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Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 35
Reg: 04-2013

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 10:14 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been reading about tyres.
What grips best.? Mostly interested in the aspect ratio as I want bigger brakes, but don't like thin tyres. So there is road conditions car weight , compound of tyres, width of tyres, tread paten of tyres, and my favourite, aspect ratio.
Lots of reading lots of opinions.
Head is hurting. then I remember I have a formula, ...so I saw an add for company making exhaust systems. they said if you don't believe o ours is good. have a look at the headers on an F1 car we copied them. Fi engines make over 4 hp po per cubic inch. thats 1000 HP 1uz no boost.
So F1 car is the standard. or formula.
So what aspect ratio are the tyres on an F1
50 and Nascar use 55. that surprised you didn't it.
SSo if I now apply some soarer logic to this it It means since cars have gone above 16 inch wheels. they have been going backwards in the tyre department. So once again soarer is best. Ya
I need 17 inch wheels for the brakes.if I use tt diff in my v8 I can use 50 or 55 walls. I recon
Michael Sinay
DieHard
NSW
TT

Posts: 546
Reg: 07-2005

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 11:08 pm, by:  Michael Sinay (Mikey) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I'm very surprised...
Matt Newman
DieHard
QLD
soarer tt

Posts: 857
Reg: 11-2007

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 11:29 pm, by:  Matt Newman (Soarersrock) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nope not surprised at all after all if you look at the sidewalls on both the stated racing classes they are massive for the with of the tyres used. now as for your question i really think you should be more concerned in keeping you speedo accurate. i dont believe that dropping the aspect ratio to even as low as 30 will hinder performance on the street as in a street car the suspension is soft and will move to keep contact with the surface however on a race car the suspension is hard and they need the bigger sidewalls to take up the small surface changes.

as for 17's i ran 235/45/17 on my soarer with 8 inch wide rims to no effect. and currently im running 18's at 235/40/18 front on 8.5 and 265/35/18 rear on 9.5 and have had no great shortage of traction. best thing to do is to get the best tyres you can afford and enjoy.
Jamie Richards
TryHard
St.john's
v8

Posts: 219
Reg: 06-2009

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 03:59 am, by:  Jamie Richards (Nwb40gt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At what off set matt?
Matt Newman
DieHard
QLD
soarer tt

Posts: 858
Reg: 11-2007

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 11:52 am, by:  Matt Newman (Soarersrock) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

from memory the current set is +48 front and +45 rear, the 17 i had were +35 for 8 inch wide and the rears were +30 on 9 inch wide rims. also i should mention that my guards are unmodified and the car is fairly low at about 350 mm center of wheel to guard
Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 36
Reg: 04-2013

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 05:27 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have three v8 soarers one stock 15 wheels , one stock 16 tt wheels , one with 245 35 19 .35 offset. The 15s no traction, the 16s very comfy handles and grip acceptable. 19s look tough but steers bad and rough ride. I have decided offset is critical . 225 tyres and no less than 45 offset on the front for nice driving.
As far as I can understand the reason they use the 50 or 55 wall on race cars is about feel.
low profile tyres will grip exactly the same until at let go point . they hold there square shape more so when they let go they do it without warning. whereas the more balloon tyres you have much better feel when the tyre is starting to let go go. makes cense I guess. But then again I don't guess. I have the formula. if an F1 car uses 50 wall tyres they must be the best.
Dave Rose
Goo Roo
wa
UZZ31 / ML320 CDI

Posts: 2473
Reg: 03-2007

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:19 pm, by:  Dave Rose (Sand_groper) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


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Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 37
Reg: 04-2013

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:26 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Must mention.
I don't care about speedo reading, dont care about electric seats, don't care about music, dont care about air con, don't care about ABS.
one of my cars will have all this removed.
So if want to call me an idiot please do it now
Ben Lipman
Goo Roo
SA
Soarer TT manual, plus TT track car, plus a spare shell

Posts: 3738
Reg: 04-2006

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:29 pm, by:  Ben Lipman (Ben12a) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On an F1 car the side wall flex forms part of the suspension. Large side wall allows them to run very short travel suspension (back in the '80s some were experimenting with no suspension pivots or joints, just the flex in the arms themselves!). They also run extremely soft tyres that get 50 - 100km of wear, not particularly desirable on a road car.

If you think this idea of yours is even worth indulging, you would be better off looking to production based race cars, that is cars that use suspensions based around those designed for road cars, on cars that are of a similar weight to road cars. Like British touring cars (18inch rims), V8 Super cars (17 inch rims, now moved to 18 inch to fit bigger brakes), or better yet IPRA, production sports etc.
Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 38
Reg: 04-2013

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:32 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only 70 % of tyre is touching the road. cant see that working.
Love the ISF pipes.
Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 39
Reg: 04-2013

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:59 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fair point about production cars a better example.
just had a look at v8 super car tyres.
Guess what they are not low profile either.
look to be about same. 50 in the wall.
They use controlled tyres. Dunlop sp sport 280/680 R 18. don't get what the 680 means. 11 ionch rims so 280 wide.
I know its going to hard to accept but low profile tyres are not better.
Blake Gloyn
Goo Roo
manawatu
soarer JZZ30 TT

Posts: 1161
Reg: 02-2006

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:54 pm, by:  Blake Gloyn (Blakenz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the 680 is 680 mm tall.
which makes them 40 profile.(40% of 280mm width is the sidewall height) in this case approx 112mm.
Matt Newman
DieHard
QLD
soarer tt

