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David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
V8 Ltd manual

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:25 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Taxes based on engine capacity have existed in Europe for eons. Probably still do.
Miles Baker
DieHard
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:34 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What do I care if the human race is extinct in 100 years? I'll be extinct in 50 max.
Perry Morgan
Goo Roo
Qld
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:36 am, by:  Perry Morgan (Uzz32) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:25 am:

Taxes based on engine capacity have existed in Europe for eons. Probably still do.



Yay, so I drive my soarer 3 or 4 times a month and will pay more than someone driving a hybrid all and every day. I also am told (may be untrue) that at the moment, hybrids are far more resource hungry to produce.
Greg Nikitiuk
DieHard
Vic
Celsior

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:46 am, by:  Greg Nikitiuk (Jestr) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:25 am:

Taxes based on engine capacity have existed in Europe for eons. Probably still do



and they getting tougher there too David.

We won't be far behind them in this country. My guess is it will happen in the next few years
David Vaughan
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ACT
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:57 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hybrids would definitely be more resource-intensive in production because they have two motor types and control systems, not one.

For where I live and how I use the car, I would take a diesel anyway. IMHO hybrids are better suited to city work.
Miles Baker
DieHard
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:40 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cars aren't responsible for much of the pollution at all. Coal plants are over 60% of CO2 emissions. And we have the perfect replacement right here.. lots and lots of uranium. And who is standing in the way of using it?? The greenies! Tools. So until they grow up and face reality, I'll have no part of their bitching.
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:02 am, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ever heard of Chernobyl Miles? To anyone actually getting on that brainwashed bandwagon Howard is proposing, nuclear power is heaps heaps heaps more dangerous and potentially polluting than coal!! I was only 5 years old when it happened, living in Poland still, I can vaguely remember the panic and scare that has occurred when the radioactive cloud went over the entire europe. Europe is roughly similar size to Australia, say a plant on the east coast has an accident, it will have the potential to affect entire Australia all the way to the west coast.

I say renewable energy is the way to go. Solar power, wind power, tidal power, whatever, we got so much land here we're not as restricted as other countries are, it only takes $$$. hell, I'd be willing to quadruple my power bill if it means we get this clean power.

P.S. The fact I work for a coal mining and coal power company has got nothing to do with my views Well, actually we do have a huge windfarm as well north of Perth which has only opened few months ago. We're also building two new state of the art coal power plants, with the latest pollution control technology, not the stuff they used to build back in the sixties...
Luke Nieuwhof
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:33 am, by:  Luke Nieuwhof (Luke_nieuwhof) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel, do you know how many people are killed coal mining and in coal plants every year?
Daniel Czechowski
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Western Australia
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:43 am, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Australia or in China?? I don't care about other countries, I'm talking about Australia here, that's my backyard :-) Not sure about other coal mining companies here in Oz, but mine is an open cut mine, and it has been for long long time. Coal mining becomes much more dangerous if it is underground, due to methane gas buildups etc. Other wise it is the same danger level as uranium mine (if it was open cut). Underground uranium mine would also be as dangerous.

I've never heard of any fatality in a coal power plant in Australia enlighten me.
Miles Baker
DieHard
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:49 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel,
Any idea how much mercury a coal plant puts out? How many birth defects and cancers that causes?

Any idea how many nuclear reactors there are operating all over the world safely right now? The differences between the dodgy design of the old soviet stuff and the new ones GE and the Europeans make? Any clue about the actual death toll from Chernobyl? From Wikipedia:

The 2005 report prepared by the Chernobyl Forum, led by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and World Health Organization (WHO), attributed 56 direct deaths (47 accident workers, and nine children with thyroid cancer), and estimated that as many as 9,000 people among the approximately 6.6 million most highly exposed, may die from some form of cancer (one of the induced diseases).[2] Nearly 20 years after the disaster, according to the Chernobyl Forum, no evidence of increases in the solid cancers and, possibly more significantly, none of the widely expected increases in leukemia have been found in the population.

Any idea how much plutonium, uranium and others have been released into the atmosphere in the pacific (and in maralinga) from nuclear testing? Any idea about the actual amount of background radiation there is in Australia because of our super high natural occurrence of uranium in the soil?


