Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 05:44 pm, by: Troy Tappenden(Moredhel)
I think that there is a few different things going on in this thread. 1 is about police and the laws they can "Decide to break", which I have no comment on because I haven't seen a cop break any road rules.
The other topic is what get's me though is the whole thing most cops have got against cars in general, and in the last 3-4 years, imported cars. Targeting import drivers is blatent Discrimination against import drivers. Cops can sit there and tell you till they are black and blue in the face that they don't target specific cars, but do random vehicle checks and license checks/breathe tests. This is garbage. Whilst in Perth we observed a road block, completely covering 2 lanes of a 3 lane freeway, pulling people for breathe tests. Everyone was pulled over in the middle lane, then let through if everything was OK, but in the 3rd lane was all the import cars getting checked over by cops that don't know what they are looking at. Not one Commodore or Falcon, and we saw a few go through as well, so it's not like we just happened to be there when they got some imports. That is just wrong. Half the time cops are issuing fines for things they don't even know about. I have seen cops inspect my car and my brothers car as well as a few friends cars. All of these cars were done up and you know what they were checking? 1: Foam on the air conditioning pipes (Why? Do you know what that is idiot?!) 2: Standard air funnel for EB - ED Falcon battery box (He thought it was an air intake?! My god, look idiot it is plugged in to the box around the battery!!) 3: Dust stuck to chassis rails whilst in one of the most dusty places in the country, commenting that it wasn't clean under the engine bay, when the car was just meticulously cleaned and spent all morning at a show 'n' Shine. We were like WTF! Idiot, you aren't being paid to comment on a few specs of dust. Don't try to get us riled up so that we say something you can pin us on. 4: Car did not pass height inspection because the cop put his boot under the front lip and it touched only just. Real accurate measuring their champ, it was enough for the driver to get a canary. 5: Same driver, same canary as last point, female cop says "Your tyres are bald" Driver says "No, they are above the wear indicators" Female cop turn to male cop and says "What is a wear indicator?" Jesus! She is doing vehicle inspections and doesn't know what a wear indicator was! How was she allowed to even do this job? Do you have to pass a test first, or do they just put you on the street after police academy and hope you remember some of the stuff in the books! Were there even any books on this stuff in police academy!! On the canary was the following: Vehicle to low (No measurement were given here by the way!" Vehicles tyres are almost to wear indicators.
He even put "Almost to wear indicators" on the canary! How can you yellow sticker a car for being only just legal?! That is insane!
The other thing is, why are imports being target by cops so much? Because they are so high powered? Tell me, how much power do Chev and Ford V8's put out once they have a charger and some internal mods done?! Fords and Commodores are still some of the fastest street driven cars in Australia, and there is a lot more of them too, and a lot of them are driven by hoons.
You can't tell me that they pull over all the GTR's because they kill people. The old saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" is very true. Case in point, how many people are killed in a Commodore or a Falcon in a year compared to how many people die in Supras and Skylines? I haven't looked, but I will bet that more have died or been in accidents in Ford or Holdens.
People that target imports are victims of their own stupidity. Just like Mothers Agains Skylines and the cops, they are commenting on things they know nothing about. For example, Nissans have had HICAS and Attessa for years now. Both excellent safety features when applied properly. Toyota's have the traction control and other things. Holden's and Fords have none of these things, or even any inventions similar to it (Except traction control, but lets face it, they still took their sweet time introducing that, and it is still an option and only on the top models). European cars have devices to stop cars from secumbing to weight shifting through applying brakes to only one or two wheels to stop fishtailing effects when the car has to swerve. Now, tell me that a Commodore is a safer car to drive than a Nissan Skyline. Tell me that Skylines have more power than a Falcon or commodore. Tell me that putting lowered suspension on your car should be illegal, when lowering your car makes the handling better. Tell me that my wheels are to big, or my tyres are too wide, because more tyre on the road is proven to increase handling and reduce stopping distances, and bigger wheels reduce side wall roll. Tell me that my exhaust is too loud. WHO CARES! People that complain about loud exhausts are looking for something to complain about! Why can someone sit in their chair at home, while the next door neighbour has a party until 2:00 in the morning with the music blaring, but you don't call the cops and get them to quiet down for about 3 hours, but you hear a car with a loud exhaust traveling past your house at 60kph, so you hear it for maybe 3 seconds, but that is enough for the cops to deem you non roadworthy due to noise pollution?! It is just crazy! Do the law makers (Which I know aren't cops) even have a clue what is going on? Do the cops realise that they are enforcing ludacris rules that makes no sense and has no engineering background or sensible reasoning?
