Author |
Message |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 753 Reg: 09-2008
| just wondering why they still sell journal bearing turbos if the ball bearing ones are that much better ?? from everything i have read it sounds like the journal bearing turbos should have gone a long time ago. unless there are advantages of having a journal, e.g pros and cons or is the ball bearing cartridge just all around better ?!?! cheers to anyone who can clear this up for me and sorry in advance if this is an old topic |
James Harris
Goo Roo QLD GT Starlet
Posts: 3470 Reg: 07-2005
| yup - dont waste your time with Journal. Ball all the way. OR if you really wanna be awesome http://www.billetturbochargers.com I had a XTR T66 on my soarer and it was built by Mr Turbo with ceramic bearings http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/ceramic.html it was fun. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 757 Reg: 09-2008
| thanks james first time you have actually helped me lolol |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2465 Reg: 08-2005
| Journals are cheaper to buy and rebuild. I plan on getting a big Chevy pickup with a 454 and add twin turbos. As I'm only aiming for around 600hp, cheaper journal turbos will be fine for me. At 7.4L, slightly faster spool to low boost is not a concern. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 759 Reg: 09-2008
| price isnt really a factor miles quality and reliable power is |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2467 Reg: 08-2005
| Then a ball bearing is fine for you. For me, a journal is fine. That is why they still exist. People have different goals. And there is less to go wrong with a journal. For a while I believe a journal turbo was more reliable. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 760 Reg: 09-2008
| what do you mean less can go wrong with a journal ?? do balls have problems ? |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2468 Reg: 08-2005
| That's the nature of a journal. They can naturally take higher loads. Modern ball bearings are plenty reliable though. I'm sure you'll have no problems with a quality ball bearing unit, but it does take a lot more money to make a reliable ball bearing. Just look at a journal next to a roller bearing cartridge. |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2116 Reg: 08-2005
| they are both alright ball bearing spools quicker and you will get a more jet scream to the spool up note as miles says the ball bearings are alot better these days but make sure you buy genuine garrett off a proper dealer. alot of the chinese turbo's that are "garrett internals" are usually copied but with cheaper materials and alot of the time ive seen them not been balanced and they sound like a supercharger on boost and die pretty quick. there is alot of good journal bearing turbo's out there but they usually still cost a fair bit and depending on what you want it for can still be viable. ive seen ihi rodeo ones go over 300,000 on std turbo no rebuild and still have no shaft play its alot on how you treat them aswell. |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1470 Reg: 11-2007
| got money? HKS t04z. Dual ball bearing. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 761 Reg: 09-2008
|
David Tra wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 07:06 pm:got money? HKS t04z. Dual ball bearing.
thats what i mean i would rather be out of pocket for the better turbo and be safe in the long run. so journals are cheaper and less can go wrong, but balls spool faster and go harder just cost more ? |
Aaron Casey
Goo Roo nsw '94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged
Posts: 2122 Reg: 08-2005
| aslong as you buy a garrett or well known brand the ball bearings are fine. t04z would be sweet with a .82 rear bit laggy but would come on very strong |
Costa Tsimiklis
DieHard Victoria 386.2 rwkw Soon T51R or GT4094
Posts: 567 Reg: 07-2008
