Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 01:42 am, by: Callum Finch(Sigeneat)
I have asked a similar question about upping the boost on steel wheel's. Answer i got was that you would end up pushing through much hotter air than at optimal levels. If that makes sense?
Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 01:56 pm, by: Savo Reg(Savo)
hi,
more boost the hotter air but thats a easy fix, front mount intercooler..
I just sold my 440cc injectors as i didnt want to upgrade my soarer as i want to use the standard ECU reason being is petrol cost, this is my work car.
Was hoping to put the steel wheel turbos as im pretty sure ill blow these turbos up when i boost them to 14psi and do a dump pipe upgrade....
what about doing this, run 16psi on the steel wheel turbos (CT20A) of my 2jz, im not sure if ill get a performance increase becasue i assume they will take longer to spool????
But i assume the mixer levels should be Ok to 16psi but will the CT20A turbos give me more performance??
Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 06:22 pm, by: Cihan Aday(Cihan)
Savo, how about attempting to install the ct20a's before making wild suggestions. Its not a straight swap.
There is an optimal modification path for the 1JZ, many have followed it and had huge success. Do it 'your own way' and there will be consequences that you need to contend with. To save yourself the time and money I would personally recommend you outflow the stock turbo's before looking into 2J items as a potential replacement.
The standard ct12a's just need an exhaust system, FMIC and piggyback management to run 12's. To run above about 13.5psi you will need a boost cut defender or some form of piggyback management; you will constantly hit the ECU implemented boost cut otherwise.
When coupled with piggyback management 440cc injectors will not decrease fuel economy under boost or off boost. Our engine management uses an exhaust mounted narrow band oxygen sensor to determine whether the fuelling output is within in a certain region, and makes adjustments to related parameters if the injectors are causing an over-rich condition for the given pulse width. The changes are permanent and occur within seconds. All you need to worry about is leaning out the additional fuel on boost (actually >3psi). Thats easily rectified by inexpensive piggyback management systems like the apexi safc and the greddy emanage.
The first post defines a very good path to follow for best results with the least amount of money.
In my personal experience, 15-16psi is safe with stock turbo's unless you hold that boost to redline. Standard yellow injectors are also good for about 16psi, tuned, with stock turbos and cams. With a high flowing front mount, i wouldn't recommend pushing more than 16psi. The problem is at about 4,000 just after you hit full boost, there simply isn't enough time to inject enough fuel and you hit 100% duty cycle fast.
Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 07:18 pm, by: Savo Reg(Savo)
wild i wouldnt think so... I know its not a straight swap but not a hard one...
Im trying to get away with what i have, what i have is spare set of steel wheels CT20A turbos. Yes i know 440cc wont make the engine use more fuel but i dont have an after market ECU and dont want to be changing it.
I let people know how i go if i end up mounting my 2jz turbos on. if not they will be on ebay
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 01:58 pm, by: Luke Nieuwhof(Luke_nieuwhof)
Err yeah...as does power. What's your point? The standard ECU will always throw in a rather safe amount of fuel anyway so fuel-saving benefits are non-present.
Ben Socratous DieHard SA Iv'e started to put my interior back together!!!
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 07:18 pm, by: Ben Socratous(Socrates)
Savo Reg wrote on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:53 pm:
luke fuel = how heavy your foot is mate
To an extent, but you can drive a big block chev like you're grandparents and it'll still chew through more fuel than a 1J on full boost!!! ie if you're worried about fuel consumption, 20psi is outta the question.
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:36 pm, by: Savo Reg(Savo)
Luke what aload of crap, so if my cars makes more power on boost its going to use more fuel driven with out boost,,,
and talking about making more power and saving fuel yes it can be done, so talking about it in the same thread i dont see an issue. (its called efficiency) but thats not what this thread is about.
What im trying to do if you read the thread is push 20psi into my engine with a standard ECU and injectors and a set of 2jz steel turbo's that i have spare. no it cant be done as someone has mentionend but 16psi i shoudl get away with thats all i need to know.
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:38 pm, by: Shane Ilich(Ferret)
Ok.
Firstly, to answer your question, "will the stock ecu handle 20psi?".
My answer - No.
My justification - you have a factory map sensor that impelements a fuel cut at a boost level of 14psi. It IS possible to fit a map sensor that will raise this to 18psi. I have heard rumours of the factory ECU running maps of up to 19psi. But 20?? No. Ask Manny Spinola for more clarification here.
Secondly, the turbos. Turbos have an efficiency range. Whilst I am not sure on the exact specifications, the CT20A is still a small turbo, and 20psi would more than likely be well exceeding their efficiency range. I would expect Cihan can offer a more detailed explanation here, he's got more of a thermodynamics background than I.
Thirdly, the fuelling. Adding air means increasing fuelling as well. And the stock 330's will NOT be able to supply sufficient fuel to maintain safe AFRs at 20psi. Which means bigger injectors, which means an aftermarket piggyback to control and tune said bigger injectors.
Fourthly, and I may be totally wrong here, but were not the 2jz turbos a sequential turbo setup? ie completely different to the soarer setup?
Fifthly - how do you intend to run your turbo's at 20psi? And how are you going to be tuning that 20psi boost curve? Surely you will require an after-market boost-controller there.
