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James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

Posts: 152
Reg: 03-2009

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:26 am, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey guys as the title say's I am chasing 200RWKW but I am not too keen on forced induction.

As I already have a full exhaust and BFI at the moment I should be currently looking at 150RWKW.

I still want to keep it my daily driver but want to take it to the race track's or strip and see some decent times.

My idea's to achieving this is to add some after market cam shaft's and then do a good dyno tune, here is the link to what sort of cam's I am thinking of:
http://www.camshaftshop.co.nz/index.php/vmchk/1UZ-FE-V8/View-all-products.html
Probably the 207-c type. If I can get my mitt's on some stock 2nd hand shafts I will send those to them and get them reground to some thing like that and it will work out heaps cheaper.
Also who does'nt like the sound of a lumpy V8 these day's??? (mmm nice, in a Borat accent)

Would I need to upgrade the injectors and fuel rail or would it be a good idea to do that while I am going to all this trouble?

Also would my standard gear box still hold up to this? I would ultimatly love to put a T56 in but we all know how much that will cost and how long it would take so it kind of gets the back seat for now.

I am just waiting on my mate for some 18 inch wheels so I can fit my brake upgrades in the next 2 or so weeks time and start hitting the track this summer and get used to the track and how my car will handle.

I can get a bit fussy when it comes to my car as it is my baby so I want to do things once and do them right but preferably in stages because I don't want my car off the road for long periods of time since it is still my daily driver.

Any recommendations people?
Andrew Duaso
TryHard
Victoria
V8

Posts: 369
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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:52 am, by:  Andrew Duaso (Andrewd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

happy gas

easiest way
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

Posts: 4770
Reg: 10-2005

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:18 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know a guy who can cut custom cams for you to any profile if thats of any help. He's also a bit of a N/A performance guru, though not a 1UZ specialist. Let me know if you want his contact details.
James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

Posts: 153
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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:37 am, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Andrew Duaso wrote on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:52 am:

happy gas

easiest way




Obviously nitrous wont be very practical as I will be too expensive.


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:18 am:

I know a guy who can cut custom cams for you to any profile if that's of any help. He's also a bit of a N/A performance guru, though not a 1UZ specialist. Let me know if you want his contact details.




Where, who, when etc please Matt. I have just sent a message to Kelford asking them what type of cam's the recommend. I am currently at work and Hotmail is blocked by the server so I have to wait until i get home to see their reply.
Mark Tierney
TryHard
NSW
Soarer GTT, Celsior, Ducati

Posts: 326
Reg: 09-2005

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:32 am, by:  Mark Tierney (Mark_t) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

why no forced induction? This is the easiest way for more neddies. These engines are pretty hard to kill...six bolt mains & all.
Just dropping in camshafts isn't going to get you there. A forced induction package will & in the big picture of things, wont cost that much more.
There's been one floating around for sale on this forum and it can still be your daily, just much more fun to drive
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:42 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what you can do, AND i am 95% you will still not make 200rwkw ...

Camshafts , Replace upper and lower intake with something custom and even 8 individual throttle bodies , Aftermarket ECU + fuel pump . Extractors + full exhaust inc h or x pipe + High flow cats or none at all ( could be a big fine for this ) , You could remove the heads and get them ported .

Put all this together with a manual gearbox and you will struggle to break 190rwkw ..

Now dont forget, Dyno's are only tuning tools and each dyno reads differently . I can show you a printout of my car making 368rwkw,lol ... But it only makes 260rwkw ( backed up by calcs from quarter mile times too ) .

Basically you want to be able to make peak power somewhere in the high 6000's preferably in the low 7000rpm region to attain enough airflow to make the 200rwkw mark .

But a Supercharger is a much better option . Not only will a 200rwkw NA engine lose down low torque, its peak torque window will be narrower . A Supercharger @ 6psi on stock injectors with a basic ecu upgrade will not only make 200rwkw but it will have SO Much more torque than the NA build, you wouldnt even bother ...

By the time you get Cams + fitment , Port the heads, Custom plenum ( upper and lower ) , Muck about with exhaust types to attain peak power .

You can buy a supercharger kit on here for $3k . Bolt it on with a basic exhaust upgrade . Throw in a basic ECU and tune it and you have reached your goal with alot more Torque which is what gives you that push in the seat .

Not that expensive really.
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
4.0GT UZZ30

Posts: 3829
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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:47 am, by:  Mike Beck (Gold_40gt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

:-) Sounds like your on the right track James.

But if you want 200rwkw+ just supercharge it!

