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Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

Posts: 2591
Reg: 10-2005

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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 07:17 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any computer system is vulnerable to attack. Saying a system is "secure" just because you don't get a lot of viruses, sniffers etc written for it is just total BS. Windows has the largest user base, and therefore is subject to the greatest scrutiny by those looking for exploits. Simple as that.

I'm no Microsoft apologist, they make a lot of stupid mistakes - and I'd never choose to run a mission critical business application on one of their server platforms - BUT they do make a perfectly adequate personal operating system.
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 08:24 am, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don, those cats are having some sort of seizure.
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
I have WAY less Soarers than Hayden :-(

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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 11:19 am, by:  Don Bagnall (Baggs) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Epilepticats!
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

Posts: 723
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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 12:05 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 07:17 am:

Windows has the largest user base, and therefore is subject to the greatest scrutiny by those looking for exploits


I am fairly sick of hearing that line to be brutally honest. I say no excuse. It's the level of which windows machines get exploited that is the problem.

If my linux workstation got exploited, big whoop, running as an unprivileged user. Worst it can do is corrupt my profile. Simple create a new one, no harm done.

If Mircosoft could get there act together and implement proper user access control it would be a far more secure os. Don't get me started on Vista's UAC, that's about as useful as an ashtray on a motor cycle!!
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 01:35 pm, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Leon Wright wrote on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 12:05 pm:

I am fairly sick of hearing that line to be brutally honest. I say no excuse.




Maybe, but its true. OS-X would crumble just as quick if subjected to so many people looking for ways to make a name/get money or information/be an asshat, and Apple's claims to the contrary just make them look like fools. Thats all I'm saying. Like I said, I'm no Microsoft apologist, I just think its the pot calling the kettle black.
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 03:08 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dunno wouldn't say I know anything about OS-X. Apples cost to much for my liking and too limited for what I would do with one. I like the choice PC's offer me. The mac advertising is misleading, because the PC is more then microsoft, they are slowly losing market share and in time hopefully it will become more balanced.

My Current opinion @
http://blog.techieman.net/
Brenton Trafford
TryHard
SA
V8 Limited - UZZ31

Posts: 258
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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 05:08 pm, by:  Brenton Trafford (Traff) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 01:35 pm:

be an asshat




GOLD!!!!!!!! Asshat... love it. My personal favourites for quite a few years have been AssClown, or AssFruit and AssPaper. But AssHat has just been added to the list. Thanks.
Jeff Wilkins
TryHard
South Australia
JZZ30 GT-TL

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Monday, May 07, 2007 - 09:45 pm, by:  Jeff Wilkins (Calin) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 07:17 am:

Windows has the largest user base, and therefore is subject to the greatest scrutiny by those looking for exploits. Simple as that.




No, though Micro$oft would like you to think it was that simple.

The way in which *ix and OS-X deal with process security and user access is inherently more secure than Windows (lets leave alone the EXTRA vulnerabilities brought along by IE, Word and pretty much any other Microsoft product known to man).

The OS integration that makes Windows good to use is also what brings it down unfortunately.

Having said that I only use Linux for study purposes as I'm a gamer at heart and nothing offers better gaming performance (currently) than Windows XP.
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:04 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OS-X is based on NextStep, which is based on BSD Unix. BSD Unix is very easy to exploit in many, many ways. Now I'm not saying that Apple and NEXTCorp haven't done a lot of work to the base security system, but Unix is ALWAYS only as secure as the knowledge of person who sets it up allows, and I'm guessing that a standard OS-X install is probably pretty wide open. Its just nobody cares enough to try.
Simon Triantafillou
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer Turbo

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 09:13 am, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:04 am:

Its just nobody cares enough to try.




