Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:56 am, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
The first thread seems as if Steven is waiting to hear from you. The problem is of course that once it goes to PM and email nobody has any idea of what has happened since.
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 08:30 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Pen, I have also sent some PM's to people with no response. Is it possible that they have simply not received them, it is possilbe I guess that they have not recognised them in there email inbox.
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 01:47 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
It's rare for PM's not to get delivered. Hotmail can be unreliable however, sometimes taking a few days to accept mail, occasionally they time out. Most likely cause is erroneous junk filters.
I have occasionally thought about not allowing users to sign up using Hotmail for this reason, as their are plenty of other free mail systems available.
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 05:31 pm, by: Ollie Ernst(Oli_g)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "Make it a condition of the For Sales to have the sale go to the first person to post I'LL TAKE IT or equivalent". This is the umpteenth time a sale has been left uncertain because it's all done "behind closed doors" via PMs etc.
Whoever is first to post on the Sale thread that they'll take it, should have first option to buy the item unless for some reason they are unable to close the deal to the seller's satisfaction. That avoids a lot of the bullshi.t backdoor trading with people receiving higher offers via email and coming back claiming they got an email from Joe Blow just before the genuine buyer posted that they'd take the item.
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 05:56 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
The PM's I have sent are almost always sent at the request of the seller.
I have used hotmail for many years and I have never had a problem with it, I don't use the junk mail filter as it is only required if you look up porn sites.
Anthony Matthews Tinkerer Western Australia Soarer GT Limited V8
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 06:26 pm, by: Anthony Matthews(Gajet)
Even though I am pretty much a newbie around here, I have had two people flake out on me (both were prolific members of the website) Both times after a couple of successful e-mails back and forth, suddenly they were not returning mail and I ended up just finding the item elsewhere. That said, I have bought 3 or 4 times off other members and all went smoothly. I think the "I haven't received any PMs" line wears a bit thin and sometimes means more like "I'm too busy/lazy and can't be bothered". Why offer something for sale if you don't want to do the leg work?
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 06:44 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Ollie, it's always going to be a problem trying to enforce good behaviour.
An option would be to disable PM's etc, but then that penalises 99% of the good users for the 1% that let the rest down.
In this case, Steven Vella hasn't logged in since 26/08/06 so wouldn't have seen this thread, and may not anyway unless he looks for it. It would probably be a good idea for Tai to post a reminder on the original thread in case it has just been overlooked.
Similarly with the second thread, posting a reminder there would be a very good idea rather than just letting it sit for weeks then wondering what happened.
I have no desire to become any sort of broker for deals and while I will ban people that have obviously played dirty, it's not fair to dump on unresolved issues or ones where we only have one side of the tale.
We don't actually know that the mats have been sold to someone else at this point, they might have been overlooked and just sitting there.
We could however, make it a rule not to post either email addresses or phone numbers on buy/sell posts to at least keep non-members from going behind the scenes. In which case, offending posts won't have the email address or phone number edited out, they will just be deleted as soon as a Mod sees them.
Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:04 pm, by: Ben Dowdell(Ben)
make it a rule that the vendor must provide more info than just product description and price. email, sms, pm's etc are all slow and unreliable for a myriad of reasons.
i would suggest a phone number from the vendor is the best way a person can get in touch directly to facilitate a successful sale. (yes they can still screen calls etc) however as an astute purchaser, over the phone, you can at least ask if anyone else has made an offer, find out where you are on the list if the prospective purchaser proceeding you fails to purchase etc. Qualification of vendor and purchaser are a reciprocal process for successful sales.
i too have been burnt from people on here and its disappointing to say the least, especially when these people are held in high regard here & elsewhere.
we are a club for the greater good of many, no one individual(s).
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:13 am, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Really, there aren't many ways to resolve this except to have it all happen on the forum for all to see.
Example. Fred Nerks advertises an LSD for $500, gets some quick offers to buy, then gets a phone call offering him $700. It's so easy to say "he rang first" when the truth is that he wasn't first, but offered a higher price.
Because of PM's, email, SMS, phone calls, whatever, there is no way that anyone can really know what went on.
However, if email address and phone numbers were banned from display, then initial contact would have to be via the forum where there would be a public record of who spoke first.
If someone sent a PM without posting on the forum, then bad luck.
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:50 am, by: Phil Gibson(Sciflyer)
Sounds like a good idea, it does rely a bit on the original poster putting enough info in so people dont have to ask 5000 questions about the item in question.
Also, one point to consider is would it be fair to sell an item to someone who can pay cash and pick-up rather than someone from interstate who may have posted first?
I think most sellers would need to say whether local buyers get preference over interstate ones
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 01:51 am, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
OK, so if the poster doesn't have enough information, hopefully he will only then have to post it once in answer to a question rather than have to answer 5000 emails.
Any poster has the right to impose fair conditions on a sale, eg local only.
The biggest problem will be getting people to read any sort of rules and use them with common sense. The existing buy/sell rules are in Bold Red right in your face when you go to start a new buy/sell thread, yet people still ignore them.
My bet is that I will be kept busy deleting posts with email/phone information then getting lots of "WTF happened to my post?" emails.
