Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 09:40 am, by: David Vaughan
John, I will be surprised if she is right in all respects. Australian law follows English law in this regard. I think she is right that there is no specific law of entrapment but under common law a cop who makes the first illegal move is still acting illegally. In drug setups, the cop has to hint they want something and the dealer then volunteer the drugs. Usually they just wait until the dealer is in possession of the drugs so no "incitement to crime" issues arise. His or her superior is not legally able to authorise them to break the law to create a crime. However, your points 3 and 4 are correct. The police will say you first committed the offence and they were in pursuit, when they are legally authorised to break certain laws. Their superior is merely turning a blind eye to their actual offences.
I agree with your most important point of course; do not race off-track.
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:49 pm, by: Tim Appleton
I agree with David. The cop can't be authorised to break the road rules (sliding sideways) while not actually in pursuit because there is no crime or offence being committed. They are simply endangering the public. What if the cop had hit you sliding sideways out the street? With regards to point 4 - if it is the driver's word solely against a cop's word then I think that is the case. But if an independent witness (not in the vehicle) can verify the claim that a police account of an event is incorrect then you at least have a leg to stand on in court.
And I agree with the moral of the story: Don't race off-track
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 05:43 pm, by: peter lang
coincidence i guess, but my gf passed under cover magna verada going the opposite way yesterday which then quickly did a u turn and followed her at a discreet distance for ages ,hoping to catch a "hoon" hahaha
While we are on about cops, in the last few days or so i have spotted 2 cop cars going along and the drivers were on phones....... But yeah i find it funny undercover camry's etc lol.
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 07:16 pm, by: Stephen Hille
They do it and we often do also, sometimes we dont want information going over the radio and if that means that we have to drive while on the phone, thats how things will happen.
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 07:38 pm, by: Ollie Ernst
Stephen......With all due respect mate, and I'm not looking to start an argument but It's yet another case of one law for Joe Average and one for the boys in blue.
They apparently passed the law in relation to use of mobile phones due to fact that research has proven it distracts the driver and compromises road safety, yet police officers regularly ignore this.
It's no different to the fact that Joe Average can get pulled over and defected for a simple BOV, while the vast majority of Police vehicles fail to meet ADRs themselves.
I doubt most people would have such a bee in their bonnets about police were the laws applied equally to all. I know there are a decent percentage who are doing the right thing but it appears there's a also a substantial percentage who believe themselves above the law.
Ollie, I'm pretty sure that police are exempt from that ruling about mobile phones as they are necessary for the police to do their job etc. That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it but yea...
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 05:51 am, by: Ollie Ernst
Tom.......That's exactly my point. Cops aren't the only ones who need a mobile to do their job, BUT, they're the only ones who get an exemption from the law. Everyone else manages to get by with either a hands free kit or pulling off the road to receive/make a call.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 08:33 am, by: Stephen Hille
I do agree with the handsfree kits in Police cars, we have them in all of our vehicles as standard. Unfortunately I think that the general public will never understand the way emergency services work, and thats not out of your own fault its just that your not part of it. I have no doubt that some coppers / ambos / fireys have used phones for personal use while driving but quite often I have had to receive sensitive information that we just dont want going over the radios, think of it like this. If the coppers or ambos have to come to your house would you rather your details go over the radio - which people can listen in on over the internet anywhere in the world or a scanner in the local area, or would you prefer us to use the mobile to protect your privacy. Look out the square people and get over it, we are here to help you
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 09:44 am, by: Ollie Ernst
I appreciate what you're saying Stephen and also appreciate that emergency services ARE here to help us all.
It's not just about phones though. The thread is about the entire issue of Police either being, or believing they are, exempt from the laws that apply to the whole of society.
I work in the field of aviation safety, and I'm here to help you all too (all of you that fly or live/travel under aircraft flightpaths at least). Does that give me the same right to break laws when it suits? No.
