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Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 06:57 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apples with apples guys, The 1UZ is reliable relaxed, quiet and totally stress free, designed for lazy torque not blazing power.

The total opposite from the 1.6 litre Honda motor which you have to rev the crap out of, goes into horrid noisy little buzz boxes, and will disintegrate in under 200,000km with even just a little neglect (which is still a testament to Honda's ability to build great high revving motors)

Each has their place I guess, but no point in comparing them.

Not even going to start on efficiency and emissions comparisons with American V8's.

The 1UZ does exactly what Toyota designed it to do.
Adam Peterson
DieHard
Western Australia
Bugatti Veyron

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:47 am, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct me if im wrong but the 1UZ was used in the SuperGT GT500 Supras prior to the teams switching from the Supra chassis to the SC430, where they now use the 3UZ-FE.
Dan McColl
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Victoria
Active V8 and a Factory Manual XF.

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:51 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 01:37 pm:

And it can make 70hp per litre.



If ya want to compare, then compare what they both make stock, or what they both can make.

Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 01:37 pm:

It makes 65hp per litre



Justin, with the GT4, has near 400kw at the wheels, approx 450 at the engine, that's 600hp.
So a 1UZ can make 150hp per litre if ya wanna make the comparison that way.
Adam Peterson
DieHard
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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:54 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, the Honda S2000 produces 120HP/litre STOCK.
176kw from a 4cyl 2l. I have seen these tuned with VAFC + simple Intake, Header / exhaust to net 200kw.

Mate two of these together over a single crank you then have a V8 and a hypothetical one of that revving to 9100rpm all day whilst pumping out minimum 350kw STOCK :-)

Slap on an exhaust, intake and a decent set of headers with a tune and you will have about 400kw from a 4l.

Sounds too good to be true. Honda are doing it :-)
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:58 pm, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

S2000 engine is 15 odd years newer design than the 1UZ, and again, its a screamer, not a cruser.
Dan McColl
Goo Roo
Victoria
Active V8 and a Factory Manual XF.

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 02:54 pm, by:  Dan McColl (Hoon) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm well aware of what honda can do, I'd like to see a S2K with 300,000 K's on the clock, though.

But, we weren't comparing screamers, we were comparing cruisers.
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 03:19 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those are all stock parts used to build that motor. That's how GM sells a lot of their crate motors. Some people want injection, some want carbs. Some need different exhaust manifolds to fit. Just choose the stock parts off the shelf and slap the accessories on it. They also sell the motor assembled with all those combinations of parts making that exact power number - I prefer sticking it together myself if for no other reason than to paint/powder/plate all the bits the right colors when they're apart and easier to work with. But yes, those are stock motors with warranties, and by no means at the performance end of their spectrum. Definitely for the resto-cruiser. Hell, the motor I am using is actually taken off the PICKUP TRUCK production line.

I could have compared it to the performance crate motors they sell, some of which make up around the 100hp per litre area. Again, with a warranty.

My point is, old dinosaur motors shouldn't even be in the ballpark. This should not be the company that Toyota are keeping. They should have UZ motors putting out 90hp per litre without screaming. There is no reason why not. If 60s designs can do it, the UZ bloody well should.
Gareth Richards
TryHard
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GTT-L twin turbo auto / Lexus GS300 SE Mk2

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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 06:09 pm, by:  Gareth Richards (Garethr) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 03:19 pm:

Too true. The 1UZ is old though and wasn't designed for sports cars. They needed low down torque and 6500rpm redline was fine. It can be made to put out 450+: have a look at the NZ cars. But yes, Toyota did release it in pretty feeble shape, even for its day.
The motor for my '55 is something else I have compared to it. It's the bottom of the range GM crate motor, at $2800 brand new. It's 5.7 litres. With a $200 intake manifold, $400 carby, $200 exhaust manifold, $300 ignition and $500 of other accessories and gaskets, it puts out a dyno proven 350hp. With a $650 pair of heads and a $250 cam it will hit 400hp at the crank. That's about $5k, and by no means are any of those components considered "performance parts". Likewise the motor itself has the cheapest cast pistons and crank GM could lay their hands on, and sports compression below the 1UZ and only 2 valves per cylinder, pushrods and a 6000rpm redline. The motor itself is a 1970s design, and the heads are late 80s. And it can make 70hp per litre. The 1UZ is quad cam, 32 valve, designed in the late 80s with forged crank and 6 bolt mains. It makes 65hp per litre.
Toyota got some 'splainin to do.




