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Dragan Vidic
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 04:00 pm, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Streets of Belgrade, capital of Serbia


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Peter Nitschke
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 04:24 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There must be a Soarer up for auction. :-)
Miles Baker
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 05:36 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 07:51 am:

God damn religious bullshit. So much suffering for a bunch of man-invented crap.




Right on.

Dragan,
AFAIK, the KLA was never actually listed as a terrorist organisation by the US. It was referred to as such by a couple of politicians, but never listed.

Sorry mate but it all sounds a bit odd and it sounds like there's gonna be violence again to me.
Miles Baker
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 06:30 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Rioters set fire to the US embassy in Belgrade on Thursday, killing one person, while more than 90 people were injured in clashes with Serbian police in unrest following Kosovo's independence.

The burnt body found in the embassy was not identified, but an embassy spokeswoman said the person was not a staff member.

"All embassy staff are accounted for," Rian Harris said.

Thirty-two police officers were among those injured in the clashes, which followed a large but peaceful protest against Kosovo's declaration of independence on Sunday.

With no police in sight, several hundred young men dressed in hooded sports tops and scarves threw flares and stormed the US mission, sparking a fire that blazed for more than an hour.

Other embassies were also targeted in the hours-long rampage, mainly those of Western countries that have recognised Kosovo's independence from Serbia, whose opposition to the move is backed by Russia in the UN Security Council.

Down the road from the US embassy, a German embassy guard house was burning, while a car was on fire outside the Canadian diplomatic mission. Other embassies targeted included those of Bosnia, Croatia and Turkey.




Certainly not making a good impression. And does that last part mean Bosnia and Croatia also support Kosovo? Aren't those two other neighbouring countries and parts of the former Yugoslavia??
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 06:38 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without consulting Wikipedia at all but admitting to some research on the web as well as of my own history books, I would like to throw in a few semi-related comments.

It does a grave disservice to suggest this is a problem which started in about 1990 or 1991. These dates are immediately after Milosevic withdrew rights of autonomy for Kosovo. How about we track back over a few hundred years and the rarity of Serbian control of Kosovo? For that video to suggest that all would have been well after a minor war but for NATO and UN intervention in the 90s is poppycock, except from a Serbian point of view.

The problem with even what I said there is that it too picks a moment in history and doing that always fails to resolve a dispute so far as I can see.

The Balkan countries are a mix of Orthodox Christian, Roman Catholic and Muslim believers mostly of Slavic descent apart from Albanians whose Illyrian ancestry is largely assimilated into the Slavic. How is this group of common ancestry and different religions supposed to manage a non-discriminatory government? No prior government (Serbian or any other) has managed it except on their own report. Every governing or invading group has moved populations, changed religions or simply massacred the inconvenient to achieve its ends, then declared a new reality. Each of these oppressions (and indeed they are) becomes "just cause" for the next round of oppression by the other party when the wheel of power turns.

Incidentally, apart from Kosovo, there are current views in the respective acquisitive countries that Bulgaria should acquire Eastern Macedonia (from Macedonia), that Albania should acquire Western Macedonia (from Macedonia) and Macedonia itself would like not only to fend off those predators but also to get its hands on part of Greece which is historical Greek Macedonia. One wonders why?

Should I mention that homo sapiens emerged from Africa as a single group about 60,000 years ago, and we are all descended from them, split far more by religions than by appearance or even language?

For those not up on the details of the entrails, I found some web sites which might help you. The first part of this one, Historical Background, tells you something about the religious and ethnic mixes in the Balkans. After that section, it is largely a Bosnian perspective which can safely be ignored.
http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/edu_bos.html

Here is an interesting opinion piece on events of the last twenty years.
http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/news/summer2007/kuperman_oped.php
and another
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/crisis_and_reform_a_turnaround_in_bosnia

Caveat: Do not take those opinion pieces as comprising comprehensive comment or ones with which I generally or wholly agree. The gist of my opinion is along the same lines as those of Matthew and Miles.

