| Author |
Message |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 205
Reg: 07-2010
|
Hey guys,
This is going to be a long post and I hope it doesn't start an argument or a flame war (I'm sure were all mature enough  ).
Basically I have been talking to a couple of people (will remain nameless unless they wanna pipe up) about the possibilities of upgrading my 92 LTD 1uz, and wanting to have 220KW.
So far my plan has been to upgrade the following;
- Rush Headers standard size 1 5/8", 2 x Steel core Hi Flow Cats, 2.25" X-Pipe, straight through mufflers + tips
- *new* 1uz, under 140,000 km's
- Supercharger to suit
- W58 or 154, and the ECU to suit conversion.
Now looking at the prices for this, it seems I wont get anything back from around 7.5k for this setup IF I bought a 2nd hand ECU and charger setup.
Then I look at the JZ family, here is a quote from one of the emails: "A factory standard 2JZ out of a Supra TT will give you 265rwkw on 18psi of boost with stock turbos, good exhaust, intercooler and that's it! 2JZ conversion would only cost 2.5k-3.5k fitted depending on the price of the engine."
This really damn burst my bubble there.
I love my uz to much to move to the jz family (I got a UZ because I was sich of seeing countless engine bays of JZ's in various cars, want something different), but for the money spent to gain less power, is it really worth it?
Should I just bore out the cyl's get some bigger pistons with headers and exhaust and be happy with that?
Should I spend the dosh on engine and charger kit.
Should I bite the bullet and just get a JZ?
So I guess basically (if your confused) I'm saying, it SEEMS to cost so much more money to upgrade my UZ with 'eccentric' parts, rather then getting a 1 or 2jz and having same/more powers with bolt ons and stock turbo.
This makes me sad pants  |
Marc Hoffmann
TryHard
Vic
Soarer TT
Posts: 293
Reg: 07-2009
|
swapping to a 2j and then all the parts to make it quick and reliable is alot more than people it make out to be.
its never as easy as "up the boost and a good zorst bro and it'll do 260rwkw" youdd be running alot of parts way past their ranges, such as ecu, fuel system, driveline, and even then probably wont get 250.
many people from here seem to think the 1uz cant make power, but if you listen to the people that have actually built them and not some guy who handed over cash without thinking, youll find that with the RIGHT COMBO of parts they can be very potent.
Ive said for ages i wish i had've bought a v8 soarer, idd simply go for etuners (cihan's) turbo kit and youdd be laughing, even with the standard intake that thing is pulling insane numbers.
i'dd say do some good planning and keep the V8, could you just imagine it, a turbo v8 manual soarer, thats just win right there |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 206
Reg: 07-2010
|
I'm not a huge fan of v8 turbo though, but you don't always get wat you waahh-annt. (Had to put a song in there..)
Can you give me a breif description of this kit please Marc?
Also, the other idea was to juts have a 1jz with bolt ons (Like Scotty that I witnessed get 220kw or so with factory turbo's and LEWS dump pipes?) |
Steven Anderson
DieHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual
Posts: 531
Reg: 05-2006
|
Boosted engines have an easy upgrade path that can be done fairly gradually, they respond better to mods too.
V8 upgrade path up to ~230kw is easy, after that the next step is about 350kw because it involves forced induction. Its not that the TT is particularly 'better' to get power out of, its because you are forced to take a big upgrade all at once (i.e. switch to forced induction). If you went from 230kw -> 350kw on a TT it isnt going to be cheap either. |
Marc Hoffmann
TryHard
Vic
Soarer TT
Posts: 294
Reg: 07-2009
|
etuners site seems to be down atm, but cihan put a up a post with costs on here while ago, being a turbo system theres alot of options, from memory it was around $4>6k
i have found this video shows 260ish-rwkw at no where near redline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5b5rTuPv2Q
i want one |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 207
Reg: 07-2010
|
Steven, are you saying I can achieve 230kw without a super or turbo?
