Soarer Central: Archive through February 03, 2007

Soarer Central Off-Topic Plasma Advice Archive through February 03, 2007

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Shane Ilich
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 09:46 pm, by: Shane Ilich (Ferret)

We've had the LG 42" plasma with the inbuilt HD tuner for about 18 months now, without issues....until Australia Day morning.

I turned it on about 45 mins before the cricket started, as I had an Aussie Day BBQ/cricket viewing happening, was listening to [V] on foxtel as I moved stuff round the house, cleaned up, etc. Mate walked in, said "Dude, chuck your tv on, I wanna watch Fox" and I replied "but it IS on", he's like "umm, doesnt look like it".

Walked in, it was still on, but it had lost picture - sound was still fine. Swicthed from AV input to digital TV (ie aerial input), still same - changing channels worked, as sound would change, but no picture. Checked all connections etc, but to no avail. Disconnected from mains power and jumped on the net to see if there was some way of doing a reset or something, and discovered that its a semi-common problem with the LGs. Let it sit for half an hour or so, turned it back on, but still no picture.

Its still under warranty, so its been picked up and taken away for repair yesterday, guy said he will give the whole unit a once-over and freshen up anything that needs it while he's there, expect it back midway through next week.

Just thought I'd contribute my personal experience to the thread. Was mainly spewing on the day cos we couldnt watch the cricket, and another mate also bought his PS3 round that he'd got from the US, so we were all looking forward to having a bash on that.

We dont use our TV much more than any "normal" user would - less, if anything. It probably gets turned on about 4.30pm, and gets left running til about 10pm on weeknights. Weekends - well, some weekeneds in summer it might not get turned on til Sunday night to watch a movie, others it might run for 6-8 hours a day to watch the footy etc. Only used for general TV/Foxtel viewing, maybe 2 dvds a week, and the occasional couple of hours of PS2 action. And we have refrigerative aircon, with the plasma set up on top of a tv unit, away from the wall and not enclosed in anything at all - ie heat dissipation is not an issue (and this puppy DOES produce a fair bit of heat!).

Sam Schreck wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:37 pm:
Is there anyone here that actually owns a Samsung plasma, or any brand for that matter - that can give me some feedback as well. Off hand, I can think of 6 friends who own plasmas. Two of them have had failures inside 12 months, which obviously aren't favorable odds. I don't however know anyone who owns an LCD above 20 - 22", and has it in their living room and not the computer room.
So I can't get any stats on LCD failures, or any other 1st hand feedback.

So from this thread alone, I count 3 plasmas of various/unknown brands/models that have had failures, plus the 2 you know of. From asking around once ours lost picture, it's appearing that it IS a somewhat common occurrence - most people I've spoken too have a "oh, yeah, someone else I know had that happen to theirs too" story.

Not trying to put you off the plasma option, just making it known that the picture loss would appear to be somewhat of an issue. But, all of the stories I've heard anyways, it has been a warranty repair job, so no cost involved. Certainly a 3-5 year warranty would appear to be a worthwhile investment if it doesnt come standard.

Maurice Diggler
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:16 pm, by: Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice)

Daniel, you are comparing 1080p to 1080i? That's hardly fair to compare a progressive image to an interlaced one.

I own a 32" Samsung LCD with Component & HDMI inputs running at 720p and I think 720p sh1ts all over 1080i.

From my own eyes, 1080p isn't earth shattering, the difference for me is like upgrading from S-Video cables to Component, I doubt most people would even notice the difference.

Greg Nikitiuk
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Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 11:20 pm, by: Greg Nikitiuk (Jestr)

DLP FPJ is nice way to go for HT Sam.
screen up to 100" HD and all for less then $5K
You can then spend money on a decent sound system which will make your HT come alive.

Miles Baker
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:05 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Maurice,

Your tv isn't 1920x1080 is it? If not, of course you won't see any difference.

With good 1080 input on a 1920x1080 native display, trust me - you can tell the difference.

The important thing to note with 1080i and 1080p is they are both MOST OFTEN just two representations of the same 1080p signal, which is reassembled by the display into a 1080p image.

1920x1080 @ 25fps
1920x540 @ 50fps

The display just reassembles the 2 fields into each frame for the interlaced signal.

I recommend looking at projectors if you have a dark room and it suits your lifestyle. The Sony is about 6500-7000 for 1080 SXRD. There is a Mitsubishi 1080 for about 1000 less which is an LCD. Panasonic and Sanyo are bringing out 1080 models for 5-6k as well. The 720s are also remarkable value at 2000-2500.

Dean Carsen
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:27 am, by: Dean Carsen (Deano)

I had the same problem as Shane with a LG 42". It was one day out of warranty. I rang LG and they arranged to fix it through an agent the next day. Good service but I got the impression this is a problem with them.

Matthew Sharpe
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North Island
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:43 am, by: Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt)

Sam, I have a 32" Philips LCD in my lounge - its only a couple of months old, but so far I'm loving it.