In answer to Dragan's initial question, it is rationally impossible to support either Serbia or Albania in a clear-cut way in this dispute.
Dragan Vidic
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 06:43 pm, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 05:36 pm:




It has very little to do with religion like i said but anyways.

I agree Mike. Sh%t is going to hit the fan.
As far as i know the KLA was on the list (I read it in a US news article not a serb propaganda one) but it could be bull$hit.

Makes no difference what sort of impression we try to make. They will always find the worst one and multiply it by 10 before they relise it to the public, and do the opposite for the albanians. Thats just how it works.

Anyways im off to the protest to do my bit.

Cheers
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 07:10 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If has very little to do with religion, then what is the issue amongst you fellow Slavs? Tell me please. Considering the Serbs long term lack of historical ownership of the site, why is Kosovo significant if not for 1389?

Incidentally, you published a propaganda map of christian sites desecrated. I have seen corresponding propaganda from muslims of counts of mosques desecrated while the jackboot was on the other foot. Was that a secular issue?
Aaron Mead
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 08:53 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 06:38 pm:

Should I mention that homo sapiens emerged from Africa as a single group about 60,000 years ago,





In Theory.
David Vaughan
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 09:41 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, if they emerged as a single pair 6008 years ago there is no difference in the emergence of all from a small homogeneous group or pair so I don't think we need to go to that argument for the purposes of this one.
Dragan Vidic
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:01 pm, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Dave I posted that before reading your post.

The problem didn’t start in 1990. 1989 is the year when Kosovo Serbs had finally had enough and decided to protest and when Milosevic and all that happened. It started decades before that.

If religion is "THE PROBLEM" then please explain to me why Muslim Albanians and catholic Albanians get along yet hate the Serbs. Please explain to me why catholic Cros and Muslim Bosnians fought together against Serbs. Please explain to me why in some regions Serbs and Cros, together fought against Bosnians and in other regions Serbs and Bosnians fought together against Cros. And im talking about the Bosnian war in the 1990s. You probably don’t know this because CNN didn't want you to know it. It would've looked bad because the west was supporting both of them against Serbs and to seen the two fight would've made no sense. I, on the other hand, was there and that’s how I know it.

Yes Kosovo is the Serb Jerusalem, no doubt about it, but we're not fighting because it’s the MUSLIM Albanians who are trying to take it away from us. It would be no different if it was a Maso majority in Kosovo trying to declare independence, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't believe in evolution so don’t worry about the 60,000 years and the homo sapiens, simply because there is no evidence to support its claims. Having said that, no, I don’t have evidence that God exists, I just believe He does.
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:05 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just stating that its still a theory, just as the pair that theoretically emerged 6008 years ago :-)

But seriously, the links you posted, whoa, what a mess. I mean where do we (we as a people even? We as a people under those who have power?) draw the line.

As history sees it, its in the eye of the beholder, but moreso its in the control of who teh wheel of power favours on the day yeah?

I really cant see the blakans EVER being sorted, theres just too much underlying vengeance, hate, spite, and also injustice that perhaps it needs to be sorted out the old fashioned way.

Nobody wants a war, nobody wins a war. But looking over the history of the place, maybe they'd be best left to fight it out, and may the best er...group of humans win? The only losers will be the innocent as usual. Damn, talk about a rock and a hard place.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left"- somone famous.
Miles Baker
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:21 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Aaron Mead wrote on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:05 pm:

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left"- somone famous.




That was Bertrand Russell.. perhaps the most famous author of books on atheism and the danger and stupidity of religion, of all time. Glad to see you quoting a reasonable source Aaron

Sounds to me that much like the rest of the world, this area is one that will be filled with conflict for centuries to come. It may have started out as a religious conflict, or a tribal one.. and now it is mixed up with religion and nationalism. Just any excuse for people to hate their neighbours and start a war. I just hope there's no war there in about 6 months as I'd really like to include Dubrovnik in my "world tour of europe" bike holiday.

