Soarer Central: Archive through February 01, 2007

Soarer Central Off-Topic Plasma Advice Archive through February 01, 2007

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Sam Schreck
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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 09:31 pm, by: Sam Schreck (Schreck300)

Hey all!
I was hoping someone may be able to offer some advice. I've been holding off for years now - glad I did too. Finally, it's come down to a decision between the Samsung and LG 50" plasmas. Both have brilliant picture quality. Though the Samsung picture is a little better than the LG. The LG has a built in 250 gig harddrive and twin HD tuners. The Samsung misses out on that, however it does have a built in SD tuner and I already have a high-def box and HDD/DVD recorder. I can get either one for $3,500.00
If anyone has any knowledge of either of these units - I'd love some feedback.

http://au.lge.com/md/product/prodcategorylist.do?actType=detail&currPage=1&categoryId=1000000282&par entCategoryId=1000000281&categoryLevel=4&productId=1100001121
and this one
http://www.samsung.com/au/products/tv/plasmatv/ps_50q7hd.asp

Cheers.

Nayr Civoknar
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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 10:56 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

hmmm in general we have had a few problems with the LG sets at work.... sounds being out of sync to the picture, and the $10k 60" just stopped working one day and LG needed to come pick it up.

personally id go with the samsung, i myself have 2 sammy LCDs and they are great

its a shame youre not in Vic, as the markup of sammy and LG units are pretty big, and i can do pretty good prices

Will Adams
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:09 am, by: Will Adams (Draco)

Sam I have heard good and bad with plasma. They don't last as long as the old CRT's. From some reports I heard the TV is only going to last you maybe 2 - 3 years before it has to be replaced or repaired. That and some of the earlier models left residual burns on the screen (i.e. if you paused a DVD for too long). Saw it once and turned me off plasma straight away.

Given that and Laser-TV will be coming out sometime in the next year which will drive prices of the plasma's down even more.

Matthew Sharpe
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 07:47 am, by: Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt)

Samsung most definitely, they make good stuff and are always up with the leading edge... but I'd ditch Plasma and go for LCD - Philips or Samsung, even though its a big price hike, its much better technology, especially if you are planning not to upgrade for a number of years. Plasmas do last the distance now days (10,000 + hours is probably more than 10 years viewing for most people) but screen burn is still an issue - and you can leave an LCD going 24/7 for years where a Plasma would die from such use. LCD issues like refresh interval etc are a thing of the past now.

Tai Johnsen
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 09:11 am, by: Tai Johnsen (Privatejohnsen)

I agree, i'd go a Samsung LCD..

I have seen plasmas quoting 60,000hrs now..

Daniel Czechowski
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 11:04 am, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Sam, don't buy a plasma. Go for LCD, it has been around for much much longer, and is more reliable technology. Few months ago I was going to get a plasma but decided to get this Samsung LCD instead:

http://www.samsung.com/au/products/tv/lcdtv/la46f71b.asp

Used to be $6.5K, but only two days ago I saw one in Myer on sale for $4999. The good thing about this TV is the super duper high resolution, 1920 x 1080. The 50" Samsung plasma you got there looks like it is only a grand cheaper than my LCD. Even though it is a bit smaller, the image quality is just superb. Just wait till Bluerays will be more popular you will enjoy it heaps more on a higher resolution 46" than a lower resolution 50" trust me :-)

And yeah, happy with my Samsung TV, no issues at all.

If I may say something about LG... I will never buy anything from LG ever! I had the following LG products:
- mobile phone
- microwave oven
- fridge
- DVD player
Out of the above products, only the fridge has no issues. The phone was just •••••• full of software bugs. Microwave oven is essentially fine, except the buttons start coming off after two months. We got an LG microwave in the office too, same thing. DVD player just died. SO yeah, I suggest you stay away from LG, especially LG plasmas as you got two things going wrong for you, the brand name and the plasma technology's lack of reliability

Nayr Civoknar
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:10 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

i love how every forum has un educated people telling others not to buy plasma because of burn in, and so called "lack of reliability"

this isnt the year 1999 any more

try to find an affordable LCD with a contrast ratio that is as high as 10,000:1 that will give you the same picture as a plasma and youll be up for big $$$

only reason why i have 2 lcds are because you cant get a plasma in 20" or 32".... if i wanted something bigger it would definately be plasma

Daniel Czechowski
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:10 pm:
i love how every forum has un educated people telling others not to buy plasma because of burn in, and so called "lack of reliability" this isnt the year 1999 any more

try to find an affordable LCD with a contrast ratio that is as high as 10,000:1 that will give you the same picture as a plasma and youll be up for big $$$

only reason why i have 2 lcds are because you cant get a plasma in 20" or 32".... if i wanted something bigger it would definately be plasma

Nayr...

