Soarer Central: Safety using 4-5 point harrness on the road?

Soarer Central General Soarer Chat Safety using 4-5 point harrness on the road?

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Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

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Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 06:00 pm, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Would it be fair to say a 4-5 point harness being used on the road would be safer in a collision compared to a conventional 3 point stock seatbelt?

Firstly, are the Legal in Australia for example? Or restricted to the track only...

My thoughts have been that although they hold you in place well, they would restrict your movement, Ie reaching the glove box or adjusting console controls...

During a collision would the belts being tight with no slack, end up giving chest injuries? Seems cars with 3 point belts have systems which allow the belt to gradually slow the occupants movement progressively rather than instantly...

Any thoughts on this?

Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
NT
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car

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Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 07:32 pm, by: Ben Lipman (Ben12a)

Motorsport is the pinnacle of car design, especially function over form. If lap sash seatbelts were the best piece of equipment for restraining passengers then they would be used in F1, WRC, WTCC, V8 Supercars etc. The fact that 4/5/6 point harnesses are mandated safety equipment is testament to the fact that the world leaders in automotive development believe they are the best.

As for seatbelt created injuries I believe you would find a far greater incidence of this in the public arena with lap sash belts than on the track with 4/5/6 point harnesses. This could be because you are held in place tight and there for do not accelerate in relation to the belt before your forward progress is arrested. It could also be the much larger surface area of the belt contact area in a harness spreading the load. I don't know for sure and am only theorising. I have however seen some pretty bad skin burns, bruising, and broken collar bones/ribs from the lap sash belt.

Mind you the injuries sustained from not wearing a belt at all are far greater. It is still the single greatest contributor to occupant safety in a car. (Apart from lancers- the engine in them is their best safety feature in that the doof doof dud inside cannot generate sufficient momentum to hurt anyone)

As for seatbelt restraint use on the road, I think you are correct, in that you need to compromise the safety aspect to allow them to be comfortable enough that the public will wear them. I know for a fact I would not like to drive Sydney to Darwin wearing a tight fitting 5 point harness. Being able to check blind spots, turn around to reverse, and move around in the seat to access all the controls would be difficult in a harness.

I don't really know what the legalities are, but in Australia very little scientific research goes into our road safety laws. Plenty of fiscal research, and a solid business case, but no scientific stuff. I would assume they are illegal.

James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
UZZ31 Soarer

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Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 07:43 pm, by: James Johnson (Jimbo)

Good points raised there Ben. Mike I can tell you now if you in New Zealand are caught wearing one then you can be slapped with obstructing a seatbelt and that is a offence even if you are wearing the normal belt, if you are only wearing a harness and not the factory belt then you can be fined for not wearing a seat belt.

Just letting you know Mike as there are some new cops out there that do not know this but still some of the dinosaurs like my old man going around and issuing people with these infringement notices.

Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

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Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 08:23 pm, by: Ali Saeed (Ali)

you an always have both hanging around though. sit on the 5 point harness when you are driving and leave the factory one off when on the track

Steven Anderson
DieHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Friday, September 17, 2010 - 03:18 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

The only potential problem I have heard is that in a rollover you are stuck where you are. If you are in a car with no cage and the roof starts to collapse, it increases the chance of neck injury as you have nowhere to go.

Aaron Casey
Goo Roo
nsw
'94 jzz30 gttl, 2 mini's one supercharged :-)

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Friday, September 17, 2010 - 06:12 pm, by: Aaron Casey (Blownminiturbo)

then get a cage

hahaha i can see your point though

James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
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Friday, September 17, 2010 - 08:26 pm, by: James Johnson (Jimbo)

Aaron Casey wrote on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 06:12 pm:
then get a cage

Then make it so we don't have to jump thru so many hoops to have one and I certainly will!

Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

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Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 01:27 am, by: Ali Saeed (Ali)

i dont see how having a 5 point harness will be more disadvantageous in a roll over? with a 3 point you will probably fall on your head lol

Steven Anderson
DieHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

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Monday, September 20, 2010 - 09:54 am, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

the general idea is that if the roof collapses its going to start to put pressure on your head. If you are locked into a seat/harness, the only thing that can bend is your neck, if you are only in 3 point belt, your whole body can slide over.

Noones ever tested it, but the theory is fairly sound.

Spencer Cameron
TryHard
NSW
JZZ30 (converted Manual)

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Monday, September 27, 2010 - 10:23 pm, by: Spencer Cameron (Switchio)

I doubt whether being able to use a 4/5 point harness while driving on the road has anything to do with the safety aspect.