None of those comparisons is exactly fair though.

The first thing to note is the "F" in 1UZ-FE. Toyota did not design it as a performance engine.

The second point is that the power of the UZ compares very well with that of its contemporaries from Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar. Even the current Merc 5.5-litre V8 is "only" 71 bhp/litre.

The third point is that behind the small-block Chevy there are 90 million engines and over 50 years of hot-rodding. It's hardly surprising that the parts cost buttons and tuning kit is plentiful.
Miles Baker
DieHard
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Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:18 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you're missing the point that I'm saying the parts I'm using are the mildest, stockest, non-performancest off the shelf parts you can lay your hands. Not worked at all. Carby is based on the old AFB designs. Manifold is sand cast $200 special. Headers are non tuned length shorties - easiest to fit in the bay. Ignition is a dizzy not a CDI etc. Heads are cast iron pickup truck. Compression is under 9:1, 1UZ is quoted at 10:1. I am NOT using "tuning kit". If I was, I could pull 600+hp out of the motor.

I own both. I like both. But the 1UZ should make more than it does - a lot more. Comparing it to bikes, the chevy motor is equivalent to a harley design. Now the aftermarket harley design pushrod motors are making around 120hp from 1.8 litres. A Japanese DOHC per cylinder v-twin makes about 130hp from 1 litre.

That should be the 1UZ. It has the cams, it has the mains, it has the rods, it has the cranks, it has the valves, it has a computer. Make it do 350hp stock, not 260.
Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 01:08 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So what is holding it back?
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 02:25 am, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting question indeed Pen! One I would like to know the answer to! I love my 1UZ, purely and simply because it's a Japanese V8 and the sound it produces is unlike any other V8! :-)
Phil Gibson
Goo Roo
WA
'94 black/black UZZ31

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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 02:35 am, by:  Phil Gibson (Sciflyer) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The stock Buick 6 is a 30+ year-old design, pushrod, low-revving, coarse, unbalanced (even with a balance shaft..) cast iron lump

Hardly an ideal candidate for racing

All it has over say a 1UZ is 20 years of production and of being a "class" racing engine, and all the aftermarket development that goes with that

If that same development was put into the UZ series there would be no competition, and thats even despite the fact that it clearly was designed for pure refinement and economy rather than outright performance

Ive already pointed this out before but remember for almost 10 years after it was released the 4 litre 1UZ was still making more power than Holdens 5 litre V8 so clearly it was not underpowered
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:32 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Phil, Also a 1991 Chevy Camaro would have been lucky to have 230hp!

So in its day against production vehicles, the 1UZ faired pretty well.

But Miles is comparing SPorts USA production Cars + Engines against a japenese Luxury 2 door Vehicle!

Kinda like trying to say, Hey Why doesnt a 220kw GS200 Top of the Range Fairlane have as much poke as the FPV GT 290kw one!!!

They are both manufactured for a different reason!
I dont know why People think 240+ Hp from 4Litres is a bad thing? SPecially from a design thats almost 20 years old.

It was designed as a low key engine that was as smooth as a babies bottom! And it was and still is!
Daniel Clarke
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:38 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1991 Chevy Camaro. Chevy's top of the range sports Coupe in its day.. Notice the SPORTS bit? NOT Luxury!!!

Powertrain Options and Availability
A new 3.1-liter V6 replaced the former 2.8-liter as base engine for 1990. Three V8 choices were available that year: a 5.0-liter V8 with throttle-body fuel injection, making 170 horsepower; another 5.0-liter with port injection, rated 220 horsepower; and a 5.7-liter V8 that cranked out 230 horses (available only in the IROC-Z). Only a 4-speed automatic transmission was available for use with the 5.7-liter V8, but other engines could have either 5-speed manual shift or the optional automatic. For 1991, the Z28 took over the role of the deleted IROC Z, carrying either a 230-horsepower 5.0-liter V8 or the optional 5.7-liter, upped to 245 horsepower.