People just can't seem to get along and it pisses all over my holiday plans. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Aaron Mead
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:57 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh ye of misplaced faith, I got from an xbox game :-) Medal of Honour 4: Airbourne. Still a good quote though.


But yeah, its wierd isnt it. Maybe its easier to see form abroad like we are, but youd think that after a time, a people, a group of people would come to see that picking up a gun just doesnt work and the hundreds of years of fighting are pretty well proven, and the most likely people to die wont want to be involved or have anything to do with it, i.e. innocent victims/collateral.

I know thats a farkern big call, but seriously, neither sides (in the Balkans or in the Middle East) are going to give an inch are they when it comes to historically significant battles?

Dragan has made it clear that its not really a religious thing, which is a good step in the right direction.

Its a shame though that its all going to be antagonised by foreign do-gooders, foreign do-badders (?) and foreign money takers.

BUT, it would have to be a two way street if the superpowers were to back off.

Id expect that any who were fortunate enough to leave the country in search for safer pastures would be happy when they arrived in safer pastures and wouldnt stir the pot from afar, because that would be just the same as the powers that be causing trouble from abroad eh? Goose gander.

And, while it must be hard to leave your homeland where you, your family, and your friends grew up, you cant really expect the country that offers refuge to get involved. I mean, in all cases where war breaks out, people who have seeked refuge for fear of their lives are not afriad to ask the country of refuge to do something about whats going on in their homeland. But rarely do they wish to return home once the war/danger is over (timorleste for example, and nor is their belief so strong that they are willing to return and answer the call to fight.

Not that I dont want people coming to Australia for the purpose of refuge, I just think that if you are fortunate to make it here and want to stay, then make your life HERE. Forget whats going on over there. Make it successful and honest and while thats easy for me to say, Im sure the dead dont care anymore, the dead cant help you, and if they could Im sure they'd say "Make us proud in your new home, honour us by succeeding in life, not in death'.


Yes, its a bloody big ask. But what else is there?
Michael O'Driscoll
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:10 pm, by:  Michael O'Driscoll (Remickz) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just think it's proposterous that here you are talking about being in the war that happened in the 90s and witnessing all these "hidden" truths that the rest of the world didn't see... How old were you back then? My girlfriend and her family were there, her dad had to fight as the serbs invaded their city, and he saw the exact same war, but through different eyes. All of this is just perceptions of things through different eyes, so who CARES what the truth of the "nature" of this is.

The fact is, of which you've agreed upon, is gonna hit the fan... I mean, what's the point in supporting something that will just result in that outcome? It's all in the past... and you live in a country that's half way around the world. If this is such a passion to you, go back to Serbia and do all you can and want to try make your voice heard. But you've just gotta let it GO.
Michael O'Driscoll
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:13 pm, by:  Michael O'Driscoll (Remickz) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Totally agree Aaron
Dragan Vidic
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Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:42 pm, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok...now, where did I say that serbs were the good guys and everyone else was bad?
I don't think i could've made it any clearer when i said that all sides committed war crimes yet you guys were only shown one side.

Yes I'm sure your girlfriend and her family had their city invaded by the serbs just as did my family by the cros and bosnians. I never said we were the good guys, just that the west was on their side and showed you what they wanted you to see.

Ummm....do you even know what im supporting??? Clearly not so here it is:

"LETTER FROM THE SERB GOVT TO DIASPORA

Respected countrymen,

In the difficult historical situation Serbia has found itself in, after the unlawful act of tearing away Kosovo and Metohija from Serbia, we call upon you, in a peaceful and proper way to organise protests in the cities and places where you live, with which you will be showing your solidarity towards the Serb people in Kosovo and Metohija.

We are calling on people who live in the diaspora, for a proper reply to the current situation, to organise peaceful protest, by bringing to the world's attention that we will never accept the independence of Kosovo and Metohija, nor abstain from the struggle for our legitimate interests. Against our will a part of our state has been torn away, which represents a historical punishment, a European people losing a part of their territory, and in that way a legitimate democracy is being chastised.