I personally know of two people who bought a plasma, one in 2004, and one in early 2006. Both had to take theirs for repairs because they just died. And I'd imagine there wouldn't be many plasmas around that were made in 1999 either. All those burn in issues are still there, no matter what the salesman will tell you. Heck, look into any plasma user manual sold today and there is a warning in there about not displaying still pictures for an extended period of time. Read in between the lines here, what does it mean? Burn in on plasmas is still an issue, as stated by the manufacturers themselves!

As far as picture quality goes, well, I can tell apart a plasma standing next to an LCD, coz the plasma has this washed out crappy image all the time. LCD's are more expensive for a reason! Try to find a true HD plasma (I mean 1080p variety, not piss weak 1080i) is there one? Not last time I checked. When I was looking at buying one I only saw LCDs with true high definition panels. High contrast is not everything (mine is 6000:1 and it looks beautiful). Very high resolution will make all the difference as well.

Your argument is based on no factual information apart from "no it's not", and lower cost. Sure they are cheaper than LCD, but like I said, there is a reason for that. The usual you-pay-for-what-you-get principle is very live and kicking here.

Miles Baker
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:52 pm, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Pioneer, Hitachi (possibly not in Australia), Panasonic, Samsung, Sony (not in Australia I don't think) sell 1080 plasmas.

And if you think there is anything wrong with 1080i, you need to do more research into how it actually works. THAT is a very commonly held misconception.

I don't like plasma either, never have. I'm not that fond of LCD though either. Before you ask, I own a Sony Pearl which is a *reflective* 3 chip LCD (SXRD) 1080p and have many different input sources. 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

Daniel Czechowski
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 02:59 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:52 pm:
Pioneer, Hitachi (possibly not in Australia), Panasonic, Samsung, Sony (not in Australia I don't think) sell 1080 plasmas.

1080p or 1080i?? There's plenty of 1080i plasmas out there I know, the usual 1300 x 700 or whatnot. I'm talking about the full HD resolution though.

Nothing wrong with 1080i of course as it is still nice, but there's a huge difference in quality between 1080i and 1080p. Not much you can watch at the moment with 1080p, not for another year and a half until bluerays and stuff become more common. But if you think about it, 1080p will become the standard in tv resolution in the near future. You usually buy a TV for 5 years, perhaps even longer. You'll miss out on heaps by the time you replace to a newer tv. I just look at it from a long term point of view that's all. Why buy something that can only serve you well now, if you can get something that will do a good job in the future also

Oh, another good point about Samsung, they give 3 years manufacturing warranty as standard. It's less with some other brands.

Nayr Civoknar
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 03:56 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm:
I personally know of two people who bought a plasma, one in 2004, and one in early 2006. Both had to take theirs for repairs because they just died.

surely you cant think that nothing ever goes wrong with LCD sets? wow 2 people? in a 2 year span? plasma sure seems doomed now

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm:
As far as picture quality goes, well, I can tell apart a plasma standing next to an LCD, coz the plasma has this washed out crappy image all the time

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm:
Your argument is based on no factual information apart from "no it's not", and lower cost

so i guess going to technology expos and product knowledge nights with work have told me nothing, what a waste!

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm:
Try to find a true HD plasma (I mean 1080p variety, not piss weak 1080i) is there one? Not last time I checked.

http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/home_entertainment/plasma_display_panel/PDP5000EX/index.html

oops

well with that link i guess youre right, when you pay $11,000 for a quality plasma, you do get what you pay for

including a 5 year warranty and home installation

Nayr Civoknar
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:10 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

also maybe have a read through this

http://www.pioneer.com.au/files/pdf/Plasma_LCD_TV_whitepaper.pdf

probably the most important thing for you though when buying one is WHAT YOU LIKE THE LOOK OF. what model will suit your needs, and what you feel is the best looking picture, wether it be LCD or plasma.

as long as youre happy with what you buy in the end, is all that matters. not what people on the intenet feel about certain technologies

Miles Baker
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:11 pm, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Your reply is full of errors. You need to research more.