Sixthly, there is the issue of the factory ECU self-regulating ignition timing according to the AFR's, and the possible ramifications of how this will happen if the ECU is even capable of seeing 20psi.
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:41 pm, by: Shane Ilich(Ferret)
Savo Reg wrote on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:36 pm:
Luke what aload of crap, so if my cars makes more power on boost its going to use more fuel driven with out boost,,,
No, but off boost it wont be making a lot of power, either...on boost, sure, power, but also fuel.
Savo Reg wrote on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:36 pm:
What im trying to do if you read the thread is push 20psi into my engine with a standard ECU and injectors and a set of 2jz steel turbo's that i have spare. no it cant be done as someone has mentionend but 16psi i shoudl get away with thats all i need to know.
OK, but given the stock fuel cut at a boost level of 14psi, how do you intend to run 16psi into the turbos without an aftermarket controller?
And you will most likely find that the stock injectors aren't capable of supporting 16psi anyways - there's a reason the 2jz's came with 440s and 550s stock...
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:51 pm, by: Savo Reg(Savo)
First; yep
second; aristo turbos are steel turbos not the same as supra 2jz turbos and are slightly bigger.
third; yep right
Fourth; Nope there not sequential
Fithy; Yeah was going for a solenoid boost control setup.
What ill end up doing if the turbos are not that laggy for a 2.5 (ill do some calling) just mount them and run them at 16psi, with a modded map and do a dyno run and a fuel regulator.
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:57 pm, by: Shane Ilich(Ferret)
Savo Reg wrote on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:51 pm:
What ill end up doing if the turbos are that laggy for a 2.5 (ill do some calling) just mount them and run them at 16psi, with a modded map and do a dyno run.
OK, dude, I'm running a Garrett GT3040R, and thats not laggy. I hit full boost by 3500rpm in all gears except 1st, and thats with just a very rough road tune for fuel, no boost control just wastegate spring pressure, and no ignition timing. That will all change when my PowerFC arrives, and I expect that I will be hitting boost a few hundred rpm lower on my final tune.
And please explain the "modded map"? If you're meaning you'll get the factory ECU chipped/modded/reflashed, as far as I'm aware it cant be done. All you can do is find a Mines ECU scondhand for like $800 that has been created for another car with modifications, or get one created by Mines specifically for your car (at a cost of closer to a couple of grand). These Mines ECUs are still not retuneable once created.
And for the cost of a fuel regulator, fitting it, and the decreased safety associated in doing it, why not just spend $400 max on a set of secondhand 440s that drop straight in, and will suffice for 16psi? Hell, for 600 bucks, you can have a set of 440's, a Jaycar digital fuel adjuster to tune them (that has been set up and running on my car for the last 12 months), and a Jaycar Electronic Boost controller including Turbosmart solenoid (also run briefly on my car fine, until I got the new wastegate) off me in a few weeks once I get my PowerFC. They will see you through to 16psi fine.
Savo Reg wrote on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 08:51 pm:
second; aristo turbos are steel turbos not the same as supra 2jz turbos and are slightly bigger.
Yeah, but slightly bigger may not be big enough still to be thermally efficient at even 16psi. But I'll leave that to Cihan. All I'm saying, is compare the difference in size of a "big single" designed to run at a range of 15-25psi, and the size of the CT20A, and there's a reason the "big singles" are so much bigger...
Monday, August 14, 2006 - 09:38 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess(Jampac)
Savo, you say you have a spare set of turbos, but do you also have a spare engine? Even if you get the mixtures right, etc... its still a ceramic turbo and sometimes when ceramic turbos go, they literally implode and get sucked into the engine leaving you with 0 compression across pretty much all cylinders, and a rather useless engine or a useful boat anchor.
I have a mate that this happened to, and know of two others that this has occured with. Even 16psi is danger zone. I was running my stock ceramics on 15psi and I blow one of the turbos. There old, there not that relieable anymore, your trying to push something that has already had its day.
Do it right, go big single with a new garrett dual ball bearing turbo. They love 20psi, and lub even more
Also why are you bothering with 2jz turbos? There not bolt on, totally diff bolt pattern to 1jz. So by the time you get them on there, your in single turbo price range.
As for actually running 20psi on a stock ecu, yes it can be done with piggy back installed as cihan pointed out. I've run up to 25psi with stock ecu with short run on dyno, but 20-21psi regularly.
You can return the same or better fuel economy as standard as a large single turbo is generally more efficency than the stock twins that came on the soarer some 15 years ago, and are most likely tech from the early to mid 80's at best. The stuff you buy now is like early 2000 tech, maybe late 90's. I've seen compressor/turbine maps from garrett dated as early as 1992 for dual ball bearing design.
This is assuming your after fuel economy, which is odd thing to want when chasing power.
Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 03:31 pm, by: Maurice Diggler(Mau_rice)
I agree Ben.
The costs will definately get out of hand.
* Modifying your stock manifolds to suit 2JZ turbos * Modifying your stock intercooler piping to suit 2JZ turbos * Modifying your stock intake pipes to suit 2JZ turbos * Modifying your stock dump pipes to suit 2JZ turbos
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