We are advising to you that the protest be held on Sunday the 24th of February (local time), or in the next 7 days, which in doing this the diaspora will be showing their unity and communal spirit.

We are appealing to all, that to the demonstrations and meetings which you are organising, no partyist symbols be displayed, nor propagation of any anti-Western placards or sentiment, because any provocative incident would harm the noble struggle which the state of Serbia and her institutions are lobbying for in the defence of Kosovo and Metohija.

Call upon your friends, neighbors and colleagues in the countries in which you live, so that they can help you in the peaceful protests against the dirty breaking of international law.

After the meet is held, we suggest that the organisers write a protestual letter to the relevant state institutions so that the protest has a formal aura.
Serbia will not surrender, we will continue our struggle for a lawful end to the current situation diplomatically, through contact with international organisations like the OEBS and the European Council (EC), the Security Council and General Parliament of the UN. On this path we will continue to press for entry into the European Union, because only a strong, economically prosperous country, which is not isolated, is in the position to fight for its interests.
Once again we call upon you to give your voice against the independence of Kosovo and Metohija, through the organisation of peaceful protests and demonstrations, while the Ministry of the Diaspora is of service to help with all information and suggestions.

Ministry of the Diaspora
Republic of Serbia"

(this is not the original translation but its close enough)



With that attitude perhaps you should complain to the Aust. gov about fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq as 9/11 attacks happened in the USA and it had nothing to do with Australia or write to Green Peace telling them the whales aren't Australian and they should just "let it go".


Tell me Michael, did my participation in the protest offend you in any way?
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 12:01 am, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do agree that it was wrong for the US, as a member of the UN to recognise the state of Kosovo, if it has indeed been done so illegally, and against the protocols of the UN accord of which it is amember, if such a thing is really possible.

However, if things get to the point where a situation like this is allowed to happen (a state declaring its independance from the motherland) then surely, surely there must be a very serious underlying problem that needs addressing first?

I mean, if Western Australia was to some how reach a point of declaring its independance (which I could only see happening in the same manner as kosovo: a majority of people who share the same religion or language or appearence or ancestral background, or a combination of all) it would first want to have good reason, second be able to stand on its too feet and thirdly it would have to have enough support internally to accomplish it.

Has Kosovo tried in the past to become independant, and has it given its reasons prior to this outburst at all?
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 12:17 am, by:  Michael O'Driscoll (Remickz) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey man, i'm not trying to have a stab at you perosnally or anything, nor am I trying to distinguish who is the "good guy and the bad guy".
I mean, in war, is there EVER a good guy or bad guy?? As far as I know, Kosovo celebrated because they were so "unlawfully torn away" from mamma Serbia... what kind of indication does that give?
Not everyone condones what the Australian government does or does not do... but whilst we are Australian citizens, living in Australia, it's our governement and we deal with it.
We do not live in Serbia though, so what should it matter?! "Historical PUNISHMENT" they CHEERED for crying out loud? History cannot be CHANGED how can it be PUNISHED? There's no crime done here...
Your participation in the protest doesn't offend me, i just find it a bit to much, i can not see any positive effect of protesting in melbourne, or australia, to resolve an issue in Serbia / Kosovo.
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 01:06 am, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No they haven’t tried in the past. Well, they were "mistreated" in the 1990's. What was happening for 30 years prior that isn’t all that important (to the USA anyways).

Michael, I think you should do a little bit of research before you decide to comment. But never mind, I’ll do it for you. SERBIA, a country where Serbs and other people live. Kosovo, part of Serbia, a province, state, whatever you want to call it, (inside Serbia).

There are 2 million people in Kosovo. 90% are Albanian, 10% Serbs. Albania is a neighbouring country and a large number of Albanians have been crossing the border illegally for years, not to mention they breed like rabbits. (not being racist but Albanians usually get married very young and have huge families.)