| Best turbo with heaps of headroom is a Garrett T04Z 0.84 for 1JZ or 2JZ 1.00. You will need HKS 264/264 or 264/272 cams to take advantage of a larger turbos as the standard cams are highly emissions focused and do not flow well enough in the top end, which is where these turbos need to be to shine. Journal turbos are still OK, but do not cope with high boost well due to the high shaft speeds and generally chew out thrust bearings when you abuse them. This will ruin your whole turbo if you do not keep checking it on a high performance build. It happened to me. The dyno graph in my profile picture is the final run I did, WITH a failed thrust bearing and the wheels rubbing on the housing. I didnt know at the time of the power run, but as soon as we stopped that run the end play was 2-3mm. Turbo was a HKS T51S... 60mm/80mm comp and 82/62mm rear with a 0.90 rear housing. I have a feeling that the oil feed I was using did not supply enough pressure to the thrust bearing under high boost (22-26psi) and thus machined itself out over the 500kms It was alive. I am waiting for MR Turbo to get back to me with his mid-large frame turbo sizes as I may go for a turbo between a T04Z and T51 with a MR Turbo setup as they are based on the borg warner turbos which have a good rep amongst high powered street supras in the states. IF this doesnt go through, I'll just get a tried and true Z or a T51R from Garrett and go for 425rwkw on pump and closer to 500rwkw on E85 or C16 with a 1JZ. Its a suicide mission, but I need that magic 10s or lower pass in a manual with slicks and launch control If I run that time and the engine blows - $500 1JZ and a weekend and its back to racing. Every wrecker has 1JZ that have been sitting around for ages because they hardly fail in stock form lol. Journal bearing turbos are cheaper, but they also use the cheaper and older wheels, without the new BB GT wheels and more goes wrong with the thrust side and shaft play as they are very picky with their oil feed and oil pressure. A BB turbo runs a small oil restrictor, high pressure, low flow and is fixed onto place with a tapered race and shaft. There is NO thrust bearing to fail - however the BB core has failed before on OEM XR6 turbos and aftermarket ones - probably due to lack of proper oil supply and/or overcooking the turbo and not letting it cool down properly by driving it around instead of turbo timing for 1mins. IF the turbo is glowing red - its not cool enough! I've had to wait around 10mins after a track session to stop a turbo from glowing red so it could cool down properly. For a full warranty and service, You cant go past Garrett. I may be able to source SC members a cheaper than retail priced Garrett turbo as I am looking at distributing them, with Australian Warranty by Garrett themselves. Really rough / Gustimate cost breakdown for a high performance Soarer/Supra. T04Z is around $2k, T51 around $2.7k and the manifold can be had from $300-$1110k + $600 for a wastegate, $400 for oil/water lines and fittings and around $450 for a custom 3 or 4" exahust with a race cat for your complete hot side + fitting. Then you need to plumb it ot the cooler - $150-300 depending on your setup + ECU, pump, Injectors + Tuning (2-4k+) and you have a complete package ready for some serious power after Cams ($750+ used +fitting). Add a Jim Berry Clutch for Manual +$1100 or so + $350 fitting + seal and oil and the driveline is sorted. If your Auto, Add 3-4k for a proper built box as a shiftkitted stocky wont hold it + you will need a 4500rpm converter to get this thing to boogie with a Z or T51 or similar turbo. So realistically, its a 7-10k exercise to get this thing done properly with new parts, but your soarer will be a screamer! 10sec Soarer is not out of the question with the above package. There is no magic - just science. The goal is to burn as much fuel as efficiently as possible, which makes torque, at a rate per RPM (power) to turn the wheels faster and at a higher rate, so you can go through the gears quicker. There's a lot of tuners and secrets out there, but there's nothing really to it - some methods and factors are tried and true - others are dead set simple. The 1JZ has a few tricks to get better boost and response + make reliable power, but again, its just science and nothing else. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 763 Reg: 09-2008
| hey costa i already have hks 264/264 cams and crower titanium valve springs. i was thinking gt3582r with 0.82 turbine housing. or if it was practical i would get a gt4088r or a gt4094r. what would you recommend for a soarer using science. and i would rather stick to garrett for now and maybe trust or hks down the track.... maybe |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo WA UZZ31
Posts: 2330 Reg: 09-2007
| get a responsive turbo for a daily man. gt35 might be a bit laggy |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1471 Reg: 11-2007
|
Nathan Hlad wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 11:39 pm: thats what i mean i would rather be out of pocket for the better turbo and be safe in the long run.