"1080i" does not imply a resolution of "1300 x 700 or whatnot". 1080i is a signal with frames consisting of 1920x1080, but interlaced into twice as many fields of 1920x540. 1080p is half as many full frames of 1920x1080. A "1080i" display with lower resolution than 1920x1080 is not a 1080 native display. It is downsampling the 1920x1080 signal to its native resolution. They say it displays a 1080i signal, but it's kind of a half truth.

True 1080 native displays will take a 1080i signal and reassemble it into half as many full 1080p frames. The result is the same bandwidth image as a 1080p signal. Correspondingly, 1080i sources are usually taking a 1920x1080 frame and dividing it into twice as many 1920x540 fields. This is the situation that is causing confusion with HDDVD and BluRay in the US. Sony are spreading lies that the HDDVD is "crappy 1080i" because the Toshiba player is only outputting 1080i. However the display reassembles the fields into the same 1920x1080 frames as the BD player at 1080p.

Another thing to note is the 720p broadcast signals often look better, as the 1080p signals don't have enough bandwidth to transmit without considerable artefacting.

I currently watch FTA tv, xbox360 and soon PS3 at 1080, at a picture size of 150 inches. It looks great.

Daniel Czechowski
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:31 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Yeah ok, maybe I wasn't looking that well at plasmas. There were absolutely no true HD plasmas in the many stores I went to. Still at 11K it is way too pricey for a 50" plasma! Talk about profiting off a best-plasma award, probably coz there ain;t too many anyway! There's a Sony true HD 52" LCD with an inbuilt tuner (as opposed to that one) for way less than that. Can't post a link to it off the site coz it doesn't link up direct, but model # is KDL52X2000.

5 years on that plasma is an extended warranty already included in the price (according to the website), after all you gotta get some value for 11K. I could have gotten an extended warranty on mine as well to bring it up to a total of 7 years for an extra 200 bucks, what's your point?

Home installation... yeah ok like I cannot set my own colours the way I like and plug the cables in, again at 11K I'd expect that set to come delivered in a limo with an exotic fruit basket on top of that. Oops, sorry, mine only came in a courier van, so much worse then.

And with burn in issues, I assume this one might not have it as bad (I'd download the manual and see if I cbf'ed) but you can't claim that all plasmas don't have that problem because they certainly do. Why would they write that in the manuals even today if it wasn't the case??? Could be less so than 5 years ago, yet it still is there!

Don't get me wrong, yeah it is a quality plasma, I'd still choose that Sony LCD over this Pioneer plasma anyday though...

Nayr Civoknar
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

you think 11k is pricey for a 50" 1080p that comes with all the bells and whistles?

try the sharp 60" 720p LCD for $26k that we were selling the other month

who offers up to 7 years warranty? most retailers offer you an extra 2 or 3 years, and while were on the topic of reading small print, try reading the extended warranty plans on one of those packs and youll see how poor it is compared to a proper factory warranty.

home installation gives you the option of a stand or having it mounted on the wall with all cables hidden. and what if you damage your set trying to mount it on the wall? seems good that pioneer offer it

ok burn in can still happen if youre an idiot and leave a dvd on pause for a whole day, but its VERY hard to get it and as i mentioned there are special dvds that can get rid of the burn in if its not too bad. BUT ITS VERY HARD TO GET BURN IN THESE DAYS. they put it in the manual for the very stupid people.

The principal drawback of previous-generation plasma screens--the tendency of stationary images to burn in and produce permanent ghosting--has diminished greatly in newer products. NEC, for example, has developed technology to deal with the problem by moving stationary pixels just enough to prevent such burn-in

quote from a tech website, and the article dates back to 2002, so imagine the tech in an 06 plasma!

and my toshiba HD CRT tv has better picture quality than an LCD or plasma yet it can still suffer from burn in.

oh and another thing that plasma doesnt suffer from is response time.

but really i think the topic is now out of hand.

Sam should just go to as many retailers as possible and look at everything and then decide on what he likes the most. thats the best way

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:43 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Yeah Miles, I haven't looked into the 1080i vs 1080p technical stuff in greater detail, I mainly looked at the actual native resolution of the TV's, as in 1920 x 1080 and 1366 x 752 etc etc. I just assumed the 1080i was the lower one, my bad. Either way I was referring to the resolution itself, rather than 1080p/i stuff.

