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David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 359
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 09:30 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the last few days I have been looking at a real DSLR to replace my venerable Canon AE1 and a little Minolta digi-thingy. Picking the EOS20D was not hard but my real quandary is lens. I remembered there was this snippet of discussion between Jason, Daina and Simon after the KV cruise.
http://soarercentral.com/alsc-forum/messages/180/45054.html

Promise I have already been trawling photographic sites (hence my lack of presence here for a couple of days) but I am still interested in your views on Canon prime and zoom lens, and their consumer vs L series. Did you get those L's you were after Jason? If so, how do you feel about them now? Did you go F4 or F2.8 in the 70-200?
Simon Triantafillou
TryHard
Soarer Turbo

Posts: 149
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 11:08 am, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How "into" the photography will you be getting David ?
Canon L series lenses are absolutely fantastic, but price justification can be quite hard.

Prime lenses are superior to zoom lenses, but you will be limited to the types of pictures you take, as there is no zoom adjustment, so it can be hard composing a photo if you aren't in the right position (ie. too close/far away)
David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 366
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 04:00 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The "into" question ought to be easy for me to answer but there is still a problem currently nagging me. I am wholly amateur (a tinkerer you might say) and take them for my own pleasure or records. I am pretty much resolved on zoom for the convenience when walking around but the consumer ones in Canon brand (which I want) are all f4 or worse e.g. the 17-85 is f4-5.6 and the 70-300 DO zoom is the same. I often take in comparatively low light outdoors in the evening or just walking in light rain (your choices are restricted when you travel). I prefer not to use a flash indoors, and also take some action or risk of movement - a bit of hockey, or just a bird or a cat (preferably not together).

Image Stabilisation solves low light and indoor problems but not when the subject moves. Also, I read that focus is both faster and more accurate with f2.8, that the camera actually senses that lens capability and modifies its focussing mode. Final thing pushing me in the L direction is that I can use them with any fancier body I may one day buy.

Countering all those slim arguments are the facts I should have no problems with non-L image quality in my usage, and that L's weight is measured in kilograms rather than grams -- I saw Jason's 24-70 today.

If I go consumer it will be the 17-85 and 70-300 DO. If I go L then the 24-70 and 70-200 IS select themselves and at the wide end either a 17-40 (a last bit of economy and still fairly general purpose, being effectively 27-64) or a 10-22. For anything I take at that end, I think f4 would do fine.

Is the vaunted image clarity and colour of an L noticeable to a non-professional? What to you make of my arguments about one f-stop? I may be unduly influenced there that there are many shots I have lost with the AE1 because the f4.5 zoom I use on it just is not fast enough and I can have trouble [manually] focussing in low light.

I mentioned prime mainly because one option appeared to be to buy the L 70-200 but go with the 17-85 and a prime 50mm f1.8 (or maybe 35mm for effective 50) for indoors. That would save some money and weight.
Jason Kingsmill
TryHard
UZZ31 Soarer V8

Posts: 125
Reg: 07-2005

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Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 11:24 pm, by:  Jason Kingsmill (Jason_k) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David - the wider apertures don't necessarily make it faster autofocus, but certainly make it more accurate. Also really helps the lenses ability to focus in low-light conditions.

When we spoke today, I should have mentioned the Sigma 24-70 f/2.8

Much cheaper, but many people rate them pretty good.

I think I mentioned another site for gear reviews aswell as a photography forum:
www.fredmiranda.com

Great site.

That's about as much detail as I can get into at nearly midnight after sleeping a whole 3.5 hours in the last 2 days, and 1400km later...
David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 378
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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 07:21 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jason. Glad to hear you made it back safely. Having to respond to Simon's question really helped me sort out my thinking as well (thanks S). Analogous to not fitting a supercharger to my car because it already does what I want and there are disadvantages to going further, there are limits to what I really need here, but nor will I simply be rock-stock. I will probably end up with a small mix of lens, working up as far as I need to go.

These are the web sites I was using. You mentioned the first as well:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/

Is this the forum site you are on?
http://photography-on-the.net/
Simon Triantafillou
TryHard
Soarer Turbo

Posts: 152
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 01:51 pm, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Digital Picture is a fantastic place to compare L series lenses and their capability.
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Canon-L-Lens-Series.aspx

Comparison shots and what appears to be unbiased opinion make it a good reference site.

You must also bear in mind the reduced depth of field when taking photos in a larger aperture (ie. 2.8) as you will have limited range of focus. This is good for certain photos, but not all.
David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 382
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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 05:47 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK guys, I am going with the 24-70 f/2.8L as my main lens where most of the shots will be taken and a 70-300 f/4 DO for long range stuff, because it is much lighter and more compact than an L lens in the same range, not to mention a dung load cheaper, but seems to have very good quality compared with, say, a 90-300. At the wide end I am still dithering over the 10-22 and the 17-40L which are about the same price. The first gives me greater width of course but the overlap of the 17-40 with the 24-70 is not a waste because, walking around, it is pretty likely that the same lens will serve for the next photo as the last. The 10-22 seems more of a distinct creative lens. I am mulling over that one because I have the deal I want on the body and main lens so there is less of a hurry now.

That site told me a lot about the L's thanks and his articles on lens selection for types of photos were good too. I will take a closer look at the photos as well, partly to look at what was used at the wide end to take the sorts of shots that interest me.
Jason Kingsmill
TryHard
UZZ31 Soarer V8

Posts: 127
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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 06:18 pm, by:  Jason Kingsmill (Jason_k) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good choice David.

You will be happy with the quality, that's for sure.

I've decided I am definately gonna go for the 10-22.
I am much more of a landscape person myself, so the extra width just puts a whole new angle on things (excuse the pun). That is the biggest drawback with the 24-70 - just not wide enough for a walkaround lens to suit my style.

I would just mention about using the inbuilt flash with the 24-70, you will probably get a dark spot on the bottom of the images where the lens cuts the light from the flash when shooting wide.

I know the 20D was modified with a taller flash to help avoid this, but I don't know how successful it was...
It's really a problem with my 300D, as anything under about 35mm causes this problem.

Looks like you'll need a 580EX flash also!
David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 385
Reg: 07-2005

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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 07:42 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bought the camera today. They did not have the lens in stock so they lent me a 17-85 on their "exchange within 45 days" policy so I just exchange it when the real one comes in. I will test the flash with the 24-70 in a week or so and let you know.

Oh no! I haven't budgetted for the 580. I normally try to avoid flash, probably because I was always too er parsimonious to buy a decent one for the old camera.

Despite the purchase, the 10-22 vs 17-40 question is still open, as I replied to Simon.
Simon Triantafillou
TryHard
Soarer Turbo

Posts: 155
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 09:16 am, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

17-40 f4.0L is a fantastic lens and will be my next purchase. My brother has one, and I frequently borrow it as my "everyday" lens, as most of my photography is within that range.

The 16-40 f2.8L would be great, but the increased cost I just can't justify (yet!).
David Vaughan
TryHard
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)

Posts: 393
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:45 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is that on a digital body (1.6 crop)?
Simon Triantafillou
TryHard
Soarer Turbo

Posts: 156
Reg: 07-2005

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:16 am, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Canon EOS 300D or 20D (depending which camera I use) with a 1.6x focal length multiplier.

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