Posts: 859
Reg: 11-2007

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Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 09:19 pm, by:  Matt Newman (Soarersrock) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok question time Noel if you dont care about all the above mentioned and you want to look to racing as the best example why do you care about tyres and there aspect ratio, i mean you not after comfort or traction or what ever just sounds like you want to say to someone down the pub " your wrong and im right because i fitted tyres with xx sidewalls " i mean its a pointless discussion as any good tyre will grip regardless of the sidewall hight, personally i like the feel of the lower profile tyres and have found they give me better feedback but hey that could just be my thoughts.
Robert Day
DieHard
victoria
v8 & TT

Posts: 739
Reg: 01-2007

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Friday, May 30, 2014 - 12:05 am, by:  Robert Day (Lexsmaz) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tuff look above & luv the pipes but as the rear tyres have stretched sidewalls it makes the sidewall's quite stiff & so generally the grip level drops off at side high loads ..
Matthew Salkeld
TryHard
South Australia
1JZ powered 180sx

Posts: 223
Reg: 07-2008

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Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:57 am, by:  Matthew Salkeld (Munkymatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You want to maximise contact patch area without compromising other handling features...

A larger tyre outer diameter will increase contact patch more than increasing width. There are some porsches running like 13 inch rear wheels (and tyres to suit) but they get squashed by cars running more suitably matched tyres in around 10inch wheels. Obviously we run negative camber to compensate for the fact that the car has roll in corners (no matter how stiff; the tyre will also distort due to cornering forces) and we want grip primarily in corners. I recently observed an FSAE team swapping out the control tyres for much smaller ones and their result was roughly 15% corner speed increase... arguably, the car might have had more pressing setup problems.

Also, bear in mind that increasing unsprung mass by putting on huge tyres will reduce overall traction rather than increase it. There are theories which describe this behavior but unless you really algebra then the equations don't really help with choosing tyres.

At the end of the day, tyre compound and suspension setup are more important than raw rubber. There's a thread on NS where a bunch of time-attack cars are complaining about how they added wider tyres and lost heaps of time on the track (by heaps I mean around 1sec on a 1:40 track)

What I'm trying to convey here is that you can't just look at a car and say huge slicks, plenty of grip!".

But you still want to find out what will work best? Welcome to what every racing engineer with access to open specification has been trying to figure out for a long time. Most cars (that i've taken a close look at) who have had the cash to trial and error end up with an overall ratio somewhere squarer than 2:1 (height:width) but never really close to 1:1. The old 80's turbo f1 cars were out in Adelaide recently and some of them were running modern slicks on original rims; ie. enormous. They still had less traction than modern cars. (What they DID have is huge power and working aero; but not the speed to use it on the shortened track :-( ).

For what it's worth; I bumped into a guy at uni one day who had been working with v8 supercar teams providing a chassis/suspension design evaluation service. He claimed that for a car like mine (180sx), with a good track suspension setup, would get peak grip with NO MORE than 225/45/17 in a medium or hard compound. Take it with a grain of salt because firstly, people are liable to exaggerate and secondly, his evaluation is highly analytical (which means it requires good measurement) and since we weren't going through that process, he could only estimate what the end result would be based on other, similar vehicles. I wasn't convinced entirely, he was totally and 100% against increasing width to gain traction where I prefer more of a middle ground approach.
Matthew Salkeld
TryHard
South Australia
1JZ powered 180sx

Posts: 224
Reg: 07-2008

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Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:02 am, by:  Matthew Salkeld (Munkymatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh btw be careful regarding "f1 is best" when making comparisons... bear in mind that they're not using those tyres because they want to but because they've been told to; in many cases the rules exist to slow the cars down.

F1 is not about "as fast as possible" and really hasn't been since around the 40s/50s. Look at time-attack, hill-climb and other such categories for the "as fast as possible" cars.
Boris Siljanoski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
LS400 + Soarer.

Posts: 2198
Reg: 11-2007

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Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 08:26 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michelin Pilot Super sports are good.
Noel Howlett
Tinkerer
victoria
soarer v8 base model

Posts: 41
Reg: 04-2013

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 09:18 pm, by:  Noel Howlett (Growl) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

answer to Matt Newman, your on to me to dude. your right its just beer talk. I figured if I asked a basic question I would get a basic answer.
so if I get specific and pretend I have some idea what Im talking about I would get more detailed answers. And I have learnt a fair bit about tyres through this post.
Low profiles would match or perhaps better most tyres for most conditions. purely because more choice of compounds. I think more balloon tyres would have an advantage on secondary roads.
thanks to everyone for their input.
And the rip the bits out the soarer thing. I will do a post with pics at latter date. Still collecting parts.
and Matt I will shout you abeer sometime
Justin Hughes
Goo Roo
Victoria
V8 Soarer

Posts: 1504
Reg: 07-2005

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 05:55 pm, by:  Justin Hughes (Juzza) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with Boris; Michelin Pilot Sport ALL THE WAY (Pilot Sport Cup if your pockets are deep enough)

... my Lap Record at Phillip Island was on 17" rims; the Soarer loved them.

I used to run a staggered setup which obviously gives you a taller wall at the front - works a treat.
This envokes understeer as well, which suits my style of driving.

Those rims are EXACTLY the same size - great optical illusion.
Justin Hughes
Goo Roo
Victoria
V8 Soarer

Posts: 1505
Reg: 07-2005

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Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 06:14 pm, by:  Justin Hughes (Juzza) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



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