Precisely. I'm not advocating either operating system, but why would a "hacker" concentrate his efforts on a system with no "audience"? Far better for him/her to disrupt the masses than the minor crowd to gain notoriety.
Simon Triantafillou
Goo Roo
NSW
Soarer Turbo

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:09 pm, by:  Simon Triantafillou (Soarer) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lo and behold... and article released today I stumbled across:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=291226&source=rss_ news50
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

Posts: 726
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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:38 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, but disagree at the same time. The way things are setup in Mac OS-X and Linux are inherently more secure than windows in the way they operate. *Everything* is exploitable, I just find it laughable how Micro$oft claim Vista to be the most secure operating system ever and that other OS's should follow there example of User Access Control. I'm sorry the Vista UAC is like putting a condom on after you've already sowed your wild oats!!
Vinh Bui
Goo Roo
NSW
94 UZZ31 (V8) / 96 JZZ30 (TT) / 97 JZA80 (TT)

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 02:56 pm, by:  Vinh Bui (Hyudsjk) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loved that article from Maddox, Simon. Especially the bit where he gets to the second point.. I was on the ground crying from laughter hahaha
Troy Tappenden
TryHard
WA
JZZ30 (TT)

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm, by:  Troy Tappenden (Moredhel) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fact of the matter is, only the geeks complain about Microsoft, and they only complain to make themselves look like they know what they are talking about to other people. The average Windows user is flat out doing more than looking at something on the internet and writing an email, and the majority of people NEVER get hacked. Virus's are an annoyance, but with so many people trying to make virus's for Windows, is it any wonder there are so many? As the article Simon put up says, why would someone bother to make a virus for Mac when hardly anyone uses Mac's compared to Windows based PC's? There is not enough "gain" for the effort as compared to doing it for Windows.

Linux may be great for some people, but I tried Red Hat, and I couldn't even get it to format a second Hard drive on my PC, so I rang my mate that is an RHCE and even he couldn't figure out how to do it... In Windows I just go to Disk Manager and right click the Hard disk I want to format and then hit the format button and there you go, done... Try getting the average Joe to run with Fedora or Red Hat and see how long they last before giving up.

So, here are my points to people that want to bitch about Windows:

1: Learn about what you are talking about before you put your misguided opinions on the internet and make yourself look like a fool.

2: Microsoft is trying to make the most user friendly environment coupled with high security, which is not an easy task, short of having every packet coming or going throw up a request to you to authorise it, and even if it did, most people wouldn't understand what is being requested and muck it up.

3: Windows is stable. I work in one of the largest mining and resource companies in the world, and every PC and server runs on Windows XP for Desktop and laptops, and Windows Server 2000 or 2003 for the Servers. The Servers have months of uptime, and NEVER go down unless we tell them to or there is a hardware failure, which is not Microsofts fault. The desktop PC's have minor issues, and often the failures are related to 3rd party software, so again, not Microsofts fault. The faults that are Windows issues are few and far between.

From all reports, Mac's are pretty good, they can do quickly a lot of things that PC's do slower, so at the moment, Apple has a target audience. They are: 3D modellers, cartoonists, movie makers etc, non gamers paranoid about intrusions, and wanker, try hard geeks that want to bag PC's so they can be in the "in" crowd.

Mac users, leave us PC users alone. Mac users only run off their mouths because they are trying to make a point and to make themselves look cool. PC users let them run off their mouths because they know that they can run anything and everything they want, with little or no fuss. Grow up.
Daniel Czechowski
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Soarer GT-T

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 06:00 pm, by:  Daniel Czechowski (Dan) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mac sucks! Period.
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 06:08 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

Fact of the matter is, only the geeks complain about Microsoft


Self professed Geek I am; but that's a fairly broad generalisation. I know many non geeks that have the same opinion.



Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

but I tried Red Hat, and I couldn't even get it to format a second Hard drive on my PC


I wouldn't really call Red Hat a suitable desktop os. Much development has happened in the Ubuntu camp. The Desktop install loads up as a live disc and you can do everything graphically, including Format/Partition a hard disk.


Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

Learn about what you are talking about before you put your misguided opinions on the internet and make yourself look like a fool.


I don't think it is foolish to have an alternate view. After 10 years of working with Microsoft products I think I'm entitled to have a view :-)


Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

Microsoft is trying to make the most user friendly environment coupled with high security, which is not an easy task, short of having every packet coming or going throw up a request to you to authorise it, and even if it did, most people wouldn't understand what is being requested and muck it up.