Why should a Skyline get pulled over and deemed unroadworthy for having a BOV, lowered suspension and a loud exhaust, when Joe Bloggs can drive past the cops in a rusted out Datsun 120Y held together with glue and sticky tape, everything riddled with rust, rooted brakes, rooted steering, no horn and a busted indicator, and the cops don't look twice because they are too busy looking for the imports.
Sorry to rant and rave people but I have had a dead set gutful of cops and their stupid beliefs. If you are a cop and you read this, I make no apologies, if you aren't the type of cop that does these things, then disregard this post, but it does happen from other cops.
P.S. The anti hoon laws that give cops the right to take someone's vehicle is absolute crap. How is that different from stealing? Someone owns that car. Someone paid money for that car. It is not the governments property or money, the government should never own/see/profit from that car. The owner should have their license revoked, but what people do with their car is private as far as keeping it, selling it, whatever. You can't tell someone to sell a vehicle either because they could want to use that car for private use on private property. If a cop ever tells me they are taking my car, my god, they will have a fight on their hands... I have no respect for traffic cops that do these sorts of things. Find a murderer or rapist, something, just leave us alone if we aren't hurting anyone.
If the government isn't revenue raising from speed cameras and speed traps, then where is all the money going? If the government doesn't need it (Hence, not revenue raising), give it to charities around the country, or make it a demerit fine only. Money comes and goes, but take someone's license away and they will think twice before breaking the law again, I guarantee you.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:24 pm, by: Craig Webber(Soarr)
Very long BUT You have hit the nail right on the head.AS you stated To any police who read this,Have a good long hard look at yourself and think . When it come to road safety what is more dangers. 1:Loud exhaust or a car with blad tyres 2:Too lower car or a car with near no brakes. 3:neon lights or car with no brakes lights So think of it this way if the Gov/past law for you to shot pepole just for the fun of it, would you.No I think not because you would say that is not right.But some road worthy rules are not right but you hide behind the GOV when it come to handing out fines.Stop the rev/raising and make the roads safer.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:49 pm, by: Ollie Ernst(Oli_g)
One comment I'd like to add about the "anti-hoon" laws that are becoming so prevalent in this country:
"If it's OK to confiscate someone's car for doing burnouts, why is it NOT OK to confiscate someone's car for repeatedly driving while disqualified?"
How often have we seen current affairs shows highlight the regularity at which people emerge from court having just lost their licences, only to jump straight behind the wheel and drive off? If you're going to confiscate cars for anything, that'd be the time to do it, for the period of the license disqualification. If they're then caught driving another car while disqualified, they lose the confiscated car altogether. Whether it be a Corolla or a Mercedes.
I know some on here might not like that idea but there needs to be some viable deterrent to stop people driving while disqualified, particularly when a substantial percentage of people lose licenses through DUI, only to re-offend soon after through lack of a decent deterrent.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 08:42 pm, by: Ollie Ernst(Oli_g)
Not only disqualified David, but doped up to the eyeballs at the time if my memory serves me correctly. It was the fact that she was drugged out of her mind that saved her from manslaughter charges I believe.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 09:06 pm, by: Jason Kingsmill(Jason_k)
I think it's downright apalling that somebody who has ingested drugs by their own choice can expect to be excused their actions while still under the influence. Not only that, but have the indecency to accept a "not guilty" for something that was essentially their own making, regardless if they had control while under the influence or not.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 09:19 pm, by: Ollie Ernst(Oli_g)
Exactly Jason. The person makes a conscious decision to ingest the drugs or alcohol at a time they ARE in control of their actions KNOWING it could lead them to point where they are no longer in control. That decision has been made knowingly, and by them. Hence any consequences of that action should be consequences they are accountable for.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 09:40 pm, by: Troy Tappenden(Moredhel)
Yeah, sorry about the long post people, but there was a LOT I just wanted to get off my chest. I was sort of expecting to log in and see people telling me I am wrong or out of line, but it seems that most people feel that they have been victimised at the hands of the police also.
