Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:05 am, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
Hi guys. Grateful for any help anyone could give on this one please.
Until a few weeks ago the car was running as normal. One morning I got some strange noises and an error13 on startup. Turned out the cam belt had slipped. Changed the belt.
After this the car started but ran very rich. Also, it never went into closed loop mode. Reading up on closed loop operation and ECUs, I decided to try changing the O2 sensor. This I did, only to find that the car won’t start at all. Put the old O2 sensor back but it still won’t start.
The engine turns but won’t fire. The Emanage tells me that it is spinning at 200-300 rpm. Old Emanage logs show that rpm would jump from 0 to 1,200 on startup in less that a second.
Tried a new battery. No difference.
Assuming that the cam belt was fitted OK (local ex-Toyota mechanic helped with it), I can only see the following factors which may be relevant:
The car was out of action for about two weeks during the coldest period we have had here for a log time. There was ice on the inside of the windscreen as well as snow on the outside.
Had a slight leak from the water pump (my fault) and this dripped on to the alternator. Fixed it and the car ran for about a week afterwards before current problem.
I’m guessing that changing the O2 sensor itself didn’t cause this problem (yes, I reset the ECU at same time) so either I did something stupid at the time or it’s related to the cam belt change - but I don't see why the car would run (albeit rich) for a couple of weeks before refusing to start if that were the case.
There isn’t much on the net about low crank speeds on startup. I did try loosening the serpentine belt to check that ancillaries and pulleys were OK. They seem fine.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 06:10 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
That did cross my mind and may have had something to do with it running rich after the belt was changed, but I can't see that it would explain that it ran for a couple of weeks after the belt change then stopped, would it?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 06:25 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
When I had the mechanic round I did ask whether the tensioner looked ok and he said it did. The reason that I don't think it is a belt problem is that the ECU is reporting no errors. Doing a diagnostic shows the blink-blink OK signal. I can see how the belt slipping again could explain these problems but why would I get no error 13 from the ECU as I did when the belt originally slipped?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 07:38 pm, by: Aaron Casey(Blownminiturbo)
i always replace tensioners and idlers when i do a timing belt... especially if it has skipped a tooth!!!! dont trust someone checking it out he probably just checked that it pushed in hard and held some pressure. it may have lost some spring/push over the years and just not holding enough to keep it from slipping. take off your timing cover and then set your crank to top dead centre... crank is able to rotate twice to get it sometimes as crank turns faster.. but double check the mark at the bottom is correct and the top marks are perfect in line with the marks on the metal timing backing (put white out marks on it will help them stand out to line up easier) if they are correct then that isnt your problem. check on your emanage if you are getting crank and cam pulse (if you can check that i havent got mine installed yet lol) another problem could be that your car has been tuned with emanage when the std ecu already had its values so resetting the ecu might have put the figures out of whack causing it to run extremely rich and not start... check your plugs they could be fouled if it ran extremely rich.. you could also make sure you have spark by taking a coil pack out and putting another plug on it and ark it out to the motor and crank it. is your fuel pump working??
many things to check but try and rule out things till you can figure out which part of the process is causing it not to work...
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 07:53 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
I can re-check the timing easily enough – and this time I think I can do it without removing the radiator! I’m still suspicious about why the ECU wouldn’t throw an error 13 if it was a timing issue though. But I’ll check it.
Emanage (blue) doesn’t show that much information unfortunately. No idea if the EMU does.
I’ve reset the ECU many times since I mapped the Emanage, without any problems.
The plugs are indeed showing signs of richness. I took them all out (they were wet with fuel) and dried and cleaned them. No sigh of erosion or deposits on the electrodes so I put the same plugs back in. Engine still didn’t fire.
Fuel pump audibly primes. It’s a Walbro so you can hear it. I haven’t investigated this any further.
Can you explain 'ark it out to the motor' please?
I did think that the sub-zero temps may be a factor but the weather has warmed up since then.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 11:19 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
This is what the Emanage says is going on in the current situation and the last time I took a log.
Two things strike me - the low crank speed and that fact that the AFR meter (2nd Airflow input) seems to be picking up vapour even before I try to start the engine.
Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:25 pm, by: Aaron Casey(Blownminiturbo)
ok unbolt a coilpack and insert a spark plug into the bottom while connected but not running lol then sit the end of the spark plug on a metal peice of the motor and when you crank the enginethe spark plug should fire.. just to check you are getting spark. im not very familiar with emanages yet ou might have to have a talk with cihan he is the guru with these he might be able to explain what it is doing
Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:20 pm, by: Christian Molenda(Christof)
try a new set of plugs aswell.. It it runs really rough as you said it could have fouled those up, thus not letting it start again. I have been down this road before when my car was in getting painted. The shop would start it move it a few meters then turn it off.. eventually it fowled the plugs, but it was running rough before that happened. I got there to pick the car up only to find it wouldnt start.
Friday, January 16, 2009 - 06:40 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
Thanks. I'll be checking the timing again this weekend and I'll get some new plugs as well. I'll also dry the fuel out of the engine. Still worried about the low crank speed reading though, can't think what could be causing that.
Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:27 pm, by: Simon Roberts(Simonr)
They are pretty inaccessible so that wouldn't be quick. They were working OK before the belt change and I'm not seeing an error 13 any more. Why do you think that those sensors should be checked?
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