On one hand, Non-compliance with ADR together with the varying ways in which different ppl secure their harnesses would stir up a pretty nasty insurance •••• storm.

On the other hand, the psychology associated with the harnesses wouldn't be great for public roads. For the government to allow a modification that makes it easier to drive fast, while at the same time making the fast driver safer, they would have to be a) profiting somehow b) high or c) both.

well, thats my 2 cents anyway..

Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 09:26 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Steven Anderson wrote on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 09:54 am:
the general idea is that if the roof collapses its going to start to put pressure on your head. If you are locked into a seat/harness, the only thing that can bend is your neck, if you are only in 3 point belt, your whole body can slide over.

Noones ever tested it, but the theory is fairly sound.

This type of accident has been tested and your statement has been proven to be correct. In the event of a roll over where the roof collapses you are much more likely to live with a 3 point where as you will die with a 4 point.

If you have a cage then 4 point is a better option but I believe not street legal.

A guy I know with a road registered track car has a full cage, harnesses and race seat, engineered and street legal but he had to keep and use the factory 3 point belts when driving on the street.

Rowan McMahon
Tinkerer
WA
GTT-L

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Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 10:05 pm, by: Rowan McMahon (Mr_eps)

i am very angry and have had a sh1tty day. forgive me if my elduing comments offend.

im not going to lie. i haven't read this entire thread. not going to cos i can already tell what's been said.

original post was something about as smart as:

"duhh hey guys i found out that a race car uses a different system of brakes to the one found in my road going car, does this mean its legal to disconnect my brake system and just use my feet to slow the car down lol?"

then every other post explains why race cars are higher performance than road cars then a few posts later the OP has disconnected his brakes because he felt like it.

STOP. PLEASE. STOP THIS NOW.

a TEAM of people and engineers and designers made your car a certain way with certain safety features to SAVE YOUR LIFE in an accident.
it is a THREE POINT SASH. to save your life.
don't eff-word with it. leave it alone.

to answer your real question - statistically speaking motor racing seatbelt injuries are lower than on road accidents - something for thought..

race accident - you run off the track get caught up in sand and have a rollover. sweet as.

road accident - drunk driver runs a light and plows into your driver side door at 75km/h.

your seatbelt is there for a reason. for that reason. it's in your best interest to leave it there.

Rowan McMahon
Tinkerer
WA
GTT-L

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Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 10:06 pm, by: Rowan McMahon (Mr_eps)

sorry for the rant - but this is a dumb idea.

i like you

but this... this idea is a stupid one. and it's BEAUSE i like you that i' willing to say - please don't touch your seatbelt

Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe

Posts: 5089
Reg: 11-2005

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Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 06:07 am, by: Mike Beck (Gold_40gt)

Yeah agreed Chaps.

I assumed the roll factor would make using one ridiculous and unsafe in an otherwise stock car.

Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

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Friday, October 01, 2010 - 08:11 am, by: Callum Finch (Sigeneat)

Emergency gurus who want to quickly extract you from your car whilst you are rapidly bleeding out will want to cut as few belts as possible. The standard 3 point seatbelt in cars only needs one cut and then retracts out of the way. A racing harness doesnt.

Steven Anderson
DieHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual

Posts: 515
Reg: 05-2006

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Friday, October 01, 2010 - 12:05 pm, by: Steven Anderson (Cusscuss)

Rowan McMahon wrote on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 10:06 pm:
i am very angry and have had a sh1tty day. forgive me if my elduing comments offend.

im not going to lie. i haven't read this entire thread. not going to cos i can already tell what's been said.

original post was something about as smart as:

"duhh hey guys i found out that a race car uses a different system of brakes to the one found in my road going car, does this mean its legal to disconnect my brake system and just use my feet to slow the car down lol?"

then every other post explains why race cars are higher performance than road cars then a few posts later the OP has disconnected his brakes because he felt like it.

STOP. PLEASE. STOP THIS NOW.

a TEAM of people and engineers and designers made your car a certain way with certain safety features to SAVE YOUR LIFE in an accident.
it is a THREE POINT SASH. to save your life.
don't eff-word with it. leave it alone.

to answer your real question - statistically speaking motor racing seatbelt injuries are lower than on road accidents - something for thought..

race accident - you run off the track get caught up in sand and have a rollover. sweet as.

road accident - drunk driver runs a light and plows into your driver side door at 75km/h.

your seatbelt is there for a reason. for that reason. it's in your best interest to leave it there.