Soarer Central: With the $2000 rebate, is anyone going to convert to LPG?

Soarer Central General Soarer Chat With the $2000 rebate, is anyone going to convert to LPG?

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Bill Bogiatzis
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 05:22 pm, by: Bill Bogiatzis (Boggie23)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You lose power if your car is tuned for petrol. That is why dual fuel is not a good idea.

For your car to performe it needs to be LPG only and tuned by a specialist.

That car above is owned by the GASMAN and runs 9's. And he drives to the track runs a 9 and drives home.

LPG is a power not many rate but it is just as good if not better than petrol.

But to get it to work properly you need big $$$$$.

That set up above cost upwards of $45000. So the 2000-3000 dollar conversion will run like crap and will loose power. But a 4 grand conversion and then a lot of time and money will bring some BIG results.

Bill Bogiatzis
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 05:29 pm, by: Bill Bogiatzis (Boggie23)

Oh and also you can use one of those BBQ gas bottle things as a gerry can or what ever you call it.

You can modify it and you can put 5-10 liters or what ever the capacity is. When you run out of petrol you take it to a petrol station and fill it up.

I am not for LPG'ing a Soarer but not against it either.

But i have read up quite a bit on the concept of high performance cars run on it.

Jeff Wilkins
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 07:19 pm, by: Jeff Wilkins (Calin)

Bill, you've gone off the rails a bit mate

I dont think anybody is debating about whether horsepower can be made with an LPG setup. There are quite a few high horsepower straight LPG cars getting around.

We're talking about efficiency, about saving some $$ while retaining drivability/useability.

Straight LPG systems work bloody well but as youve mentioned they are a big dollar investment. How long do ya reckon it would take to recover the setup/R&D costs for a straight LPG conversion into a soarer?

Most people can afford the dual fuel arrangement (especially with the government rebate), this system however does have some drawbacks that should be factored into your decision to get or not to get one installed in your car.

Personally Ive had 3 such cars over the years, HZ 350ci Statesman, VH 6cyl Dunnydore and an EF 4.0ltr falcon. My experiences with these vehicles have left me with the conclusion that dual fuel aint worth the headaches.

The issues:
The statesman, I had when gas was 7-10 cpl, and was very cheap to run. The gas solenoid however was about as robust as a crinkle cut chip and would crap itself pretty regularly (Im sure theyre better now). This had an unfortunate effect of stalling the car and it didnt like switching over to petrol at that point so many an hour was spent on the side of the road swearing at it.

The dunnydore, Gas had risen at this point to about the 15 cpl mark. This system had an issue where again it would stall for no apparent reason and occasionally upon popping the bonnet there was a thin coat of frost over half the engine! (Yes it was tested for leaks, many times. None found).

The falcon. Gas, still on the up was getting to about 30 cpl. This setup didnt have any reliabilty problems as such (the solenoid again failed, but only once so we can let that slide). Now, I know that 4.0 ltr fords arent exactly drag cars but this thing couldnt pull the skin off custard while on gas. I found myself using so much throttle that gas usuage was through the roof! It was realistically only about 20% cheaper than running on petrol and I was perpetually at servos filling the bloody thing up (which took a bloody long time, them gas pumps are pretty slow for some reason).

It was after that vehicle that I said to myself, they can keep the bloody LPG, Ill stick to BBQ's.

HOWEVER (hehe, bloody essay!)
Current brand new conversions may be flawless. Horsepower drops may be less noticable. Reliability may be near perfect.
It may be the right thing to do.

I'll stick to the best Premium juice that I can get my hands on and leave the gas well alone.

Now whos gone off the bloody rails....

Neil Griffiths
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 08:31 pm, by: Neil Griffiths (Aussiesc)

More viabilty in MAKING the Gov push E90 or M10
80/10 Ethanol/Methanol.
Brazil has been doing it for Decades.
Then other people will make money and the prices CAN be reduced for running a car.
Good power can be made from these substances.
BUT,
Oil companies control the Gov,,so don't expect to see this in our lifetime..hahahaha

Check out the new 4 fuel Fiat that is being made for Brazil.. CNG / Gasoline / Ethanol / LPG.
You just fill with whatever is cheapest at the time, and it will run on it.

Methanol in its pure form is BAD..But makes great power..hahahah
It also has BAD Emmisions

But a VERY HOT Cat Convertor can lower this.

Callum Finch
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 09:01 pm, by: Callum Finch (Sigeneat)

Looking at gassin' up my ol ED Falcoon.