As an electrical engineer and energy speculator, I am all over the alternative energy field. Nothing beats nuclear yet, for baseload generation. Nothing. It's the cleanest and the best. Why do you think one of the founders of Greenpeace is now campaigning for nuclear power? Because he took his head out of the sand and lives in the real world, where we have two viable baseload options: coal and nuclear. Nuclear is cleaner.

Australian coal miner now has a one-in-28 chance of being killed over a 40-year period.

In Australia 281 coal miners have been killed in 18 major disasters since 1902, and there have been 112 deaths in NSW mines since 1979.

Uranium mine deaths are lower because they pull less ore out of the ground. Mine deaths are measured in deaths per million tons mined, and is at about an equal rate independent of the product mined. And coal miners still get lung cancer, which is not in the above figures.
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:16 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have a read around, wikipedia is not the ultimate know it all resource tool. The 9000 people you mentioned is an absolute joke, it is more like in the hundreds of thousands people that have been affected. There have been many reports done in the past (and I cant be stuffed looking for them all) the exact amount of people affected will never be known, but what they do agree on is that it is well over 100,000 people definately. Even now, people are suffering from it.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/chernobyl-deaths-180406

Background radiation, and radiation contamination are two different things! It's like comparing an ant to an elephant. If you reckon it is safe, I heard houses in Chernobyl are very cheap these days. :-) I'm not talking about normal operation, I'm talking about an accident. Chernobyl is not the only one, Three Mile Island (I think that is what it is called, I've read heaps about it in high school for my physics project) was another accident, however luckily it was quickly contained and not much radiation has come out. There were quite a few others, in fact you'll be surprised how often mishaps happen, that are swiped under the carpet and where public is not informed about.

No matter how much technology you put into these things, there is always the factor of a human error (or even terrorism).

Then you've got the issue of nuclear waste as well, different kind of polluttion mate, it ain't clean like you're suggesting it is. While you may pollute the earth with coal, where it may affect the earth for years, nuclear pollution will be around for centuries!

It's not a simple discussion here, there's alot of factors that need to be considered. Honestly, Australia as a country is not dirty at all. Europe on the other hand, becasue it is so dense in population and industry will get a greater "coal-free clean benefit" then we would. Australia in itself is so little, it would make sweet FA of impact on the global scale. And it certainly will not make Australia any cleaner than it already is.


Miles Baker wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:49 am:

Why do you think one of the founders of Greenpeace is now campaigning for nuclear power?




Coz he got paid a nice $$$$$ sum, he couldn't refuse
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:16 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:49 am:

As an electrical engineer and energy speculator,




Plasma salesman one day, IT consulting the next day, now it is electrical engineer, which one is it now?
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:21 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 11:49 am:

Any idea how much plutonium, uranium and others have been released into the atmosphere in the pacific (and in maralinga) from nuclear testing?




Not as much as Chernobyl for example all in one hit... Had they done a Chernobyl accident in Maralinga, it wouldn't just be the immediate woop woop area around the place that is uninhabitable. Judging by the size of Chernobyl contamination, you'd find that Adelaide would be a ghost town right now too!
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:27 pm, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh no, here we go again.

Oh, and I'd like to add that Chernobyl was such a huge disaster because the reactor was a piece of - badly designed using things such as graphite control rods, poorly maintained with an inadequate budget, and run by technicians who had not been trained correctly and had little experience. Modern reactors are a totally different thing.
Daniel Czechowski
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Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:36 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:27 pm:

Oh no, here we go again.




Oh no... what now?? Just discussing things peacefully :-)

In all fairness, with proper training and equipment, and emergency measures in place and properly adhered to, there will probably never be another accident to such an extent as Chernobyl was. However the risk is always there, if not human or equipment failure, then at least sabotage and that sort of thing.

Either way, ask yourself this, would you want to live next to one? Why not? See!
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:42 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 09:25 am:

Taxes based on engine capacity have existed in Europe for eons. Probably still do.




Yeah, for example in Poland you have to be so friggin loaded to have a car with 3L capacity or more, as your rego goes up exponentially. I think 2L gets quite pricey as well. Same with some other European countries. And fair enough, if they had huge engines, it would just clog up with pollution (and more demand for fuel, which means Oz would pay more too lol!).
Luke Nieuwhof
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WA
Soarer TT

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:42 pm, by:  Luke Nieuwhof (Luke_nieuwhof) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel, you're talking a fair bit of propaganda there.
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:46 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Errr, you lost me Luke. In reference to what exactly?
Adam Peterson
DieHard
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:57 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel Czechowski wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:21 pm:

Judging by the size of Chernobyl contamination, you'd find that Adelaide would be a ghost town right now too!



