and used that info, I personally couldn't care which car is faster but I think props to Nissan for having less power and more weight and keeping their head above water.
Matthew Sharpe
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Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 06:18 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah well I'll never own either unless I win lotto.
Maurice Diggler
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Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 10:22 am, by:  Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In which case you'd get both :-)

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