Have you used Vista yet??


Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

Servers have months of uptime


Not really something to brag about, I have worked on Linux Boxes that have 5+ years of uptime. There is not a reason in the world you should have to restart a Linux box, short of hardware failure. The fair majority of time on a windows machine you have to, the rest of the time it's considered "good practice".


Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:

Mac users, leave us PC users alone.


Yeah, Mac users STFU
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:00 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll sit on Troy's side of the fence on this one.

I will say all the operating systems available have their merits, however Windows OS' are just easier.

Case closed.
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

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Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:13 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Callum Finch wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:00 pm:

Windows OS' are just easier


I beg to differ, I only started learning Linux early last yeah and I think it is easier for a lot of things. Not all, but that wouldn't be the fault of the the OS, that's more hardware manufacturers being in bed with M$.

Come on Callum, your usually good for some insightful comments!!
Callum Finch
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WA
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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 09:18 am, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Leon Wright wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:13 pm:

I beg to differ



Your 74 year old grand mother "wants to surf the email".

Your options: Fedora core or WinXP.

Imagine Fedora... a couple of months down the track a huge security flaw is found in it's kernal, you have to recompile.
OR... the graphics card burns out and a newer one is bought, recompile.

Sure she can get someone in to do it,, sure you can tell her how to do it,, but at the end of the day its a task you dont want to have to do.

WinXP you either just forget about patching because there are so many flaws anyway,, or just plug the device in and its all sweet yow!

(Thats a generalised sweeping statement, but i dont know where linux desktop os' packages are at these days).

And when i say easier i dont mean easier to use if you were living in an isolated little bubble in your own world where noone else existed.. i mean easier to use in the way that because of the way the OS market is built, everything is aimed to be easier for MS users.

Remember how annoyign Firefox was to use when it first got popular back in version 0.4 or whatever it was? The thing was impossible if you didnt have a clue.. thats what linux is.. impossible if you donthave a clue because the market is not geared up to be kind to it.
Leon Wright
DieHard
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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:28 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Callum Finch wrote on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 09:18 am:

Your options: Fedora core or WinXP


I'm guessing your like quite a few people, there is more to linux than Redhat!! Fedora Core is a waste of time. There are many distributions and many opinions but there are better ones as far as I've experienced. I think a 74 year old grandma would find it just as easy on say lets Ubuntu or Windows xp!

Ubuntu as long as you buy supported hardware (which is nearly everything apart from a few obscure things and don't tell me that Windows doesn't have any trouble with obscure devices as that would be a lie!) Run the desktop install, wait 20 - 40mins, done! No more configuration required to surf the web and check email. Unlike windows, spending hours downloading the latest drivers as the original CD drivers caused Blue Screens or were incompatible with some other driver! I haven't yet had to recompile a kernel on any of my Ubuntu installs. Installing nVidia drivers is a piece of cake and I could take my hard drive out of this computer, slap it in another one and it wouldn't even complain.

Try that in windows!!!


Callum Finch wrote on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 09:18 am:

everything is aimed to be easier for MS users.


Yes you are quite correct, but slowly but surely the market is changing. The OS Market has cried out for so long for competition, because sorry Microsofts development has become pretty stale and Vista is a good example of that. Lots of flashy stuff in the foreground, but basically still very similer to XP underneath it all (hello Windows ME the Second!).
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31

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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 02:12 pm, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually I'd say Vista is radically different underneath - not necissarily for the better though.

Can't comment much on Linux since I haven't used it for years (I stick to AIX, which as a server operating system is both very easy to install and to administer, and in my view is much superior to Windows for mission critical ERP solutions)

One of my customers does use Linux on their desktop systems for all their users, as well as several of their servers (basically everything except the AIX server) and they seem to have a very reliable and robust ICT network - though this is I think mostly because their ICT manager is a Linux guru of the highest order.
Callum Finch
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WA
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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 04:00 pm, by:  Callum Finch (Sigeneat) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever. =P I dont care anymore.