The discussion's about the "The law doesn't apply to me" attitude that a percentage of the police force seems to have. Sure the same attitude exists with a given percentage of the general public, BUT, they are liable to pay the price if they get sprung putting that attitude into practice. All too rarely are the boys in blue subject to that same risk.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 03:32 pm, by: Craig Webber
Sorry Stephen,I have to agree with Ollie. And as for the the m/phone I have to say that is biggest pile of crap.M/phone can be listen in to as well.And I know you have to say this so you dont get a kick in the pants from your boss.In general the boys in blue do a great job ,but when it come to the old PR the boys and girls need to take a good hard look at themself.We know that there are a lot of ares holes out there.But a law for one and not for some dose not work.And know one hear is having ago at you.Maybe the police need to have these talks with the public.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 04:32 pm, by: Stephen Hille
Hey thats fine no need to apologize for agreeing with someone, we all have our own opinions formed on whatever they are formed on, I know mine are formed on working in the emergency services and to me thats all that matters.
Very few people will attempt to listen in on a mobile phone conversation though, yes it can be done but very few people have a) the knowledge, b)the equipment and c) the skills.
Don't worry about me getting my ass kicked by anyone, I dont have to keep anyone happy I can gaurantee you that none of my bosses are on this forum, and even if they were I will still absolutely stand by what im saying and if they have a problem with that they can front me. Im just trying to let you know my opinion which doing what I do should count for something. '
I don't think that its a law for them and a law for anyone else, I do however think that there are exceptional actions for exceptional circumstances. The police will never keep the public happy its a simple fact of life, in WA there is something like I think 5,000 coppers, imagine trying to control 5,000 different personalities to keep everyone happy it just wont happen, and often there is a problem that the copper themselves has (i.e. just a plain asshole and I have met some) but you wont stop that either unfortunately. I have worked with some very good coppers and some that I have no respect for whatsoever but its the same with any job.
I think one of the main problems here is the media, the media are always running stories about police brutality and police this and that, you almost will NEVER hear a story about how a cop saved an ambo from being torn to bits and yes its happened to me, or how a cop saved someones life, because for some reason it seems that people would rather hear bad things I dont understand it. Also the general public direct their anger at the coppers for the amount of crime / criminals and general annoyances that happen, when really they play such a small part in the whole scheme of things. Cops can lock as many people up as possible but it doesnt mean a thing if the magistrates / judges dont put them away or give them pissy little sentences in what can at worst be described as decent accomodation.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 05:04 pm, by: Ollie Ernst
Good post Stephen. I have to add that I'm not speaking from having had negative experiences with police. Quite the opposite. My experiences have generally been pretty positive. In fact until we moved into our current house we lived next door to a Federal copper, and a nicer bloke you couldn't hope to meet.
I TOTALLY agree with you on the point that magistrates have completely lost touch with reality in some of the sentences being handed out and I'm sure it's an endless source of frustration for the police who put in the effort to catch these clowns, only to have them walk due to a good sob story about either drug problems or a broken home.
I'll also admit your comment about the media is equally valid. They do often focus on the negative aspects of policing, but I'd have to say that given the regularity they come up with stories makes you think the police force has, let's say, "issues". I won't even START on the corruption side of things.
I suppose it's the same as with so many groups of the community. The percentage of scumbags finish up getting the whole group tarred with the same brush.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 06:08 pm, by: Ollie Ernst
You may well be taking the piss Graham but it's bloody right. How much has the public's attitude towards "high powered import cars" been shaped by the odd dickhead in a Skyline acting like a moron for the cameras or winding up scattered all over the road while street racing?
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 07:37 pm, by: Craig Webber
Yes Stephen I agree with what you say there,you only hear the bad in police and bad in drivers. So dose it make it right if the police make them self exempt from the law to take drugs.?????????And the police start make there own laws, and we just have to put up with it and have no say.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 09:06 pm, by: Tim Appleton
Hmmm, do I sense a general dislike for the misrepresentation of different groups in the media here?
Too true, Ollie - three or four kids killed in "Daddy's GTR", driving it thinking he's invincible. And another media beat-up over an R31 sedan being portrayed as a "high powered" R32 GTR also springs to mind.
My general view is that cops do a good job in keeping the peace. It's just when they don't do a good job, they tend to have a badge to hide behind.
Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 07:25 pm, by: Miles Baker
Personally I hate the car load of wankers who lean out their windows and yell crap at me and try and race me. Half the time they nearly jam their piece of crap into my piece of crap. Idiots like that can all go screw themselves. If the cops can egg you into racing them, good. You deserve to lose your licence. Yeah usually I am not on the cops' side in these posts because they are screwing over mostly innocent people for harmless infractions. But if you're a wanker and you get busted, good work police!
Previous
I won't even START on the corruption side of things. 