Cams are expensive and don't offer that much of a gain per dollar like... 5-10rwkw... for ~ 1000-1500.

Of course supercharging is a 5-8k job though, Personally I would go down that route if I had the extra funds, but I'm more interested in buying a Celsior to use daily, mainly because I would prefer to have a stock somewhat uninteresting vehicle that is practical... I must say I'm not so keen on always using my Soarer with the dollars I'm throwing into it, I would be devastated if It got stolen or written off, regardless of having insurance, it's not the point. Too much sentimental value already!

Andrew Duaso
TryHard
Victoria
V8

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 10:37 am, by:  Andrew Duaso (Andrewd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude 2nd hand nitrous kit all up $600 and your laughing.

If you can make more power than the bottle will for under 1k tell me how!!!

Sure not permanent. But I'd rather be on the bottle for the bragging rights at the track and be 100% stock for the daily dutys.

N/A these cars don't make impressive numbers on paper, even with cams heads and itb's a stockie with a 100shot will kill it. And done correctly and not being too greedy the driveline wil handle it for years to come.
Christian Somerville
TryHard
South Australia
UZZ31 V8 LTD

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:22 am, by:  Christian Somerville (Csomers) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't agree with the nitrous, don't rate nitrous on the street, I know where James is coming from.
He just wants to get the most out of the engine without force induction and that is the same route I would like to take, the only thing is that this is an expensive job.
The main reason being this engine is designed and made to be bulletproof and that's why so much money was poured into it with development and research.

The factory engine has really good quality parts: forged pistons and crankshaft and I think even the cams are forged.
Crankshaft and con-rods are steel, the pistons are metallic-alloy and 6 bolt main bearings.
This is probably why not much power is available for small amounts of money.

For value for money though the supercharger would be the best way
Paul Knox
Tinkerer
QLD
uzz31's manual and auto

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:30 am, by:  Paul Knox (Surreal) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andrew can only use a bottle in a straight line. Whats the point of doing a track day ??

James have a look at v-eight.com if you want to go the N/A way.
Lots of money will be needed to achieve your goal. I'm all for it, but the S/C is obviously the cheapest and easiest way, with it's own benefits.
I'm a long time Motorcycle racer and used to a engine singing around 9-10k and having to keep it there to get the bike working, I think most people on here will not understand that.
If you want to do it go for it, don't listen to all the knockers, I also will be doing this later down the track, I'm planning the build now.
Only thing is it will be a pig as a daily driver, Whatever you gain up top you will lose on the bottom end. No more cruising at 60km's in top gear, fuel economy will be non existant.
200rwkw N/a is a blast for a track car, but daily driver it won't be fun.
Andrew Duaso
TryHard
Victoria
V8

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:06 pm, by:  Andrew Duaso (Andrewd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man id rather run a twin cam Rolla at a track day than an auto soarer. My idea of nos is for 1/4 runs only and not track or street. But let's face it there is no cheaper way to make a V8 soarer hurry up in acceleration. I've spent 5k on an already tough 4.3L engine before and the gains weren't worth the coin. For what you spend making the V8 into this car for trackdays etc... I'd just buy a stock TT strip it and run it on semis and without engine mods it'd spank a v8
James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:07 pm, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm ok thank's guys for your input. So 200KW would be too high for N/A from what I am getting from every one. I would go forced but from looking at availability of materials it is going to be very expensive and all I was asking really was if 200KW was achievable.

After giving it some thought Andrew you do have a point but I am just not too sure if it would last long enough for a track day and how much it would cost each time I fill up and trying to find a system that would work.

Daniel, just future reference over here in NZ we don't have to have cat's in our exhausts. Thank's though for your knowledge.

Ok then let me re-phrase my question... What would I probably see with a cam and ecu tune then roughly?

Mike to be honest if and when I become the family man type then I would get another car and yes a celsior most likely, and the soarer would not be needed, then I would turn it into a track car but that is only if and when the time comes.... I still want to enjoy my car first.
Mark Tierney
TryHard
NSW
Soarer GTT, Celsior, Ducati

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:17 pm, by:  Mark Tierney (Mark_t) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Johnson wrote on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:07 pm:

Ok then let me re-phrase my question... What would I probably see with a cam and ecu tune then roughly?




.....about a 3 grand bill with fitting & tuning for maybe a 30hp ATW gain. Not worth it.