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 08:22 am, by: Adam Lonergan(Alchemistal)
I see the forum for sale section as nothing more than a location for people to post up information on items for sale. Having the price(s) included certainly makes it easier for everybody. There is no real difference between it and the classifieds in a newspaper or online. News corporation doesn't sort out problems between buyers and seller does it! It's really up to the two parties to arrange everything entirely external to the forum. I for one am a firm believer in the seller having the final say. I am always busy and travelling so if I can not come to an agreement with the seller regarding timing, payment, delivery or whatever I just accept that and keep looking. People on here often have better things to do than arrange quotes for couriers and answer questions from lazy buyers who should just do a quick internet search. If a seller gets two offers and one is local pick-up for cash (possibly even a handful of dollars less) they should have the right to choose. Price and the timing of the offer should certainly should not be everything. Ease of transaction, repeat business and clearance of funds are as important for many people. I would even deal with someone new just to meet them and have a look at there car!
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 08:31 am, by: Tai Johnsen(Privatejohnsen)
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies. I sent off reminders to Steve and Hayden.
Steve does indeed still have them and I think he was just waiting for me contact him, so no problems there, sorry for doubting you Steve.
No replies from Hayden from about the last 3 emails. We were talking back and fourth for a bit trying to organise a pickup and then nothing.. Hopefully he will come through in the end.
I think most people have good intentions when selling stuff on the forum but sometimes it just goes pear shaped. I have no problems with the site, I was just having a good 'ol whinge because i staked out the forums for weeks on end looking to score a full set of mats, and it was looking like it was going to be alot of effort for nothing.
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 08:46 am, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
quote:
There is no real difference between it and the classifieds in a newspaper or online.
Yes there is. Classifieds are paid for significant items. This is a forum where the underlying presumptions are (or used to be) that
"payment" is in the form of assistance or interaction with other members; and
good standing and good faith are presumed based on the "knowledge" people have about you
Further, the forum has no controls to manage any sort of auction process for probity.
Therefore, to maintain the reputation of the forum it is important to have rules which constrain the sale (fixed price, first buyer wins) and avoid a lot of the ethical problems. If you, as seller, do not like the rules then there are sellitfast, eBay or other selling media.
I favour strict application of the rules about "established members", fixed price and first poster (no other mechanism) wins. I also favour that if these rules are flouted or create too much work for Peter that the selling area be scrapped entirely.
This means also that I disagree with Adam about freedoms of the seller, insofar as they should be entitled to use this site.
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 09:19 am, by: Adam Lonergan(Alchemistal)
David,
I in no way want to appear rude or make it look like I'm am trying to bend the rules which Peter and others have set out. God knows they probably deal with more problems than I can fathom, but as far as I understand after reading
Peter Nitschke wrote on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 01:51 am:
The existing buy/sell rules are in Bold Red right in your face when you go to start a new buy/sell thread,
(I have never sold anything on here yet)
and the "Rules and Policy" written by Peter I see no reason why the first poster has to win a fixed price auction. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I am in favour of rigid rules if they prevent work for mods however a more fluid system allows better value trading for both buyer and seller in my opinion. Buyers and sellers need to be able to sort out there own problems, after all we are all responsible enough to drive a car, I would think we could sort out a simple transaction here and there.
The only time I would contact a mod with a trading problem would be to ask them to consider placing a warning to other members not to deal with a particular member/person/supplier etc. This could result in the occasional suspension or ban also I guess. A mod has no legal power to get my money back or make a seller sell the item to me. As far as I see it a warning then a suspension then a ban is the only power they have.
People should leave the moderators alone as much as possible and respect the time, effort and money they put into this community.
So if we are going to sell things, why don't we support importlister.com as he does support the club and gives us free listings too. (No Ebay fee's). Then it is up to the people to buy it or bid for it. Then it is fair to every one and this would stop the PM's, SMS, Phone calls. Plus for the seller he can try to get a fair price and the buyers get a fair chance of getting it. Just my 2 cents worth.
Anthony Matthews Tinkerer Western Australia Soarer GT Limited V8
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 09:53 am, by: Anthony Matthews(Gajet)
This site DOES carry with it a good reputation and as such established members hopefully will do the right thing.
Adam Lonergan wrote on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 09:19 am:
I see no reason why the first poster has to win a fixed price auction.
Yes there is. If you want to auction something, that's what eBay is for. A "fixed price" anything is not an auction. If your asking price is $200, then the sale price is $200! I would think that's a matter of personal integrity. I have seen quite a few members ask for opinions on how much something is worth. So if you're not sure how much to ask for, get opinions first. There may be lazy buyers, but there are also lazy sellers too!
Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 10:38 am, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
Adam, I did not infer that you were being rude at all, and please take no offence from anything I said
In general, I think Colin and Anthony have just put the positions well. I was saying that the site does not have mechanisms to manage the problems which will arise, and have arisen, when people switch deals or do not follow through. Importlister (sellitfast) is there for any deal where you do not feel comfortable to stand by a fixed price and sell to the first buyer.
As a solution, anything even slightly vague posted here should be removed with a polite note to the poster to go to importlister, and Peter's suggested rules about no phone numbers or email addresses should be enforced. However, to cater for those who fear importlister is less well-read than this site, it might be permitted to post (once) here that you have put something up there.