Does this involve ITB's?
Thanks Marc. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1762
Reg: 07-2005
|
2JZ conversion while being *relatively easy* on the scale of things is still not plug and play on a TT soarer let alone a V8, there are lots of little things that will soak up time and money (a lot of re-wiring or swapping parts to make things work, eg dash) so imo it doesnt end up any better an idea than just boosting the UZ (or alternatively selling the car and buying something else).
Plus consider that the exhaust, FMIC and electronics on your 2JZ conversion adds another $1500+ to the equation, all of a sudden youre close to the cost of just buying a blower and ECU for the UZ and bolting it on |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 208
Reg: 07-2010
|
For the record, if I was to have a 1j or do a 2j swap, I would buy a new soarer, not swap from v8 to 2j |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1763
Reg: 07-2005
|
Have a look at Justin Cooks 2JZ thread in the TT worklogs section - his engine cost $2500 alone, thats not even adding the cost of the conversion.
No way youre going to get a 2JZ swap for 2.5k-3.5k fitted depending on the price of the engine."
|
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 209
Reg: 07-2010
|
Yes but, if you spend 7.5k on a new 1uz and blower etc, would you be better off having a TT soarer and getting a 2j in it, then spending the remaining amount of money on it.
Or you can always just upgrade your 1j or make it a 1.5. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1862
Reg: 10-2005
|
Whats wrong with your existing 1uz? |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 210
Reg: 07-2010
|
It has over 200k.
I didn't think it would hold up very well on 220kw with headers/zort/blower etc.
I thought that possibly a 'fresh start' would be the best. Gaining the most parts at once, meaning I get the engine, gearbox, blower, ecu, all conversion all at the same time. Rather then 1 after another. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1764
Reg: 07-2005
|
Well a 1.5 still basicaly means you need to put a 2JZ in so theres no difference there really.
Seems like a lot of effort to go to when youve got a car *right now* that you can bolt on bits to make more than enough power for the street and have better driveability than any JZ to boot.
However as you think you'll be happy with ~220rwkw then your best options as i see it are a cheap M90 + ECU setup on your existing car (you *dont* need to do a manaul conversion for this power), or sell it and get a TT |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1765
Reg: 07-2005
|
a 1UZ engine is like $900, M90 is (correct me if im wrong) ~$400-$500?
Where are you getting 7.5k from? |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 211
Reg: 07-2010
|
Yeah, I realise I don't need a manual, but manuals are what I love
I find Auto's bland and annoying mostly, I can see their uses, but they aren't for me! (Runs in the family, haha).
I go as far as being put off a car by seeing the Auto gear changer.
Thanks Phil and all for the advice and help, always lots of it here!
E: Didn't see your 2nd post Phil.
I beleive I was talking about the whole package, this is part of the email conversation I had.
"1UZ Engine with Loom, no accessories - around $1000
R154 box alone around $2000
Full R154 Conversion Kit to suit JZZ30 Soarer - $3500
ECU - Emanage from $550-1000 used to new.
SC - $2500 - $5000 depending on mods etc." |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1766
Reg: 07-2005
|
That sounds more like what you'd do for 300+rwkw not 200
Also do you know there is a problem with your existing engine because 200,000 is nothing on a looked-after UZ. A quick compression/leakdown test and checking basic condition of things like the timing belt and cooling system and thers no reason you couldnt boost it |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 212
Reg: 07-2010
|
I am not aware of any existing issues with my 1UZ, no.
I have heard a few bad things about boosting 'worn' and 'old' engines, so I thought I would go for one around the 100 mark! |
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 879
Reg: 09-2009
|
Chris Smith wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:13 pm:It has over 200k.
I didn't think it would hold up very well on 220kw with headers/zort/blower etc.
I think you're wrong. I think it is going to handle it fine assuming that the compressions is fine. It's not like these things wear badly hey. you can get 1 million KM's out of them completely stock doing the regular matintenance.