I agree also with what everyone else has said above. DUI is totally unacceptable in my eyes. People that do it should be jailed as Benny mentioned if it is bad enough, but the law needs to be tougher, wheather it is jail, or license suspension. I have drunk drove once, maybe 2 times (Not too sure if I was over the limit the second time) but the one time I know I drunk drove, I almost lost control of my car while getting sideways around a corner, which I would have had no problem doing when I was sober. I only drove around 2 corners, about 100 metres! I have never drunk drove since, and don't plan to start. People think that they are fine, but believe me, you don't know how wrong you are until you come unstuck, and then it is too late. Imagine how bad you would feel if you were drink driving and you hit someone and killed them? Could you live the rest of your life knowing there was no one else to blame for that? And it was totally avoidable if you caught a taxi or didn't drink in the first place?
Now, I am a self proclaimed hoon, and I am not saying that DUI is unacceptable, but speeding and skids are. When I speed, I am the only one in the car, I never speed when there are passengers, and where I am, I only speed on the highway, and as soon as I see someone in the distance I slow back down, so I am making the chances of me causing an accident as small as possible, at least they are only going to be as possible as a normal non-hoon person. I never speed in the city.
Skids and sideways action I only do when no one is around, and usually it is very low speed stuff, so the worst that is likely to happen is I am going to run up a curb and smash a rim or tyre, no one gets hurt, and no one's property gets damaged but my own. That's the way I drive.
But yeah, cops really do need to have their head stuffed in. Especially ones on a power trip that think they are better than us. Like the one I mentioned earlier that tried to get in to a fight with us by pointing out that my brothers engine bay had dust in it. He had nothing else to pick on, but my brother wasn't wearing a seatbelt at the time, so he just wanted to be a prick about it and go over the car. I gave that cop so much lip, then he tried to start on me, telling me that I was doing 5 kph over the limit a few seconds before. I said "Dude, I have a digital dash that tells me to the kilometer per hour how fast I am going! I think you need your gun re-calibrated" (Yes my tyres and rims are the right size and rolling diameter) He shut up after that, only saying that there was no need for me to accelerate to the speed limit as fast as I could, to which I said "There is no law against it, I can do it if I like". He just walked off after fully going over my car and realising that there was nothing he could pin me on Brand new tyres and all suckers!!
If a cop pulls me over for speeding or something, and I know I am in the wrong, I am always nice to them, it's not like I have an attitude as soon as a cop pulls me over. But when a cop is cruising around and 10 cars drive past him and he pulls a U-Turn to follow me cause I have big chrome wheels and the car is lowered (Last car, this one still looks stock) and tells me it is a random breathe test, then I give them lip cause it was obvious he just wanted to pin me for something, there was nothing random about it!
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:58 pm, by: Stephen Hille(9zero)
Fair post Troy in some ways, I dont think its fair to say that most cops have a thing against cars in general, as I always say we are mostly only exposed to the cops in traffic because they are the ones out there doing what they are asked to do. Yes even within the coppers the traffic guys aren't huge favorites as a rule but they are just doing what they are paid to do. I personally can think of at least 5 coppers that I know that are car / bike nuts.