Best off you chat to a few of the guys running superchargers. It will really be the best option for what you are trying to achieve & wont make a nasty daily out of the car. Also means you can have a supercharger badge....a bit o street cred!

as far as the family man stuff, its better to have a Soarer & a Celsior . Best of both worlds
Aiden Cheese
Tinkerer
QLD
Soarer jzz30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:55 pm, by:  Aiden Cheese (Chillpen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A long time ago, my friend got a $15000 car loan and used it to rebuild his honda integra.

Adjustable cam gears, extractors, lumpy cams, Bigger bore, polished and ported head and block, light weight flywheel, custom crank made to "cut through the oil" (or something), ram air intake (hole in the frontbar a foot wide and 6" high piped down into the panel filter housed in custom airbox for flow then to the throttle body), more valve lift and harder springs and rebuilt head good for 12000RPM with the rev limiter set to 10000.

Gains were significant, but he was crushed. For the same money he easily would have got double the performance with a turbo.

You can only make some things so efficient, but at the end of the day the engine is only going to naturally pull in so much air, the rest you have to force in.
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 02:14 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Easiest and best way - buy the supercharger kit i have for sale. Pumping the guts out cams and compression with NA can be much more costly.
Paul Knox
Tinkerer
QLD
uzz31's manual and auto

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:08 pm, by:  Paul Knox (Surreal) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah but every guy I know that has a turbo has "troubles" with their car.

Alot of guys like the bulletproof & reliability aspect of the V8.

I also find the phssssssttt vwooootttt tododoododoood of a Turbo Highly annoying.

I believe without intercooling a S/C could be just as temperamental.

Also I believe an auto V8 would not be an ideal pick for a track car, but drop a 1uzfe pumping out 200rwkw+ thats runs to 9000rpm into something nice and light and stiff, would be a hoot.
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:45 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well the reality is that the 1UZ is a 4000cc engine, and 100hp/l is regularly attained by production engines from all era's of technology. There's nothing special about the 1UZ in this respect. 200rwkw is still well under the 100hp/l mark.

Im currently designing an LPG NA 1UZ with Cameron Laufer, there's no reason why you can't take some pointers from the build i have planned without the finer changes. Even the basics will satisfy your goals, and more.

From my testing the biggest limitation is the intake runners / throttle body and the standard camshafts. Address these and the power is there. The standard intake manifold is terrible for high RPM harmonics. Much too long among other things. Standard throttle body is small, it'll only just support 350hp through an unopened motor. The standard camshafts are absolutely tiny with regards to mid-lift duration and effective valve open area, they completely undermine the engine's potential.

The good thing is these restrictions are easily addressed. I don't like any off the shelf camshafts or re-grinds, personally. Nor do i like any 'bolt-on' individual throttle body setups that utilize the standard lower runners. They aren't any good by themselves, or as a package IMO. If they were, 200rwkw would have come and gone just like it did for the humble 1JZ.

Here's an example of an unopened 1UZ, with an Emanage ultimate running no airflow meter. The airflow meter was replaced with a 3 inch pipe for a 4rwkw peak gain and up to 7rwkw by 7,000rpm. It basically a 1UZ with extractors + exhaust, and %5 of the intake side 'restriction' fixed.


Upload


The easiest step from here would be a set of custom billet camshafts to put the end figure over 200rwkw retaining the standard intake / runners / throttle body setup. The rev limit would be bumped up by about 10%, which would afford running a higher diff ratio to increase tractive effort by the same margin.

In my opinion a built NA 1UZ with T56 6 speed is a phenomenal setup. For that very reason i'm putting a lot of time and money into building one myself.
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:58 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On another note, im tuning the Etuner 600hp S1 single turbo kit powered development car tomorrow morning. These will be on the market for about $5600 with a new garrett dual ball bearing GT35R, full intake / intercooler kit, dump pipe and manifold setup etc. You'll need management, and fuel system to boot.


Upload
James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:14 pm, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cihan

So that was achieved on 98 octane petrol?

This seems to be getting a little out of hand here. People lets forget 200KW if it is not achievable. I would like to go N/A because as everyone here like sheep go for a super charger. Yes it would be less expensive but have any of you seen, let alone herd of a N/A Lexus V8 making that sort of power?

Cihan, that dyno chart, if that engine did have some custom or after-market cam shaft's would you say it would be capable of 200KW or there about's?
Andrew Duaso
TryHard
Victoria
V8

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:52 pm, by:  Andrew Duaso (Andrewd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fark the 200rwkw crap thing

how much to install that turbo setup

and do you take Visa LOL
Cihan Aday
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etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:41 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

James, there's a 310rwkw NA 1UZ in NSW owned by Ed, v-eight.com. So yes its been done. Many improvements can be made to that setup IMO, which would put it closer to 400rkw or 150hp/l. There are also NA boat motor 1UZ's making 500hp, which would be well over 300rwkw through a T56.