So um 5 litres has 230 HP , Like WOW... Thats pretty crap for 5 litres compared to 1UZ's 4 litres producing MORE HP.

And 5.7Litres has 245 HP.... The 1UZ hactually has just under 260HP!!

SO Miles, Hows the BIG MAssive output V8's going now?

Mate all youve been talking about is Crate Engines which are Rebuilt with performance in mind! Whether you have the mildest Package or not, it is STILL a Modified from factory performance Crate engine!

These figures show how WELL the 1UZ 4L V8 Toyota Engine faired against its rivals back in its day.

Thumbs Up Toyota.
Daniel Clarke
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:43 am, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And MIles if your trying to say " hell its off a PICKUP TRUCK" thing....

Ford Australia is using the 5.4L Dohc V8 in ALL of its Australian Cars.. Its from the Ford F150's in the states! The Mustangs use the 4.6L Varient.

But in australia they went for Cubes because our cars are so Barge Arsed we need the Torque.

350HP from a basically stock 5.7Litre Chev. Mate it aint stock to produce those figures!

GM has been producing Fuel injected variants over the years and its only been since 1998 and upwards were they close to making 320hp from their High output versions in Corvettes and such or the HSV line in Aus.

Even the LS7 only produced 297kw ( bout 395hp) with its top of the range engine. At the time, 300kw was runing round here in AUS!
Andrew Ferres
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:49 am, by:  Andrew Ferres (Peewee) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geez, enough with the 1UZ bagging.

As point out before, it was designed to do one thing, and one thing only.
And that was to effortlessly lug around 1800kg of Toyota's finest steel while being so smooth you would barely notice it running, having a very acceptable fuel economy, and being extremely reliable for in excess of 500,000km.

And did it achieve this??
Damn straight it did. Passed with flying colours.




One thing that people keep forgetting is that a motor is just an air pump. How it does it differs greatly, but it still does it.
OHC's will not produce any more power than pushrods.
DOHC's will not produce any more power than SOHC's
4 valves per cyl will not produce any more power than 2 valves per cyl.
EFI will not produce any more power than carby.
VTEC will not produce any more power than nonVTEC
VVTi will not produce any more power than nonVVTi

See where I'm going with this?
(this was all assuming you are comparing simliar specs, cam lift/duration, valve area, etc etc)

What all these technological advances have done is make the engine more flexible.

Take a motor, put a huge cam in it, big carby and you'll get a lot of power.
But try and tow a heavy load with it.
You lose a lot of the lowdown torque with a huge cam, and the big carby is just going to chew the juice.

Now take a motor with EFI and VVTi.
You get the benefit of low down torque, and then the VVTi moves the cam at the upper end and gives you up end power. While the whole time the EFI gives you the exact amount of fuel thats required.

VTEC is another step where you get both a big cam to get your top end, and a little cam to keep some low down torque to pull the car at low speeds.


At the end of the day, almost any motor is capable of reliably producing 100hp/L (NA).

Full blown race motors (with no budget and very loose restrictions) are capable of 200hp/L.



If you want to compare something in the UZ range, look at the new 3UZ.

285kW (382hp), and only 4.3L.
Thats 89hp/L, stock.
Andrew Ferres
DieHard
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:57 am, by:  Andrew Ferres (Peewee) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, thats not the new 3UZ.

The new 1UR-FE (4.6L V8) has 285kW.
Or 83hp/L



It will be interesting to see what Toyota does with the 2UR and 3UR (5.0 and 5.7L respectively)
Adam Peterson
DieHard
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:42 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Andrew Ferres wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:49 am:

VTEC will not produce any more power than nonVTEC


Sorry mate but you're very wrong there. I can write a 4 page response as to why but this isnt the place.
Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:48 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about a summary then?
Andrew Ferres
DieHard
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:58 pm, by:  Andrew Ferres (Peewee) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Adam Peterson wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:42 pm:

Sorry mate but you're very wrong there. I can write a 4 page response as to why but this isnt the place.