You are correct in saying they target specific cars, I have seen these import stops before however I have also seen it for taxi's, the coppers just do whatever they are told to do from above, if they are told to pull over imports and check them thats what they do, as you would in your job. Very few cops are mechanics and I think it would be fair to say that not a lot of them know anywhere near enough to be handing out stickers, I think with these roadblocks they should have one of the guys from the licensing centers so they can sticker what is stickerable and what isnt. I think it is quite similar to asking a mechanic to write up a court brief on an arrest, he might have a rough idea but doesnt know the best way to go about things and how to write it up properly as most people wouldnt.
I think that the police aren't doing themselves any favors targeting certain groups for instance bikies and let me give you an example.
The coppers pull over a bunch of bikies and search them , the bikes, the whole lot - now is it illegal to be affiliated in a bikie gang? no, therefore are the cops discriminating? yes, imagine if they pulled over a whole bunch of cars full of aboriginals, automatically they would be screaming racism I guarantee it. The cops are leaving themselves wide open to a lot of things there and I think its very bad planning and bad business practice as such and one day the bikies are going to sue I think, if the bikies sue the coppers have problems as the bikies can affor much better lawyers and may even be lucky enough to get a magistrate thats on their books.
It looks to me Troy as if you have had a bad experience, and it is hard to forget these things, and we do publicize our bad experiences much more than we do our good ones, I cant remember the last time I read a post about someone being pulled over and let go without a fine because the copper was nice - and im sure it has happened, in fact it happened to me recently. It also does sound as if you copped a couple of not so switched on members.
It is important not to fool ourselves into thinking that coppers never pull over rustbuckets and falcons and commos as they do, believe me its just that none of us drive them so we don't know about it, and yes when they are pulled they get stickered too. Saying that the cops dont look twice at a rusted out datto because they arent imports is definitely not a fair statement. I don't know if you have noticed but I have been seeing a lot more marked vehicles on the road since "Uncle Karl" introduced the front line policing policy which is a damn good one if you ask me, and the more of a police presence we have the better, it should keep the road fools a little more quiet or push them out to places that they should be, like the end of pinjar rd if they feel that they really need to do burnouts etc... There is absolutely no excuse for it in the suburbs and the more people that get charged for it the better.
You'r not quite looking at the big picture I dont think Troy, you are saying things like lowering your suspension should be legal and having bigger tyres should be ok etc... Where yeah I also agree with what your saying however people chop springs, get suspension that is dangerously low and get tyres too big for the gaurds, these things are plain dangerous and have no place on any car, people need to look more at safety than wank factor but unfortunately dont seem to for reasons I fail to understand. As for the loud exhaust thing, I think your pretty close on that however I have heard some really bad sounding exhausts that are just plain loud which is annoying (Harley Davidsons), while not being dangerous as such they still give me the •••••••
There are a few cops that pure and simple have no idea and it is an embarrasment to everyone else. Generalizing about 6,000 cops which is roughly what WA has from a bad or a couple bad experiences is a bit rough I think. The anti hoon laws are a bit of a joke however taking some dickheads car away for "hoon" behaivour at an innapropriate location I am all for. As I said before if you feel that you absolutely have to do a burnout go into the middle of no where and do it, and if you want to try and hit 200 or whatever go and do it away from everyone else, I have been involved in a number of fatal car accidents through alcohol, speeding and reckless behaivour and also just unforseen circumstance and thanks to that I will not tolerate anything that will put people in danger, I doubt most of you would know what its like to have to tell someones parents their kids are dead thanks to a drunk driver, or a car driven by some ••••••• who thought he was a good driver and could handle anything that happens - its not fun I promise everyone that. Cars are weapons that is as simple as it gets there is no arguing that - however what is more dangerous than the car itself is the driver and if taking someones car off them for doing something stupid that DIDNT kill someone this time might make them think twice about doing the same thing again. Confiscating someone's car is nothing like stealing, it is protecting stupid and dangerous people from themselves and it is also protecting the innocent public from these clowns - including you and me. There is this thing in life that is so easy to follow - if you don't put yourself in a situation where a cop can take your car off you then you have nothing to worry about, honestly its as simple as that I cant see whats so hard to understand?