Dave Hart
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 09:12 pm, by: Dave Hart (Davyboy)

LPG is mainly propane and the energy conversion is about 1.3:1. So you'd need 1.3 litre of LPG to go as far as 1 litre of petrol.
I petrol is $1.56/litre then LPG would need to be less than $1.20/litre.
You'd need to do a lot of k's/yr to recoup any conversion costs.
Public transport, taxi's etc should convert but they're probably on diesel.
The government need to be seen doing something to clean up the world but if too many people convert then the price of of LPG will rise to close that of petrol.
Those that convert now will save more than those who leave it.
There's not much room in a Soarer for a conversion so those that don't like the cost of running their car should think of buying a cheap economical car for everyday travel and just use the Soarer for those special times.

Matt Worrad
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 09:22 pm, by: Matt Worrad (Mworrad213)

I brought the question up at class today, and discussed it with my lecturer who is very familiar with gas and has done several conversions and who I believe is a very wise man as he has been involved in several levels of Motorsport.

He told us that he couldn't recommend a better fuel for turboed car. He explained this by telling us that it has a much higher octane of around 120 which means no "knock" which means you can run higher compression ratios.

He also covered the point of why people bitch and whinge about power loss, which is due to the fact that the timing on gas needs to be advanced and also the fuel mapping needs to be changed to match the need for more fuel as it hits boost, this is determined via positive manifold pressure line which connects to the large diaphragm on the liquid "convertor" regulator. If mapped and spark advanced correctly with an after market computer he believes a car like my tt could benefit hugely.

We discuss the topic for about an hour and he believes that LPG will have a huge impact in our field, motor racing, so what he would like to do is, some gas conversions to get us ready for the day when we have to work with them at the track.

We also covered the fact that LPG is a non renewable resource like petrol, well actually a percentage of LPG is pure petrol and some day LPG will be expensive.

Now, safety, it has been found that LPG is safer as they have a hose that will just burn off in the case of a fire then a release valve will shoot out gas with a small flame until pressure is relieved from the valve.
But the tanks subject to huge amount of pressure have been shown to be able to handle it. An example is the Ash Wednesday bushfires. The houses with LPG, that were burnt down had not burnt down due to gas tanks exploding but rather the relief valve setting something nearby alight, whilst tanks were all fully in tact.

We also thought that 4000 is ridiculous for a conversion be it dual or full. You would have to drive the car for too long to benefit. I think its just a psychological thing, i.e. it's just not as painful paying 48 c or whatever it is. I would be more so looking at the benefits for my engine rather then the benefits for my petty money.

In my position where I have access to free labour and skilled tradesmen and a dyno for tuning, I think it is a good idea given the benifits. Jealous yet? haha if only I wasn't a student and had some kind of funds for my project.

I hope you can take something from our class discussion and if you think theres anything I should bring up with regards to LPG at class let me know.

Peter Nitschke
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:43 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

If you read much about LPG in global news items, I wouldn't be betting it will stay as cheap as it is for very long.

Tamatha Chapman
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:56 pm, by: Tamatha Chapman (4ltrv8)

Peter Nitschke wrote on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:43 pm:
If you read much about LPG in global news items, I wouldn't be betting it will stay as cheap as it is for very long.

Second that.

As gas is currently not taxed, how long before it is and the price hikes. As it is the Gov't giving the rebate won't be long before it happens.

Gary Redman
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:16 am, by: Gary Redman (Gary)

I can recall about 10 years ago when Boral Gas got involved with power boat racing and set up a Big Block circuit boat running on gas. I can't remember if it was turboed or blown, but it wasn't worth a duck's fart. Most of the injected 6 litre boats flogged it.

Sean Camelin
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 11:51 am, by: Sean Camelin (Krener)

Tamatha Chapman wrote on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:56 pm:
Peter Nitschke wrote on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 11:43 pm:
If you read much about LPG in global news items, I wouldn't be betting it will stay as cheap as it is for very long.

Second that.

As gas is currently not taxed, how long before it is and the price hikes. As it is the Gov't giving the rebate won't be long before it happens.