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:56 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
you think 11k is pricey for a 50" 1080p that comes with all the bells and whistles?

Yeah coz it's a plasma

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
who offers up to 7 years warranty? most retailers offer you an extra 2 or 3 years, and while were on the topic of reading small print, try reading the extended warranty plans on one of those packs and youll see how poor it is compared to a proper factory warranty.

I got that as a factory extended warranty, on top of my 3, which practically covers all that the 3 year standard one does, as far as I know at least

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
home installation gives you the option of a stand or having it mounted on the wall with all cables hidden. and what if you damage your set trying to mount it on the wall? seems good that pioneer offer it

I had exactly the same thing offered for a small sum too. And I'm sure others do also, nothing too extraordinary, all included in price of course which is what I was trying to get across.

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
The principal drawback of previous-generation plasma screens--the tendency of stationary images to burn in and produce permanent ghosting--has diminished greatly in newer products. NEC, for example, has developed technology to deal with the problem by moving stationary pixels just enough to prevent such burn-in

Right, that still does not much when it comes to having a watermark on the bottom corner of the screen now does it? Yeah the image might move a milimetre, you might avoid the burn in on each side of the watermark, what about the middle part, or the rest of the area that covers the watermark? It will still be displayed in that part of the screen, and it will still burn in. Or am I missing something?

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
and my toshiba HD CRT tv has better picture quality than an LCD or plasma yet it can still suffer from burn in.

Yes, better than LCD and plasma, which is why graphics designers still prefer to use them.

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:42 pm:
but really i think the topic is now out of hand.

Sam should just go to as many retailers as possible and look at everything and then decide on what he likes the most. thats the best way

Healthy debate is always errr... healthy lol! Yeah Sam, pick what you like!

Jeff Smith
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:57 pm, by: Jeff Smith (Mozzie)

If it's any help,I have an LG 81cm widescreen HD LCD.Had it for 2 years with no problems and It's mounted on the wall.I payed $3000 for it.

Nayr Civoknar
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:00 pm, by: Nayr Civoknar (Ryanonejay)

can i just ask where you purchased your set and warranty from?

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 04:31 pm:
Or am I missing something?

why would it only move the outside pixels? and this tech was 5 years old at the time...

and theres no need for debate when im always right, you should know that by now

Daniel Czechowski
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:13 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

I purchased it from a computer store, my dad's friend owns, not from any large stores or anything like that, although I did look everywhere. He gave me quite a good deal on it too (as in hardly any margin on top). I didn't buy the extended warranty, I was happy with the standard 3 years it came with.

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:00 pm:
why would it only move the outside pixels? and this tech was 5 years old at the time...

Ummm, let me explain what I mean. The big 7 logo for example, it's all greyish. Now you move that a tiny bit, the pixels or whatnot in the plasma screen that are in the middle of the 7, both when it is in normal position and when it is 'moved' will still be showing the same greyish colour, doesn't matter how much the TV moves the logo, certain pixels there will always be covered and displaying the same thing. What I meant by the edges being saved is that when you move it, the pixels at the very edge would switch off and not be covered by the logo.

Nayr Civoknar wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:00 pm:
and theres no need for debate when im always right, you should know that by now

Haha, I don't

Sam Schreck
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:37 pm, by: Sam Schreck (Schreck300)

Thanks for all that guys.
I have heard plenty of horror stories about LCD's too. Inside-out fractures and some simpler things like power supply issues, and so on. At the moment I have two 50" Toshiba rear-pros, so reducing my picture size by 4 + inches isn't something I'd be keen on doing. I love the look of both the LG and Samsung sets, though I would most likely take the Samsumg over the LG regardless. I'll have a look a the Samsung LA46F71BX. It looks as appealing aesthetically as the rest of Samsung's screens. I'll be upgrading to a 5 year warranty on anything I buy as well.

Regarding Lazer TVs: Aside from the media hype and claims that this wonderful technology will be released around Xmas 2007, I haven't been able to get one confirmation from multiple manufacturers that lazer will even be released within then next few years. I know that they may say this to an every-day consumer to ensure that the sales of their current stock continues - however I've been told this by people I'm in contact with, who work for these companies. I'd happily wait for lazer, if I know I'm not waisting my time?...

Is there anyone here that actually owns a Samsung plasma, or any brand for that matter - that can give me some feedback as well. Off hand, I can think of 6 friends who own plasmas. Two of them have had failures inside 12 months, which obviously aren't favorable odds. I don't however know anyone who owns an LCD above 20 - 22", and has it in their living room and not the computer room.
So I can't get any stats on LCD failures, or any other 1st hand feedback.