What you said about TRAFFIC cops finding murderers and rapists really does get under me so I am going to dish out some chop here haha. TRAFFIC cops are there to do TRAFFIC duties. HOMICIDE will be chasing murderers, CHILD PROTECTION SQUAD will be chasing rockspiders, GENERAL DUTIES will be dealing with your house break ins and so forth so dont start that please. You might not be hurting anyone in your car right now but if the cops pull you over for some stupid speed or trying to drift or drag race on the streets you may well hurt and or kill someone so no they will never leave you alone for that, thankfully.
Taking license away from DUI, and hoons is a good idea, unfortunately it is just such a long process and so many ways of getting out of it, and repeat offenders for driving under suspension is huge, some people will not touch car keys whilst under suspension and others will just go mental, the courts need to deal with these people more appropriately and stop letting people off for ridiculous technicalities, if they are a danger on the road give them an incentive (loss of license + vehicle) and they will stop.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:59 pm, by: Benny Gammelmark(Oldfield)
Yes, I thought 1.0 sounded like a lot. It's 0.1 as you said Jason.
I know I've been over the limit once - on a motorbike - almost killed myself. All skin from back, elbows, knees etc. gone. All the glass on my wristwatch was ground aways as well and the crash helmet was ready for the bin. Oh - and I didn't have a licence.
I was just lucky to get away with it I guess. It did give you a lesson on how much control you have when drunk.
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 11:07 pm, by: Stephen Hille(9zero)
Troy how can you honestly say that your not going to hurt anyone? Who's to say that while you are doing a drift somewhere some little kid isnt going to come out to look at the show, you get a bit carried away or there is a variable that YOU CANT CONTROL as there usually is for instance a bit of sand on the road, you go plowing into the kerb and take out the kid.
If you can GAURANTEE with NO doubt that while you are driving you cant kill anyone then I would back you in driving like a hoon anywhere you want completely, however you cant make that gaurantee, me as a more sedate driver I cant make that either and until the time that the gaurantee can be made I will stand up for what I say completely
Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 10:58 am, by: Troy Tappenden(Moredhel)
Stephen, I agree pretty well completely with everything you said. I am not going to argue because I agree with most of it. In the last post, I will clarify my situation for you, and I am pretty sure that you will end up agreeing with me that I am fairly safe when I do something stupid.
I don't drift. I don't try to drift. I will never kill anyone trying to drift because I don't try. I do however get the car a little sideways when I go around a corner due to power oversteer (Not drifting), but only if I can see that there are no other cars on the road and no pedestrians, i.e. bushes are cut back enough to see around the corner before you get there, for example. When my friends and I go out drag racing, we go out on the highway at night time where we might see about 5 cars in an hour. You can literally see cars coming from about 10 kms away from the headlights due o the relative flatness of the road. As soon as a car gets within a few kms, we stop. Spectators always stand behind the cars racing, so if someone loses control, there is no one to hit, except the car they are racing against.
Considering my location, there is no drag strip, no race tracks and no burnout pads, I think my group of friends are trying to do the right thing and be as safe as possible.
Now I understand that because I have told you this, you still have to pull everyone up anyway, you have to be looking out for the stupidest person on the road, not the safest.
It is refreshing to hear that a police person agrees with some of my views about discrimination and the police person's ability to detect problems with vehicles. Surely though if car has been lowered properly and safely with lowered spring etc and not chopped, that the police should allow this because it now handles better than a stock vehicle. Unfortunately as you mentioned, the police don't have the training and often, the interest, to know the difference. Bit of a catch 22. You can make you car safer, but it is illegal, or you can keep your car standard and it is legal, but no safer.
I do agree that if you are caught getting sideways, or racing or skidding, then you should be punished, I am not saying otherwise. I have never been caught skidding, or drifting or anything other than the occasional speeding fine, but never more than about 15-20 kms over the limit, so no huge fines or anything.