I agree totally with Peter and Tamatha.
As much as it may appear to be 'scaremongering' in some peoples eyes, it will be inevitable for the Government and LPG suppliers/manufacturers to creep the price up giving them money for nothing so to speak.
Supply and demand, and as soon as people start reaping benefits from converting to a cheaper fuel source the Government will see that they have more money in their pockets, and want to pinch it.
If they don't, some suit wearer will claim our inflation rate is spiralling out of control and bump up interest rates, placing the average Joe back into the same spot we're in now.
Yes it sounds 'gloomy', this I realise, but it is the reality that will occur.
Remember that famous saying 'No such thing as a free lunch'.
Now, rather than put a 'band-aid' on this problem that they will only rip off and hurt us anyways in the future, why not cut the crap and stop the 'War on Terror' rubbish that created these retarded oil prices in the first place!
Yeah.........pfffft, not likely

Luke Nieuwhof
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:27 pm, by: Luke Nieuwhof (Luke_nieuwhof)

Hey I might switch to LPG and buy me a house!

Check out the size of the subsidy according to this report hehehehe.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1716275.htm

Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:37 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Our petrol prices have little to do with the government. Government excise is fixed and has been for many years, it hasn't changed.

The war on terror, plus the huge industrial growth in China and India are the major factors.

However, the local Oil companies are making HUGE profits from our perception that it is global issue and the government causing the problem.

Check this graph out. Notice how oil price peaked BEFORE hurricane Katrina and wasn't actually affected by it, then see how the price of petrol was jacked way up simply because the oil companies could get away with it due to their scaremongering and the media's willingness to sensationalise it.

Also notice how the oil price has been pretty stable since about January, only moving a couple of dollars per barrel up and down, but the price we pay has just kept going up and up.

The area between the 2 lines on the graph is oil company profit. Compare Jan 05 to now.
The cost of refining hasn't changed, if anything it should go down a bit due to increased efficiencies.

Expect the same thing to happen to LPG.

Dave Hart
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:55 pm, by: Dave Hart (Davyboy)

You need to factor in the exchange rate.

Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 01:35 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Minor issue - red herring.

Peter Nitschke
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 02:06 pm, by: Peter Nitschke (Pen)

Exchange rate. In jan 05 it was around $0.78, exactly as it is now.

Michael Machin
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 03:12 pm, by: Michael Machin (Minz)

Matt Worrad wrote on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 09:22 pm:
He told us that he couldn't recommend a better fuel for turboed car. He explained this by telling us that it has a much higher octane of around 120 which means no "knock" which means you can run higher compression ratios.

In NZ LPG (Rockgas company) is only 99 octane, if the stickers on their tanks are correct.

My grandad made a coke (carbon, not the terrible drink) powered car once, back when he worked for MOTAT. Saw coal for sale $8.95 for 25kg today...

Mike Triggs
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 05:36 pm, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

I'm late to this topic due to other stuff happening around this 'lil ole island, but coincidentally I have been researching LPG and nothing to do with the subsidy. Rather than spend $4k+ taking the Wizard back and having lots of hassles doing so I've decided to sell it here and get a Land Rover Discovery V8 (sadly they don't have a Toyota V8 under the bonnet

) and have gas fitted, hopefully prior to our arrival on the mainland next June. Rather than fill the inlet system with gas from what is basically a carbie, SGI integrates with the OBD system with its own ECU and has dedicated injectors.

Sequential Gas Injection by Prins, Tartarini and others is the way to go with the LR and many other motors, and offers good economy, driveability and power, all at some expense over the usual gas conversion (not recommended for Discos anyway).

I've had gas on two cars (VK COmmodore and International Scout) and while it has its issues I'd be happy to go that route again. Dual fuel is essential for me, dedicated gas setups are actually cheaper than dual fuel but a pain in the boondocks.

Luke Middleton
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 07:33 pm, by: Luke Middleton (Spook)

Iv'e been doing some work for Manildra the last week.
They have a Hyundai and a Falcon running on E85 as promo vehicles.
(85% ethanol - 15% unleaded)
After chatting with them, they reckon that all that was done was to change any rubber fuel lines to an avgas grade fuel line.

Lynden Phillips
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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 09:30 pm, by: Lynden Phillips (Malicia)

Not A soarer but Celsior, LPG Injection. Still researching into my conversion but will be converting very soon now.

Benjamin Burgess
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Friday, August 25, 2006 - 01:31 pm, by: Benjamin Burgess (Jampac)

LPG injection (liquid injection compared to gas of older carbie system) is the only way to go if you do move to it, however it doesn't work currently on turbo cars as there is no LPG rising rate regs for use with LPG injectors. Even if there was i'd still be very problemic to get working. The problem also is LPG injection system are still very expensive compared to older carbie based LPG mixers which do work in turbo applications, but in reality, their rubbish. Cabbies only put up with them due to the cost reduction in fuel, other than that, their unrelieable as all hell.