As for the whole vista deal.. its as revolutionary as XP is ... you just have to find all the because MS dont make it obvious..

However like XP you need to give Vista at least another 5-8 months before i will consider looking at it. Hopefully a service pack will be out in that time...
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
V8 UZZ31

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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 05:21 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mwahahaha my sheer persistence overrules

XP was revolutionary, I don't mind it as an OS. Vista is a mere face lift like WindowsME was to Windows98.
Troy Tappenden
TryHard
WA
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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 05:28 pm, by:  Troy Tappenden (Moredhel) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Leon Wright wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 06:08 pm:



Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:
Fact of the matter is, only the geeks complain about Microsoft



Self professed Geek I am; but that's a fairly broad generalisation. I know many non geeks that have the same opinion.




Yes, Mostly they get that opinion from geeks. Most general users don't have the brain power to use a PC let alone form an opinion about them. They just regurgitate what they hear from other people.


Leon Wright wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 06:08 pm:



Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:
Microsoft is trying to make the most user friendly environment coupled with high security, which is not an easy task, short of having every packet coming or going throw up a request to you to authorise it, and even if it did, most people wouldn't understand what is being requested and muck it up.



Have you used Vista yet??




that was pretty much what I was referring to because Microsoft have been hassled so badly lately about their security, that they now have that stupid Protection mode that asks you if you want to do what you just told it to do every 2 seconds... I have been running Windows Vista 64 Bit for about 2 months now, and I believe it is faster than XP by a long shot, and not just for gaming, but for navigating your way around. Opening the All Programs under Start is instant, opening Internet Explorer is nearly instant, search function under run is instant. I haven't found anything that is slow under Vista, and no, I am not running it on a Monster of a PC...

Leon Wright wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 06:08 pm:



Troy Tappenden wrote on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 04:18 pm:
Servers have months of uptime



Not really something to brag about, I have worked on Linux Boxes that have 5+ years of uptime. There is not a reason in the world you should have to restart a Linux box, short of hardware failure. The fair majority of time on a windows machine you have to, the rest of the time it's considered "good practice".




We don't have the Servers go down for no reason though. We take them down for whatever reason is required, such as ILO/RILOE issues, or patching every once in a blue moon, it is extremely rare per server, and it is only usually ever a reboot from a patch, not a full shutdown. I don't believe that Microsoft Server should suffer from a reliability stigma because our uptimes may be months instead of years, when the time spent down is only the time it takes to reboot in the middle of the night when no one is using them. If they were just failing due to poor programming, then yeah, I think downtime would be an issue, but as it stands, I don't see any issue with it.

Any idiot can sit there and rebutt everything I say, but what I am saying is from experience and talking to people that know what they are talking about, not because I read in a magazine once that MS had some firewall issues and like that. People need to do their own homework, and do something for themselves. We shouldn't be relying on Microsoft to make their system perfect. If you think you are going to get hacked, get a Firewall, if you keep getting virus's and Malware FFS stop going to Porn sites, and get an Antivirus Program, geeze, do you really have to depend on someone else to think for you completely? How do you make it through life like that?

I mean, I am not going to sit here and say that Microsoft is the best and we should all give in to the Monopoly, but what I am saying is that more and more people these days are getting on the bandwagon and paying out on Microsoft just because it is the cool thing to do.

For what Microsoft is, and aimed at, it is the best, which is why it is the most popular. It is like saying a Falcon should be a Ferrari. Ferrari's are the best right? they go fast, the corner hard, they look great. Problem with them is they have no boot, chew the fuel and cost a tonne. Same with Mac OS vs Windows Vs Linux and Unix, they have their purposes and are good at them.
Leon Wright
DieHard
WA
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Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 06:10 pm, by:  Leon Wright (Techman) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I agree band wagons are bad. Hence why I'm dispelling the myth that the Linux desktop is years behind the Microsoft Desktop and there is more to linux than red hat or fedora core. I agree it's not quite there, but it is getting quite close and for the power user nothing beats it. The things I can do on my notebook with linux would cause me the need to reboot Windows several times a day due to either slow downs or crashes.

Just dispelling myths here :-)

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