Daniel Czechowski
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:32 am, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Maurice Diggler wrote on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:16 pm:
own a 32" Samsung LCD with Component & HDMI inputs running at 720p and I think 720p sh1ts all over 1080i.

From my own eyes, 1080p isn't earth shattering, the difference for me is like upgrading from S-Video cables to Component, I doubt most people would even notice the difference.

Wrong. Like what Miles said, you need a screen capable of displaying true HD image. You can't watch a video that is done in 1920 x 1080 resolution on a 1366 x 752 only capable screen, coz then the image is only compressed and shown as 1366 x 752. Similarly watching something made in 1366 x 752 on a screen only capable of handling 800 x 600 or whatever of course will make you think that "720p sh1ts all over 1080i". Simple logic. In fact there is a huge difference and the quality of the image is just stunning. You just need the source to be in that same high resolution as the TV in order to see it though. Playing 720i video on a 1080p screen will make it look sh|t indeed. When I plug in something with SD output into my TV, it looks really bad!

Daniel Czechowski
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:34 am, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Haha, looks like the curse of LG strikes a lot more people than I thought. Once again let me stress this: stay away from LG people!!!

Miles Baker
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:44 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Daniel Czechowski wrote on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:32 am:
Playing 720i video on a 1080p screen will make it look sh|t indeed

Not necessarily true either. The scaler in my projector does a hell of a job at this. Watching it next to a 720 projector, mine looks better - I put it down to higher quality components in the optics, and reduced screen-door because of the higher resolution and inherent high pixel fill of SXRD. Some of the higher end scalers are incredible these days. 720->1080 is also a relatively easy scale to do: 1080/720 = 1.5

Daniel Czechowski
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:02 am, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

I'm not talking about scaling Miles. You can scale anything to 10000 x 6000 or whatever, it will just make it look more and more pixelated. The simple fact is, an image transmitted at 752 x 500 (can never rememeber the exact numbers hahaha) only carries information for 752 pixels horizontal and 500 pixels vertical. Now you transmit information of 752 horizontal pixels to a screen that has 1920 pixels horizontal, you are effectively missing the information to cover the other 1168 pixels. So what happens then is the screen expands to fit? The image becomes pixelated, which is what makes it look sh|thouse in the first place. That's why SD signal looks a lot worse on a HD screen than on an SD screen. You get me?

Miles Baker
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:44 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

I know what you're saying, you just don't have all the information. And you ARE talking about scaling. Scaling is the process of taking a signal at one resolution and scaling it to suit a display at another.

The fact is, a 1080 monitor has smaller pixels at the same screen size. This means less screen door effect, and with good scaling, LESS pixelation. 1080 displays are also usually produced with higher quality optics and components. Modern scalers interpolate extremely well, and the result is an image that looks very very close to what the source would have looked like, photographed at the higher resolution, just smoothed a little. The maths to convert 720 to 1080, as I said, is very well researched, and the algorithms they use produce stunning results. have a look at the way scaling is performed, it is not just simple multiplication any more.

It doesn't look like sh!t. As I said, I have compared the same source material on my 1080 projector next to a 720 unit. Mine is more visually appealing. Whether that is because of the higher resolution, the smaller pixels, or the higher quality components I'm not sure.

I know all about this stuff. I have been involved in a considerable amount of work with video signals, and have owned more than one projector over the years, with scan convertors, line doublers etc. Give me a higher resolution display any day.

Daniel Czechowski
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 12:06 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Yeah ok. So you're saying an SD image on a HD screen will look the same as an SD image on an SD screen. I suppose that can be possible. It's hard to compare an SD image on a way smaller SD screen to a bigger screen, it will always be sort of stretched out...

Miles Baker wrote on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:44 am:
Modern scalers interpolate extremely well, and the result is an image that looks very very close to what the source would have looked like, photographed at the higher resolution, just smoothed a little.

Nah, still won't be as good as an original HD source no way. There's way too much missing information for the TV to make it up. Comparing 1920 vs 752, with 1168 pixels missing, the tv would have to make up 1.5 extra pixels for every 1 pixel of information it receives. That's just way too much I doubt it will look as good as a HD source image. At least not from what I've seen in the shops and stuff. And it took me good three weeks of looking around... 752 to 1366 may probably be fine though..

Miles Baker
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 02:44 pm, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

I'm not comparing smaller screens. Same size.

I'm NOT saying a 720 scaled to 1080 will look as good as an original 1080. Notice I said "close". What I AM saying is 720 scaled to 1080 and displayed on a 1080 monitor can look better than 720 displayed on a 720 monitor. Not the same. Better. It's the quality of the scaler that counts.

OK now you're numbers are a little off.
720p: 1280x720
1080p: 1920x1080

1080 is 1.5x the size horizontally and 1.5x vertically. It expands 10 pixels to 15 in each direction. The maths isn't bad and the algorithms for edge detection and anti aliasing are sweet these days.