What does get me annoyed though is the police that are on a power trip. Ones that pull people up because of the fact that their car looks hot. Where there is smoke, there is not always fire, in this case. Police that deem cars unroadworthy because they don't know what they are doing or saying, only makes life difficult for drivers, and expensive. There should be some way to stop this from happening. For example. I get pulled over for having an exhaust too loud. I then have to take my car in to have it tested at my expense, and wastes my time. If it is found that my car is not to loud, then I should be elligable to receive money back from the police for wasting my time, as well as have the fee waived for the cost of the test on the car for it's exhaust volume. This will stop police form pulling over and yellow stickering cars because they feel like it, and it may make the police think twice before issueing a ticket or sticker because they may get a kick up the backside because the shire/council has had to re-imburse me money for my time wasted.
Police should not be allowed to get away with whatever they like with no repurcusions, otherwise you get what we have now, with cops issuing bullsh*t fines for no good reason.
One of my friends lost his license because he was on one point because he was fined and lost 1 demerit point because his washer bottle was not full. This job takes two seconds to remedy. The cops could have asked him to walk acros the street and buy a 1L bottle of water to fill it up with, then let him go, but because he owned a bright yellow R33 Nissan Skyline, they just wanted to issue the fine, and have a laugh at him because there was nothing he could do about it. That to me is badgering the public, and should not be tolerated at all. If he refused to fill it up, then fair enough, then a fine and points can be issued, but he should have had the chance to remedy the problem because it was so simple.
I do have to say one thing that will make you happy though Stephen. I will credit the police department of Roebourne, Wickham and Karratha. Most of the cops around here are really cool, and more often than not, will ask you to pop the bonnet just to see what is under it for interest, when they have no intention of booking you. They are very laid back and well respected around here. I have been in a few situations where the police around here have pulled me over for something I shouldn;t have been doing, like 5-10 kph over the limit, and I usually end up having a chat with them after they tell me to slow down. They dont have a chip on their shoulders and everyone gets along with them great.
On the other hand, police in Townsville Qld are going way overboard and are issuing fines (Such as the yellow R33 I mentioned before) for the smalles thing they can find, just to try to stop the hoons. They pretty much stopped the hoons about 6 years ago when they brought out a heap of new laws and started patroling with more police, but still the police are being really aggressive, and won't let you explain anything to them, and won't take any excuses. Police in Perth are nearly as bad.
Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 01:43 pm, by: Craig Webber(Soarr)
Troy This once again boils down to what is road safe and what is revenue raising. Eg: What's more unroad worthy, Car 10 to 20mm to low or leaking shocker,10 to 20 db to loud or no muffler and holes in the exhaust the list can go on & on road worthy or revenue raising. Here's one for you Stephen, 95% of pepole that were killed by hit and run drivers were in standed hight cars so are car to high ? , and we won't talk about bull bars being too high, we dont see them be made to lower there car now do we. Police can make a stand and have a say on road law but they don't.They dont have to inforce stupid laws.What they can do is stop being assholse and be abit more helpful, start haveing road worthy days where the young kids can get there cars check with out the fear of god being put in to them.This would go a long way with PR with young pepole.And the police mite lean a little bit about what makes a car road worthy and unroad worthy. In all the cars I have had, I have never been pulled by the cops and being giving a hard time I know that some kids and pepole give the cops a hard time but it goes both ways.Alittle understanding from both parties would go a long way.
Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 02:06 pm, by: Craig Webber(Soarr)
Can I also add to that,98% killed on the pacific Hwy were in standard cars and I would say that around 90 odd % national would be in standard cars so one would think we need to look at safety of standard cars.Not that a car is to loud or to low.
Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 02:46 pm, by: Craig Webber(Soarr)
Yes, but try get those statistics and it would be nice to see hoon car death to the family car. To see the old to the young dieing on the Pacific Hwy in ford,commdores,magners,vans mecs, but no straight hoon cars makes you start to think with 6 dead in eight weeks up here that not bad going. And all standard mum and dad cars can you see what I mean.I know the ststistics are not spot on but they would have to be dam close.So What I am saying is for the police to be fare.And know what they are doing and not just rev/rasising.
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Brand new tyres and all 