7.5k isn't a lot of money if you're looking at both more power and new transmission. I'd stick with your current engine if I were you - unless it feels rough, or after doing some testing seems not so good.
I'd go a supercharger kit and good exhaust to go with it. Right mods should bring you to your goal with that price range. (with some change)
Don't just dump things because you baselessly think they're no good you'll be throwing away a thousand dollars like that. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 213
Reg: 07-2010
|
Hey, that's why I came on here to ask!
7.5k is a lot of money to me at the moment, but hopefully a new job will cure that (being a trainee on $8.84 an hour is... interesting).
Engine doesn't feel rough, but I haven't had a chance to drive it much!
E: I also heard somewhere that rush import headers don't sit nicely with some/add superchargers? |
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 880
Reg: 09-2009
|
Phil Gibson wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:17 pm:a 1UZ engine is like $900, M90 is (correct me if im wrong) ~$400-$500?
Wow. If you think that's all you need to do to get your car to have more power - slap on the charger?
Hahaha.
Add an ECU - Injectors - Exhaust - oil cooler and perhaps other things depending on exactly how good this engine really is. That and as stated so many times already - the m90 isn't really the best sized supercharger for the 1uz.
Plus he wants to change an engine and convert to manual. Total those figures up and add some labour costings in. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 214
Reg: 07-2010
|
Yes, I would like to do as much as possible myself, but I don't really have an engine hoist handy.
(The mrs did just complete Cert II in Auto however, so this may lead her into some work were there IS one handy!)
E: Some info on blowers here: http://www.bulletcars.com/superchargers/toyota/lexus/soarer-v8-ls400-uz31-uz32-celsior-crown-1uzfe-htv1900-supercharger-system.html |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1863
Reg: 10-2005
|
Chris Smith wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:13 pm:It has over 200k.
I didn't think it would hold up very well on 220kw with headers/zort/blower etc.
There is a 1uz which was supercharged at a little over 200,000km and now has just over 300,000km no problems running 7psi.
Unless your engine is showing signs of being worn out I would stick with it. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 215
Reg: 07-2010
|
ok, cheers.
So thus far, this reduces my costs to the following;
Full R154 Conversion Kit - $3500
Emanage ECU - $550-1000
SC - $2500 - $5000 depending on mods etc |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1864
Reg: 10-2005
|
Phil Gibson wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:17 pm:a 1UZ engine is like $900, M90 is (correct me if im wrong) ~$400-$500?
Where are you getting 7.5k from?
Cheapest good second hand M90 old ford style which was not rebuilt I have seen is $600 most sell for around 1k. Basic rebuild cost new bearings, couple and oil is roughly $400.
Builders kits ie very basic kit with manifold and belt drive configuration which you add your own supercharger and all other parts such as hoses intake is around 3k.
About the best price you will end with an M90 on 1uz and running is for roughly 4k using a second hand blower and builders kit.
Second hand complete setups using the older M90's are typically around 3.5-4k. |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1767
Reg: 07-2005
|
Chris Smith wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:30 pm:I have heard a few bad things about boosting 'worn' and 'old' engines, so I thought I would go for one around the 100 mark!
That refers to engines with poor compression - boosting can exacerbate issues such as burning oil, blow-by, etc. However if the engine is healthy in that regard there should be no problems.
Aiden Cheese wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:30 pm:Wow. If you think that's all you need to do to get your car to have more power - slap on the charger?
Where did i say that was all thats' required?
Re-read what he posted and what i replied to, i was making the point that if the two most expensive parts on his list add up to around $1500, where is this 7.5k coming from? Remember that the manual conversion is irrelevant, especially at such modest power levels
I think we covered in teh other thread that an M90 is not the best supercharger out there but for his power requirements its an option because its cheap. I stand by my stance that you really dont want to keep the factory ECU control but even then and with all the other stuff you listed it would still be nowhere near 7.5k... |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 216
Reg: 07-2010
|
From what I understand, for what I want (220kw) I need/want the following parts;
- M90 + Attachments - 3k
- ECU - $500-$1000
- Rush Headers and zorst - 2k
- Manual - 3k
This correct?