I currently let the projector scale 720 source and it looks better than a 720 projector. I have also tried telling it to mask the 720 image in black - that is, only display 1280x720 pixels in the middle of the raster, then use the lens to increase that to the same physical size as before. The scaled version again looked better because of the smaller pixel size and the inherent smoothing. This test eliminates most of the "is it just the better optics in the 1080 projector".

High resolution displays are just better, as long as you have a good scaler inside. If not, use a media centre pc or buy an external scaler. It just looks better. Higher quality displays can also let you watch 24p sources at 24, 48, 72 or 96 Hz. No more motion artefacts on films.

Daniel Czechowski
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 03:44 pm, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Yeah I know, haha I can never rememeber any numbers (no idea how I became an accountant hahahaha).

Hey, so in the case of HDTV right, how it is not full HD, but the lower version, I need a good set top box with a good scaler to make it look better on the rey HD TV, or is it meant to be inside the TV. What do you mean outside scaler? Is it the actual device that outputs the source into the tv like a set top box/ Reason why I'm asking coz I'll be buying a new set top box so hoping for some recommendation.

Anthony Matthews
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 03:59 pm, by: Anthony Matthews (Gajet)

I have a Panasonic Viera plasma. I bought it in January 2006 and have (touch wood) had zero problems with it. It's allegedly HD output but I have no idea whether its 1080i or p. Nor do I care. It's a lovely big screen and the picture quality is beautiful to my naive eye. Does put out a lot of heat, but I don't stand next to it to watch, anyway.

A HUGE step up over my old Sony 68cm (although the sound quality on the Sony was better OOB as it had an inbuilt subwoofer) the plasma needs my Jensens to sound decent.

My 2c worth

Miles Baker
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:01 pm, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

honestly your best bet for tv these days is vista home with media centre. it's good and it records. you can make it scale however you want, and hdmi output is cheap. then you can add blu ray and hddvd to it later. in the long run it is cheaper, but you need to be a bit of a nerd to make it happen just right. some of the signals put out by set top boxes, especially on their analog outputs, are not optimal. i've never really liked any of them. if you do go down the road of set top boxes and stand alone players, an external scaler is a good idea if you have a decent size 1080 display. you plug everything into it, tell it what kind of display you have, and it does the rest. kinda pricey though.

most digital tv is 576. movies and some shows are on the hd channels and some are 1080. the sound on the hd channels is better.

Maurice Diggler
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:50 pm, by: Maurice Diggler (Mau_rice)

My cats name is Mittens.

You guys lost me LONG ago! I was at JB Hi Fi and saw them doing a demo of a 40" Samsung LCD (1080p enabled) with a Bluray player connected and they split the screen down the middle to show 1080p vs 1080i and I couldn't see bugger all difference?

Dan McColl
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:26 pm, by: Dan McColl (Hoon)

Sam Schreck
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Friday, February 02, 2007 - 06:20 pm, by: Sam Schreck (Schreck300)

Done! I bought the Samsung PS50Q7HDX and it arrives Monday morning. Got it for a great price with a 5 year, limit free, in-home warranty and a 5 year 'no lemon' guarantee. Also includes a 28 day 'early life failure' replacement guarantee. When I walked in to JB the guy thought I was going to be a Wood Duck sale. Man, he had to earn this one, that's for sure.

Thank you everyone for all the feedback and advice.

Greg, I've been a massive H.T enthusiast for years. I'm more than happy with the sound I've got. I'm just sick of looking at these big ugly 4:3 silver rear-pro TVs.

As far as audio goes, I'm currently running -
Yamaha RXZ1 receiver/amplifier
Front Main: Athena S3/P3's (docked to 600 watt RMS active sub bases)
Sub: Yamaha YST-SW515 (also at the front)
Centre (front): Definitive C/L/R 3000
Front Effects: Definitive BP2X
Surround: Definitive BP2X (2 x mid-surround plus 2 x rear surround)
Centre (rear): Definitive C/L/R 3000

After a couple of years of comparing panels, waiting for next generations, watching prices drop, etc etc; the only plasma, that to me has always outshone the rest is Pioneer's. However, I can't fault the Samsung picture quality either.

Now I just have to wait till Monday.

Daniel Czechowski
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Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 12:38 am, by: Daniel Czechowski (Dan)

Nice buy Sam!!

Miles Baker
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Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 09:15 am, by: Miles Baker (Milesb)

Maurice Diggler wrote on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:50 pm:
Bluray player connected and they split the screen down the middle to show 1080p vs 1080i and I couldn't see bugger all difference

That's Sony's big marketing ploy in the US and people are lapping it up. They're also getting retailers to demo HDDVD on 720 displays! JB in Melbourne has a big 1080 LCD and surround sound, with a big area curtained off for the PS3 demo. 360 didn't have anything like that. I think Sony is getting up to their tricks here too.