t04z and be done with it. Vardis has a complete kit for sale. |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1474 Reg: 11-2007
| look, Ive brought the link for you http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/292/309929.html?1273908992 |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 765 Reg: 09-2008
| haha i wish i had that much money |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2479 Reg: 08-2005
| Well your tune changed fast. Fancy a journal turbo now? |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 767 Reg: 09-2008
| hehe miles i mean i dont have enough for either at the moment but when i do i will be getting a gt3582r ball bearing with a 0.82 housing. well 99% sure |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2481 Reg: 08-2005
| Heh heh ;) |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1475 Reg: 11-2007
| But i thought you wanted the best Nathan? |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2482 Reg: 08-2005
| Seriously, past a point it's just throwing money at "the best". A GT series is going to stand up to a hell of a lot of punishment. Are you aiming for 40+psi? I'm sure a GT will be plenty reliable. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 769 Reg: 09-2008
| i do want the best dave but the best for me which i believe is a gt3582r or a gt4088r. and no miles im not aiming for 40+psi i would hope i can make decent power without boosting that high. nice salesmanship dave you should be a used car salesman lol |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1476 Reg: 11-2007
| Spend the extra $$ and purchase Vardis's kit You will find that prices for a gt35r conversion will be on par drive in drive out. Having said that, you can sell your old front mount and turbos etc etc I spent over 4k in my journal bearing conversion lol But hey, your the salesman Nathan. I work in the children services sector. Maybe I should try selling. Are my sale pitchs working for you? lol I dont have any experience with gt40... but majority of the people here are running gt35r. There must be a reason. Join the pack or try something different. Your call |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo WA UZZ31
Posts: 2361 Reg: 09-2007
| gt40 would be hella laggy. |
Costa Tsimiklis
DieHard Victoria 386.2 rwkw Soon T51R or GT4094
Posts: 572 Reg: 07-2008
| GT3582 with a 0.83 rear housing and external gate will be a good streeter, but you will be back for more power, when you get sick of it Big Singles are addictive.. nothing else gives you that rush! I choose T04Z over a GT4088 - the rear wheel of the 4088 and 4094 is too large. The Z uses a similar wheel to the GT35 (albeit older T Series) but it is responsive with the right setup. Cam and Vardis 400+ rwkw with their 1.5JZ setup. The GT35 will run out of puff in the top end with a smaller housing, due to the increase in back pressure. You will need to change to a 1.06 or larger housing to chase more top end. "laggy" big single turbos are great to drive off boost with cams on the street. For Track work and tight circuits, they are not as good due to their lag, but for the street its supreme. Keep in mind that if you go for a T4 setup, you have all the GT40 and GT42 range + T51R turbos that you can install on your manifold. With a T3 GT3540 - that's as big as you're going to get. Dont just buy a turbo and hope its going to work out, you need to sort out the rest of the system to get it working well and reliably. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 774 Reg: 09-2008
| well i would rather boost come on around 4k at the very latest. i always thought a snail would come on positive at about 6k which makes no sense since i will only have 1000rpm of boost, please correct me if im wrong. what would i need to get to keep lag away but still make big power ? i just dont want boost to come on so late there is no revs for it to go through |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 775 Reg: 09-2008
|
Costa Tsimiklis wrote on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 10:53 pm:GT3582 with a 0.83 rear housing and external gate will be a good streeter, but you will be back for more power, when you get sick of it :-) Big Singles are addictive.. nothing else gives you that rush!
can someone please give me a rpm band for the gt35 and t04z, etc. i would have estimated - gt35 4000-7000 gt40 5000-7000 t04z 4500-7000 gt51 6000-7000 how far off was i ?? by the way my rev limit is 7000rpm so what would be more practicable ? cheers heaps |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 776 Reg: 09-2008
| to tell you the truth my soarer is never going to rev over 8000rpm which made me think about getting something in the gt30 range earlier but now i realise a gt30 would be at full boost by about 4000rpm and i would have 3k-4k rpms with no boost increase this is not what i want ! |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo WA UZZ31
Posts: 2365 Reg: 09-2007
| yeh but in a daily driver you only get upto 4000rpm in 1st gear. in 2nd gear 4k is over the speed limit in most areas. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 780 Reg: 09-2008
| i didnt say i was a law abiding citizen ali. but its also my track car. |
Christian Molenda
Goo Roo QLD T
Posts: 1237 Reg: 07-2005
| Nathan, up your rev limit by 500rpm, seeming you have upgraded springs and retainers. The big turbos will love it. As for the bottom end, "She'll be right" You will get alot more (power)out of your setup if you do this and your engine breathes good. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 781 Reg: 09-2008
| i read on the little booklet that came with my cams that they had a limit of 7000rpm but if thats not the case i am willing to go up to 8000 |
David Tra
Goo Roo qld AWD
Posts: 1478 Reg: 11-2007
| If you want kick ass response. Go smaller.. GTRS or something along those lines |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 800 Reg: 09-2008
| so does anyone know if hks 264/264 cams can go above the stated 7krpm limit ?!?! |
Aiden Cheese
TryHard QLD Soarer jzz30
Posts: 444 Reg: 09-2009
| from my experience it isn't the cam's which limit the speed (although often you find lumpy ones work better with a high rpm limit) its the valve springs and if the car has rockers, the rocker integrity. |
Nathan Hlad
DieHard NT JZZ30 TT
Posts: 802 Reg: 09-2008
| i upgraded my springs the same time i put the cams in, but it said on the hks booklet that came with the cams that the cams had a 7000rpm limit. is that maybe just so they cant be held liable for any internal damage ?!?! |