So whats the problem ??
Go for it !
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
V8 Ltd manual

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:04 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is our authoritative reference meant to be an encyclopaedia of popular knowledge or an anti-nuclear lobby group? Just curious.
David Vaughan
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:16 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel wrote on Friday, 9 Mar 2007, at 1221:

Judging by the size of the Chernobyl contamination, you'd find that Adelaide would be a ghost town right now


Let me see now. It is about 850km in a straight line from Maralinga South-East to Adelaide. Cities in Europe within the same range of Chernobyl include Warsaw, Moscow, Minsk, Kiev (100km), Bucharest, Riga and Vilnius. Sorry to hear they are all empty now
Daniel Czechowski
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Western Australia
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:23 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep in mind David, that the Greenpeace report involved 52 respected scientists and included information never before published in English. It challenged the International Atomic Energy Agency Chernobyl Forum report, which predicted 4,000 additional deaths attributable to the accident as a gross simplification of the real breadth of human suffering.

Surely neither of them would be 100% correct, keeping in mind that there are various interests at stake, and depends on who finances the research etc, the results will be significantly different between the two. Let's say the real figure is somewhere in between the two. It's still quite high.

There are plenty of different opinions on the net, just two of them:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19025464.400.html

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article.jsp?id=6&debateId=28&articleId=3477


I've also found an interesting site where some chick rides her motorbike through Chernobyl, it's got pics and detailed descriptions of where she went and what she did etc. Very interesting, check it out!!!:

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:27 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:16 pm:

Let me see now. It is about 850km in a straight line from Maralinga South-East to Adelaide. Cities in Europe within the same range of Chernobyl include Warsaw, Moscow, Minsk, Kiev (100km), Bucharest, Riga and Vilnius. Sorry to hear they are all empty now




It was just a figure of speech David, wasn't sure how far it is from Adelaide...

From personal experience, both my parents got thyroid cancer, (they're fine now). It just happened to have been the May Day public holiday, plenty of people out on the street and so on when the accident happened, and the radioactive cloud went over us. At least in Poland there was an increase in all sorts of cancers since then...
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:40 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your post is so full of assumptions and sourceless claims that I will not qualify it with a response. You watch too much A Current Affair. Australia is currently the highest emitter per capita of greenhouse gases in the world.

Would I live next to one? I'd rather live next to a nuclear plant than a coal plant. And for the first part of my life I lived a few hundred miles up the road from Savannah River. Go look that up. I'd be happy to move back to the same area, and there are other N plants around there, so yes - I would be happy to live near one.

Plasma salesman? No, did I ever try to sell anyone a TV? But I do understand technology. As compared to your uninformed posts in that thread, not even understanding the resolutions of each display mode. I work in IT consulting and electrical/electronic engineering. They are related fields and I graduated with degrees in both. As a sideline I am investing in an alternative energy technology company.

So one of us works for a coal mine, and the other has money in alternative energy. Surprisingly, Mr Coal is trying to say coal is safer and cleaner than uranium. Nuclear waste is not stuff that glows green and can kill from 20km. 99% of it is only alpha emitters. My source is the World Health Organisation. Yours is Greenpeace. Nuff said.


Daniel Czechowski wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:21 pm:

Not as much as Chernobyl for example all in one hit



Wrong. Straight up wrong. As always. You're wrong every single time you try to oppose me. Every time without fail. Give up. Or at least come at me armed with some facts instead of stuff you read in the tabloids or hear on TV. And FFS go to the gym. You're skinny.
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 70 Dodge Challenger, 69 Corvette Convertible

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Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:45 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel Czechowski wrote on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 01:23 pm:

I've also found an interesting site where some chick rides her motorbike through Chernobyl, it's got pics and detailed descriptions of where she went and what she did etc. Very interesting, check it out!!!:

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/





If you actually read some more about that site, you'll see that most of it is exaggerated and made up.

You'll believe anything.

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