Now, they celebrated because that’s what they wanted. However 10% of Serbs (200,000) don’t want that, nor do the other 7 million throughout the rest of serbia and a few million world wide.

Are we on the same page?

...

Our Government. Key word there is "Our". The Government is responsible and representative to the people of the country.

As a Democracy we have the right to vote and therefore a right to be represented by people we see fit. The Government can't go about changing laws unless it is what the people want. But of course like everywhere else you can't please everyone so with an issue like this where there would be sides 'for and against' some time could at least be given to the topic before deciding on the actions regarding it instead of just kissing the USA's ass.

"We do not live in Serbia though, so what should it matter?!"

Like I said before we don't live in the USA either so why should that affect us with the Iraqi and Afgan war? It shouldn't but it does. Keeping in mind that the main man they are after in Afghanistan (Osama) has visited Kosovo and sent his men to fight against the Serbs. But like I said earlier they are not called terrorists in Kosovo but freedom fighters.
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 10:19 am, by:  Michael O'Driscoll (Remickz) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Dragan Vidic wrote on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 01:06 am:

Michael, I think you should do a little bit of research before you decide to comment. But never mind, I’ll do it for you. SERBIA, a country where Serbs and other people live. Kosovo, part of Serbia, a province, state, whatever you want to call it, (inside Serbia).



As far as i can see, its been all over the news, Kosovo is now independent, hence the Serbia / Kosovo remark.

No matter what we want to happen, Australia will stay with USA, personally i dont think we should have ben in iraq etc, but we were.
When it comes down to it though, if the choice is there, im sure our government will side with USA over Serbia, and i doubt and minor protesting will change their attitude at all.
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 10:41 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have previously referred to the questionability of the long term historical rationale for Kosovo being part of Serbia and external evidence about this appears well enough read and understood by most posters here. I do not accept territorial arguments on that score. I find them understandable in the earlier term Dragan used, "Jerusalem", but do not support that either as I have made clear.

Good set of posts, Aaron and Michael.
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 10:58 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Were things much better when it was all called Yugoslavia and run by Tito?
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 11:14 am, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Historical PUNISHMENT" they CHEERED for crying out loud?"

Historical PUNISHMENT for the Serbs. Albanians cheered, NOT SERBS.

Yes I know they will and I know changing anything is next to impossible but two wrongs don't make it right. Australian people have the right to know both sides of the story. They have the right to know that their government fights "terrorism" on one side of the world and supports it on the other. They have the right to know that laws have been broken here and ignored. That way, when a body bag comes home from Iraq/Afghanistan, they'll have some explaining to do instead of just blaming the terrorists.

You probably know nothing about the Albanian mafia in Europe either. People smugglers, drug dealers, bank robbers throughout Europe. These are the people who will be running "Independent Kosovo" together with their KLA friends.


The situation is very complicated whether you look at historically or politically, today. That doesn't mean that taking it away from Serbia will solve all problems. Kosovo is a massive economical loss to Serbia as well as historical and religious. It's not the stealing of land and destruction of religious monuments that has us Serbs all fired up, it’s the principal. It's just wrong. I know it, you know it, G. Bush knows it and so does Rudd.
Dragan Vidic
DieHard
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 04:01 pm, by:  Dragan Vidic (Soarer_ttt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnlAbfpycws
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
ACT
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Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 08:11 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...which video confirms my comment in my last post.

Fervent belief in symbolic significance makes people kill where no rational analysis would allow it.


quote:

You probably know nothing about the Albanian mafia in Europe either. People smugglers, drug dealers, bank robbers throughout Europe. These are the people who will be running "Independent Kosovo" together with their KLA friends.


Jeez! They sound as bad as the bloody Jews in Europe last century! Gotta find someone to kill off that lot! Poor old Serbian Slobodan did his best but unfortunately more democratic Serbs removed him before he could do the job properly!


Don't give us this f^cking shjit.

Should you wonder why I chose my Personal Quote?

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