Niks UZZ31 was running 98RON pump fuel to produce that power output. With the camshaft i have in mind, 200rwkw is a walk in the park from this setup. The next restriction is the throttle body, especially when the cams go in.

If you're starting from scratch my suggestion would be to go for a standalone ECU, custom high lift / aggressive ramp cams with a bump in duration to suit any proposed headwork / intake manifold changes that will alter significant flow and harmonics as well as the effective operating rev range. The bigger cam will also afford a bump in compression, can be done by modifying the heads or alternatively, changing pistons.

If you want to run LPG, a single (or two) 500cfm gas research throttle body, twin B2 converters and a custom short runner intake manifold will take you over 8000rpm with the right head and camshaft package. To make 500hp you need 250cfm on the intake side of things and good low lift flow without opening up the intake port cross sectional diameter. This is no problem, been done before. I've seen flow sheets pushing 275cfm from these heads at usable lift with good low lift flow.

LPG in 50/50 butane/propane mix will take 14:1 compression, worth about 40hp over 10:1 in an engine of this caliber. EGT's are also lower than petrol with LPG at that static compression ratio, so longevity is also improved.

Take a moment to digest.
Cihan Aday
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etuner.com.au
JZZ30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:45 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andrew, any reputable workshop can install it. I have a guy in Campbelfield that will be doing most of the installations. Id estimate the total labor cost to be worth about $950, with the required battery - to - boot relocation.

I take DD, EFTPOS or cash on install
Andrew Duaso
TryHard
Victoria
V8

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:09 pm, by:  Andrew Duaso (Andrewd) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



whooooo off to the bank for a 3rd mortgage...

ok well i would be but im trying to get my bike into the 11's (yeah i know slow for a bike, but fast for a titanic of a bike)

damn.... me wants....


whats your projections for HP and tq on a typical setup?
Cihan Aday
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JZZ30

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:30 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

500hp not uncommon. Depends how far you take it, streetable 270-280rwkw is what i'd be aiming for keeping cost / performance down.

Using say a Holset HX35 or HX40 style turbo can wipe 1000 off from the total kit price. The GT35R alone comes to 1600-1700, picking up something cheaper makes it more cost effective with the same scope for peak power figures. The kit includes everything else. There's very little margin in this kit, more of a proof of concept thing. Hand made with quality parts and equipment in limited number. If i can sell the first 10 kits, there will be another 10 produced and so on.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
V8 Limited

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Monday, October 12, 2009 - 08:13 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh dear..me wants!
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 07:08 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


James Johnson wrote on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:37 am:

Where, who, when etc please Matt. I have just sent a message to Kelford asking them what type of cam's the recommend. I am currently at work and Hotmail is blocked by the server so I have to wait until i get home to see their reply.




His name is Henry Van Vugt, and the company is Auckland Cams. 09-833 5478, he's in West Auckland - Massey. He rebuilt an engine for me about ten years ago and did such an awesome job. My wife is doing his website for him at the moment. Tell him Matt Sharpe gave him your number :-)
James Johnson
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Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:30 am, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sweet thanks Matt.

Cihan what is the exact details for that type of ECU or what would you recommend?
Ali Saeed
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WA
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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:50 am, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cihan is using emanage ultimate i believe?
Cihan Aday
Moderator
etuner.com.au
JZZ30

Posts: 3036
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 06:06 pm, by:  Cihan Aday (Cihan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We're out of fuel pump, and there's a long way to go.

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James; i would recommend a haltech platinum series ECU, or Emanage Ultimate depending on your budget. The Ultimate installed and tuned is about $1500 cheaper than a Haltech. Wolf has plugin available, total would come to $1000-1100 cheaper than the Wolf.

So far we're getting excellent results with the turbo kit, removing the MAF sensor and running a 1JZ/2JZ MAP sensor for boost referencing. Overall drivability is as good as either of those standalones for a fraction of the total cost.

Ali, yes mate both the NA 1UZ above and the S1 turbo kit powered UZZ31 utilise an emanage ultimate with the airflow meter replaced with a MAP sensor.
Blake Gloyn
DieHard
manawatu
soarer JZZ30 TT

Posts: 523
Reg: 02-2006

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Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:00 pm, by:  Blake Gloyn (Blakenz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yay, cihan's back.... like the pics, well done. Cihan, can you look up my post "ask cihan" in the TT turbo section please?

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