Sorry if I am repeating crap, I'm new to this, so I need it laid out infront of me in broad daylight and obvious |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1866
Reg: 10-2005
|
That is in the ball park but depending on which ECU you use it might cost more and I doubt a manual conversion could be done for 3k.
I priced a manual conversion at 4k plus new clutch plus gear oil and labour. |
Steven Anderson
DieHard
NSW
UZZ31 Manual
Posts: 533
Reg: 05-2006
|
The figures i said before were approximate engine figures, dynos are all over the shop.
Ok heres how I would do (and have done) things, in the approximate order, this is doing it properly and not on the cheap, it wont have problems down the road.
1) BFI - Free
2) Exhaust - 3k - Cost includes new engine mounts which are highly reccomended to do at the same time as you have to do the same work.
3) ECU - 2k - Adaptronic installed and tuned.
Thats ~160-170rwkw depending on your dyno, thats the first stage of N/A mods done.
Next you have to start to do the supporting mods if you wanna go fast.
4) Diff T2 - 1.5k - If you can find one, jump on it, what use is having power if you can't put it down.
5) Wheels/Tyres - 3k - Also handy for going and stopping. With the exchange rate how it is, you can get some very good deals out of the US, they are cheaper than here regardless, the dollar parity is just a nice bonus.
6) Brakes - 2k - Celsior brakes, braided lines. Make sure you get wheels that will clear, this means crazy dish is out unfortunately
7) Swaybars - 700 - Noticable improvement without changing everyday ride quality, get bushes checked at the same time, Poly is a bit harsh, try the swaybars first.
8) Trans - 2-5k - Either a beefed up auto or R154 is required if you are chasing big power, need a clutch to handle it too.
Now the car is actually ready for some serious mods.
9) Blower/Turbo - Sky is the limit, how deep is your chequebook.
8 New injectors needed. Blowers need maifolds and belts, turbos need oil lines and intercooler piping and fabrication. If you get out under 10k you will be lucky. Can skimp out on this and put an M90 in but it makes everything else a bit of a waste when the car is prepared for 400kw.
10) Seats - 2-3k - Ever tried to go around a corner properly fast in a soarer? Flat leather seats do not make for good track day seats.
Then there is all the other stuff that you have to do to keep the car up to spec if you want to make sure it lasts properly. Ive replaced 1/2 the bushes, 100,000k service, 1.5k worth of aircon work, clutch master replaced, power steering gear replaced, coolant lines replaced etc etc, and my car was babied!
Hopefully this gives you an idea of what you are in for, you can obviously leave stuff out, but i think if you are going to do something, do it right. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 217
Reg: 07-2010
|
I think I need a loan... anyone want a kidney? and a liver? |
Mike Beck
Goo Roo
New Zealand
E36 Coupe
Posts: 5184
Reg: 11-2005
|
Hmmm
Well, for me with going down the 1UZ or 2JZ route, the sound is the deciding factor. I like sixes, and turbo ones can sound quiet appealing, but a good V8 sound can't be beat IMO.
I would scrap the idea of an M90, unless its one of those new 4 lobe types. The old ones are quite nasty and theres not much room for improvement once you get it running... they just run way too hot IMO.
My advise would be to spend more on an LSD diff, manual conversion, best ECU setup, Exhaust, and cam shafts. Also getting the heads\runners ported and rebuilt has some slight gains. |
Ty Mackay
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT 1jz-gte
Posts: 1591
Reg: 01-2009
|
Chris Smith wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 02:13 pm:I thought that possibly a 'fresh start' would be the best.
and old engine with Low KM's isnt always a good thing either |
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 889
Reg: 09-2009
|
Phil Gibson wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 03:17 pm: Remember that the manual conversion is irrelevant
This is directly relevant, I was under the impression he just wanted a manual!