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:45 pm, by: Ollie Ernst (Oli_g)

Daniel.......Have they released an LCD yet that can display TRUE black? The reason I ask is that we have both an LCD (LG) and a Plasma (Panasonic) and in my opinion the plasma is the better TV as:

a) The plasma displays true blacks,which is important as we're into home theatre and in particularly Scifi and when it comes to dark scenes the best even the best LCDs we've seen can do (due to the way they're backlit) is a dark(ish) grey. That might not be very noticible in Harvey Norman or whatever but at home with low light levels it stands out like dogs balls.

b) The plasma does not suffer from problems when the action gets fast the way an LCD does. Have a look at an AFL match on an LCD and a Plasma side by side. With the camera panning quickly the picture distorts (particularly around the outer edges of the players) on even the best LCDs, as, while the refresh rates are getting much better, they (LCDs) still have some issues with fast motion (talk to gamers as to why they won't trade their CRT monitors for LCD - Same reason). Doesn't seem to be an issue on the plasma.

As for burn-in, while it apparently can be a problem, 5 months down the track and we've had no dramas at all so far.

As far as I can see, apart from a slightly higher resolution and the lower chance of burn-in, LCD has plenty of substantial downsides as well. Don't forget LCD screens are also more fragile, can suffer from pixels dying....

Plasmas are also not as susceptible to viewing angles, so if you're sitting "off-centre" the picture is likely to be less "washed out" on a plasma than on an LCD.

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 06:08 pm, by: Ollie Ernst (Oli_g)

Sorry Sam. Was typing my post while you submitted yours mate.

In answer to your question, we have a 106cm Panasonic HD Plasma, and an LG 80cm HD LCD. Both 5 months old and no issues with either (as you'd expect). Very happy with the Plasma. Reasonably happy with the LCD, apart from the stuff I mentioned in my earlier post. The only reason we got the LCD was that it was a better size for the bedroom than the smallest available plasma which was 106cm.

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 06:09 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Sam Schreck wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:37 pm:
I'll have a look a the Samsung LA46F71BX. It looks as appealing aesthetically as the rest of Samsung's screens.

It looks neat, it has that piano black glossy finish. Let us know what you think

Sam Schreck wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:37 pm:
I don't however know anyone who owns an LCD above 20 - 22", and has it in their living room and not the computer room.

You know me

If I wanna play somethin on the comp, I just bring my laptop over to the loungeroom.

Ollie Ernst wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:45 pm:
a) The plasma displays true blacks,which is important as we're into home theatre and in particularly Scifi and when it comes to dark scenes the best even the best LCDs we've seen can do (due to the way they're backlit) is a dark(ish) grey. That might not be very noticible in Harvey Norman or whatever but at home with low light levels it stands out like dogs balls.

Yeah it is not as black as CRT. I haven't actually seen a plasma in full dark so can't compare. But from my experience with the Samsung LA46F71BX, I've watched a few movies on it in pitch black and to be honest it wasn't that noticeable. Like it wasn't fully dark or anything, there was that bit of greyness which you can see, but it was no where near as annoying as maybe on some other screens. Mind you this is a top Samsung model tv...

Ollie Ernst wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:45 pm:
Plasmas are also not as susceptible to viewing angles, so if you're sitting "off-centre" the picture is likely to be less "washed out" on a plasma than on an LCD.

Haven't noticed on mine sorry. My house is like open plan, I can see my TV from the meals area as well, which is to the far right of the screen, and can comfortably watch it from that angle. Maybe some of the earlier ones were like that, but this one certainly isn't.

Overall there's pluses and minuses for both I guess. Lazer TV would be great but I wasn't willing to wait that long hehe.

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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 06:23 pm, by: Sam Schreck (Schreck300)

Yeah home cinema is my priority as well, Ollie.

I'll get them to put on a Sci-Fi, action and sports DVD and compare colours, blacks, sharpness, drag and anything else I can think of at the time. See which one takes my fancy the most and go from there.

At the end of the day - with 5 year 'in home' warranty (serviced by Maxtech in Canberra, who are just around the corner), unless I drop the bloody thing, there's no real reason to be anymore concerned than I was when I bought the rear-pros.
Screw it... I might even get one of each. HA!

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