You have the other problem of LPG fuel being its seasonal, were the octane rating varies from day to day. Due to this you'd have to tune very conservatively.

Also with every man and his dog now trying to get a LPG system fitted to his/her falcondore, good luck with fitting to a non standard lpg car.

Mike Triggs
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Friday, August 25, 2006 - 04:49 pm, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

Liquid injection of LPG is actually different to Sequential Gas Injection. The subsidy would certainly make it worthwhile even at low kms annually- especially in WA where they add another $1000 to the subsidy. The gas carbie system is a dud on modern injected motors IMHO (especially after living with it for several years on a VK Commodore- backfire problems).

As for the cost of gas, much of it in rural areas is the high cost of transport. Years ago I did a trip in the VK to Alice Springs- the price varied according to how far from the delivery point the service station was. The tankers are dedicated to LPG and can carry nothing else. For example, researching WA prices, theirs are the highest in Au because it originates in Melbourne. In Exmouth it's around 95cpl while just down the road it's 75cpl (on the coastal highway). Exmouth is way up a peninsula, the the truck has to make a trip out of the way to refill the suppliers there.

On the way from Sydney to Broken Hill on the VK trip, it was about 30cpl in Sydney, 38cpl in Dubbo and 55c in Cobar. Wilcannia was 62cpl while it dropped back to 44c in B Hill. From Broken Hill it got even cheaper- all the way to Port Augusta was 36cpl, because B Hill and the rest supplied from Adelaide. Melbourne has always had the cheapest prices because it's the closest place to the Bass Strait oilfields where most of our LPG originates.

Daniel Clarke
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Friday, August 25, 2006 - 09:15 pm, by: Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain)

Ok, The Hardest thing about LPG on street cars is tuning for Part throttle response and smoothness in power delivery like an INjection setup.

Thats why FORD and other companies are trying to develop LPG injection systems. Because LPG is run at Higher Line Pressures, The PSI load for Normal Petrol injectors is Way to high, thus they cannot be used. ONE major problem with LPG is its tuned from 1 single unit similar to an old Carby.

That explains why some Fast boats use it, and some fast Cars. As long as they can Tune it for Idle, Stall Speed and Full thorttle runs, they dont have to worry about how nice it is to drive everyday Like we do, or the family does.

Damian Ware
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 09:06 am, by: Damian Ware (Frozenpod)

Humm...

Interesting, I thought that the new gas injection systems which are coming out would solve all these problems.

All my parents cars have alway been on gas and they have run fine. Much cheaper than running on petrol particularly when you do 50xxxkm a year.

I would do a conversion on my TT if I could find someone that would do a good job at a reasonable price.

Mike Triggs
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 04:17 pm, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

Damian Ware wrote on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 09:06 am:
Interesting, I thought that the new gas injection systems which are coming out would solve all these problems.

As far as I'm aware, they do, Damian. I know "carbie" LPG fitment isn't recommended for Discovery 2, while SGI is. It costs somewhat more than the old-fashioned LPG setups, I believe. As for whether it would work on a turbo car, you'd have to talk to the experts- Parnell's are down your way.

Ben Kelly
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 06:10 pm, by: Ben Kelly (Ace)

as if this subject needs another post:
i previously owned an el falcon with gas conversion through the carby. It was an with great pleasure that i would pay my $20 at the counter while others where standing there with fifties or hundreds. My thoughts are: The current total tax for petrol is around 49-52cents per litre depending on price (part of it is the gst). My understanding is that there is a current negative tax on lpg which will be removed in the future. Petrol prices seem to be relatively inelastic (economically speaking)ie. they are greatly subjected to supply while demand has almost zero effect on price (its almost stable-ie we are pretty much hostage to small changes in supply). Australia has an excess supply of LPG which is exported at relatively high prices. The amount of the excess is such that even if a large number of motorists converted to lpg the demand would still be fairly low. Of course LPG usage is around 30% greater than petrol. Overall i'm thinking that its a good deal esp. with the subsidy. My option would be to install a tank in the spare wheel well. Please does ANYONE know of a place to get this done well in NSW?

Mike Triggs
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 08:12 pm, by: Mike Triggs (Mikeandimah)

Another one

Try: http://www.lpgaustralia.com.au/

They have an installer and service station locator. Excellent stuff. You can type in the suburb or postcode and get all installers in a 25km or so radius, and all lpg sellers between two points- with side trips.

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