Steven Anderson wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 04:28 pm:
9) Blower/Turbo - Sky is the limit, how deep is your chequebook.
See here's where you've probably overshot everything.
What we really need is for Chris to give an indication of his max power. Is he going to stop modifying after this one large outlay of expenses?
If the mods are only going to 200-230rwkw then why get so many supporting mods.
For my TT a 3" dump - 3" stainless and highflow cat and muffler was a total of $1000, I know you need a few more pipes on a V8 but surely not 3x as many? |
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 890
Reg: 09-2009
|
Oh yeah just wanted to say one more thing:
Don't budget on your money. Budget on maybe 2/3rds of your money. You'll find things you missed will crop up and they'll need to be sorted on the day or quickly or from odd places and they'll be expensive. If you don't assume at least 1/3 things are going to be missed (be it simple wrong lengthed intercooling hoses which need replacing or special sized turbo oil return pipe) then you're going to go over budget. Especially if you're doing it yourself. |
James Buchan
DieHard
Vic
V8
Posts: 965
Reg: 10-2008
|
Focus on small things first. Exhaust, headers, brakes, diff, suspension - whatever you like.
That's what I've been up to.
I'm going to do the bigger more expensive things when my job can support it. That is bushes, sway bars, differential, ecu, doing something with the transmission be it a shift kit or a manual conversion and finally a twin screw supercharger. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1868
Reg: 10-2005
|
Aiden Cheese wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 07:05 pm:What we really need is for Chris to give an indication of his max power
Sounds like he already did with 220kw, I assuming 220rwkw.
Chris is your intention to convert to manual before or after power upgrades? |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 218
Reg: 07-2010
|
Depending on cost, I would like to do it at the same time.
I was planning on getting Headers and Zorst first, then the rest at the same time.
haha, I just get to work and start up the PC and someone posts Same for you Damian? |
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'91 UZZ30, '91 manual UZZ31 track bunky, '94 blk/blk UZZ31
Posts: 1769
Reg: 07-2005
|
Aiden Cheese wrote on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 07:05 pm:This is directly relevant, I was under the impression he just wanted a manual!
I wasnt counting it because in his original post it sounded like he thought he needed to convert to manual to handle the power, which is not the case. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 219
Reg: 07-2010
|
naww, I just love changing gears |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1870
Reg: 10-2005
|
Chris Smith wrote on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 08:18 am:I was planning on getting Headers and Zorst first, then the rest at the same time.
I would go for a blower before everything else as it will provide the most significant Hp increase.
I would then go manual if you want that so much and exhaust last. |
Aiden Cheese
DieHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 896
Reg: 09-2009
|
If you do exhaust last you'll feel the most power from the exhaust lol. because it's basically like a 5%-10% upgrade no matter what. So if its last when you're at 190kw, you'll jump to like 210 nearly (maybe!)
(note all figures are rough estimates haha) |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 220
Reg: 07-2010
|
I want the V8 rumble though
I guess I'm weird like that... fark me I'm sounding like a woman! haha |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1871
Reg: 10-2005
|
Chris Smith wrote on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 01:56 pm:I want the V8 rumble though
Then you could do a cheap cat back system to start with using quality mufflers and resonators which will still be compatable with your headers later on. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 221
Reg: 07-2010
|
Would that 'mimic' or be like the sound of what I posted above, being: 2 x Steel core Hi Flow Cats, 2.25" X-Pipe, straight through mufflers + tips then the addition of rush headers. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1872
Reg: 10-2005
|
I think you will find that system would be horribly loud. With stock manifolds and cats it would probably be ok but I would certainly be using resonators as well. |
Chris Smith
TryHard
Tasmania
Soarer UZZ31 V8
Posts: 222
Reg: 07-2010
|
I'm not sure, I found it on a youtube video and someone posted once that it was his setup from 2002 and it was alright.
Hopefully they come along and give their input! |
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