You missed this

Andrew Ferres wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:49 am:

(this was all assuming you are comparing simliar specs, cam lift/duration, valve area, etc etc)


David Vaughan
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ACT
V8 Ltd manual

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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 01:00 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If this isn't the place, where is?
Adam Peterson
DieHard
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:11 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.dohc-vtec.net/pages/resource.htm

and for more detailed read.
http://www.dohc-vtec.net/pages/linked/vtec-what-it-is.htm

btw, I wrote that site.
Adam Peterson
DieHard
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:14 pm, by:  Adam Peterson (President) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Andrew Ferres wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:58 pm:

You missed this

Andrew Ferres wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:49 am:
(this was all assuming you are comparing simliar specs, cam lift/duration, valve area, etc etc)




Still very different.
VTEC cams are different to non VTEC cams.
VTEC is controlled by the ECU and a set rpm which actuates a pin to engage the vtec lobe on the camshaft. Non vtec cams dont have this.
Duration, lift and overlap is also different.
More reading can be found on my previous post :-)
Miles Baker
DieHard
Vic
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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:55 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aaaaaargh!

We're trying to compare it to Japanese motors. It should be making more power like other jap motors do. God dammit! It's like I'm trying to piss in your corn flakes or something! The motor has the technology, it should go harder. I own one! I expect more, judging by what the rest of Japan can make. That is all.

This should not be 1UZ vs US V8 other than to say the 1UZ SHOULD BE KILLING THEM! It should not be "as good", it should be way in front!


"SO Miles, Hows the BIG MAssive output V8's going now?

Mate all youve been talking about is Crate Engines which are Rebuilt with performance in mind! Whether you have the mildest Package or not, it is STILL a Modified from factory performance Crate engine!"

Dude seriously. I am not trying to back the American V8 vs the 1UZ. That is not what I am trying to do here. I am saying that the 1UZ has the technology that it should be WAY out in front, but it's not. It's languishing back in dinosaur numbers. It should be way out in front in its own league.

GM Goodwrench crate motors are not "Rebuilt for performance". They are made as replacement motors for older vehicles that have worn out their powerplant. Theyre built outta cheap low spec parts just like the stuff they are supposed to replace.

There IS a performance range. The motor I am talking about is not in it. The performance motors are the ones built with the factory sports and aftermarket sports kit like steel cranks and forged rods. Mine has a nodular iron cast crank and rods and pistons straight off the old production lines. Same stuff. You can choose from 2 heads, both still the same old production castings. The choice is because the manifold port design changed in the late 80s. The newer head is straight off the truck production line.

The 1UZ should sh!t all over this motor. It doesn't. That is my point.

"350HP from a basically stock 5.7Litre Chev. Mate it aint stock to produce those figures! "
I can assure you it is. Slapping the stock-as-a-rock bits together with me own two little paws. Compression is under 9:1. Rotating assembly untouched stock Chevy originals. Same part numbers on those rods and crank as always. Read up on it, you'll see.

Read up on the Vettes too. Quite surprising that a "405hp" Z06 was putting down about 385rwhp at last check. 405 might be an understatement? Likewise the "505hp" LS7s have been putting down upwards of 450hp at the wheels, stock. Hmmmm.

"The new 1UR-FE (4.6L V8) has 285kW.
Or 83hp/L "

NOW THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!! YEAH!
Andrew Ferres
DieHard
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'86 Cressida V8, '84 Soarer V8, '90 C-F Celsior V8

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Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:44 pm, by:  Andrew Ferres (Peewee) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Adam Peterson wrote on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:14 pm:

Still very different.
VTEC cams are different to non VTEC cams.
VTEC is controlled by the ECU and a set rpm which actuates a pin to engage the vtec lobe on the camshaft. Non vtec cams dont have this.
Duration, lift and overlap is also different.
More reading can be found on my previous post



Yes, I know. That is very obvious.

What I'm saying is that you compare a motor with a VTEC cam, to a motor with a nonVTEC cam, BUT HAS THE SAME GRIND AS THE VTEC CAM (ie, the upper end) it will give the same power.




A motor is a very simple device.
You get as much air in as possible, give it the correct amount of fuel, compress it as much as possible, give it the biggest spark possible at the best time, and you will get the best power.

Technology has not helped this a huge amount.

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