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Ben Kelly
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Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 06:13 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok so I am studying for a masters degree in social health. The course is targeted at people likely to become (or who already are) counsellors. As a heterosexual male I am feeling very marginalised by the pervasive negative comments toward the male of our species. I'm especially offended as these people are or are likely to become counsellors. For my peace of mind i was hoping a few of good sirs (or ladies) might comment on the following website (its from U.K) :

http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm
Peter Nitschke
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Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 06:42 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a huge read, I will have to come back to it.

This whole domestic violence issue, I can't personally relate to it.

Apart from perhaps sibling rivalry as a child, no violence - emotional or physical, has been a factor in either my family life growing up, or my life now with a family of my own. I would never even call my wife a mongrel or worse in private, let alone in public.

What is disappointing, but not overly surprising, is the amount of spin people will generate to make their case sound valid.

With the amount of spin we are now subjected to from across the spectrum, from our political leaders to local peer group wannabe leaders, it is surprising that more people aren't a bit cynical and try to find the facts before just nodding their head to the spin masters.
Ben Kelly
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Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 07:06 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Peter. It sounds like you are disbelieving of the article which is ok. A couple of the things did sound a little bit suspect. However with the prevailing feminist ideology I would think that its worthwhile for men to adopt a perhaps legitimate alternate approach. Working in the field I am finding that it is men that are most often disempowered (although admittedly this may be due to my own bias). Thanks for the response.
Bruce Passfield
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Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 09:35 pm, by:  Bruce Passfield (Bruce) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben I have not read the article, but I believe what has happened in today's society (teenagers or kids showing no respect etc), Is that Men's role in society has all but disappeared. We have taken a back role in raising children,

Take the goings on in the single parent families etc. Today women have taken over ALL the tasks of the father. And if we try and question anything we are classed by the lefty elite as wife bashers and child molesters. Having two teenage boy's myself, I do not have any disciplinary authority whats so ever, And kids these days know that.

Kids are told at school,university, courts and the many government bodies that nobody can touch them. Women have played a big role in "neutering" men. Try telling your kid what to do, he goes to Mum and she over rules the father, Barrack for your kid at a sporting event, and your a pushy violent parent.

My wife had an accident to her face a while ago and when I took her to hospital they would not let me see her for two hours because they where telling my wife "Your husband did it didn't he!!.

The only group who currently do not have an excuse for what they do are males I.E Kids don't know the difference between right or wrong. They where affected by their up bringing, They where expressing themselves Or they are just kids having fun.

Women have PreMT, PostMT, menopause, battered wife syndrome,Prenatal, postnatal and Maunchauson by proxy (Whatever it's called) etc etc. While us men have no excuse, we are even told that "We are old enough to know better there fore we have the book thrown at us. I challenge anyone to HONESTLY say that todays society is better off because of the social engineeering. LESS RIGHTS AND MORE RESPONSIBILITIES.

Rant over (My wife has just told me to go down and fix my kid's car, While he plays x-box)
Mike Bradberry
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 08:22 am, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, I have had a lot to do with mens issues over the past number of years. I have attended many mens groups, intensive and life changing retreats and run mens groups now for about 3 years.
Most of the things I find in men is their lack of power. I don't mean power over another, but self power and how to use it.
Many men are confused about where they are in a relationship and are definitely concerned when kids are told to be aware of strange men. It seems we are often labled as guilty until proven innocent.
Unfortunately we have footballers as role models who frequently bash, hit, bite and knee their opponents and are often seen as heroes.
Where are all the positive male role models we need to look up to?
Getting back to running mens groups, I am finding it very difficult to get men to attend these meetings. I feel it may be fear of what they may find out about themselves, including the positives. Maybe like me, they were brought up without a great deal of praise for something well done.
Peter Nitschke
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 12:49 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ben, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing out that I personally don't relate due to no experience. I do however, relate to the spin involved, eg:

"By far the worst distortion of the numbers of battered women comes from Miami talk show host Pat Stevens, who appeared on a CNN show called "OJ on the Air" in June. She estimated the true number of battered women is 60 million. No one bothered to tell Stevens that 60 million is more than 100% of all the women in the entire country who are currently in relationships with a man."

Pat Stevens should have been seriously discredited for making such a claim, but the next question is, why wasn't she questioned over the obviously misleading figures?
Peter Nitschke
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 12:51 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most men might avoid such groups, as we are brought up to deal with things ourself, and just get on with it.
Don Bagnall
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 12:55 pm, by:  Don Bagnall (Baggs) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A very interesting read.
Peter Nitschke
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 01:07 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should just clarify too, I am referring to the spin as pointed out by the article, not inferring that the article itself was spin. :-)
Ben Kelly
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 03:08 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys. Peter you're right, i got the wrong end of the stick. You are right about the spin. What I feel is personally the most insulting though is particular advertising campaigns. Im thinking of the Fernwood Fitness Centre campaign which featured a woman holding two basketballs (from memory) with the slogan, 'you won't find any balls at fernwood', or the finger gesture in the 'speeding, no one thinks big of you' campaign. Then there are the endless tv shows and advertising which show males as useless bumbling fools. As women climb the corporate ladder, delay or reject having children and men are encouraged into feeling bad for not cooking for instance (I'm thinking of Jamie Oliver's recent statement that women should refuse to have sex with men until they start cooking)then men are being left with no legitimate role in society.
David Vaughan
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 03:21 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am unsympathetic on a point there, Why shouldn't men cook as a "legitimate role", or in fact as a rather fine role model for some of the sharing needed for both to have careers, unless you think women should stay at home and learn to be stupid?

A secondary benefit is that, no matter how good a cook your partner is, they will serve better meals if they have to cook half as often. Plus, you get more sex. Just ask Jamie
Ben Kelly
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 03:45 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David, theres nothing wrong with men cooking, vacuuming or knitting even. I'm an excellent cook. I just think that encouraging females to withhold sex to get their way is very unhealthy (for both the male and female). Im sure his comments were in jest, but the portrayal of the male as a sex driven fiend who should be controlled by the woman is a bit offensive. In fact even the term 'withholding sex' is loaded. Why is having sex a right that should be earned? i always thought of it as mutual gratification by two people that are attracted. And by the way i get plenty of it. although i do cook a lot..hmm..
Miles Baker
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 04:33 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Women. They're all crazy and dangerous. I try to stay the hell away from them.
Ben Kelly
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 05:05 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hahahahahaha. best laugh ive had for a long time.
Jeff Bedsor
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Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 06:52 pm, by:  Jeff Bedsor (Jeff_bedsor) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, this is Jeff's wife and I am a counsellor, as well as a coordinator of a women's refuge and the posts make very interesting reading. It is great to see more guys getting involved in social welfare/health studies as it has been a more women dominated area in recent times.
Some of you guys sound really hard done by and that it's all the women's fault for where you are. Each relationship is different and its what you have learnt from growing up that predicts how your relationships are today.
You have to admit that for centuries women have been the underdogs and women have come out standing up for themselves and are fighting for whats necessary, for what we need, which has been difficult in a male dominated world.
My belief about how things are today is that we as women and a lot of men have been teaching our kids to speak out and speak up for themselves, especially as there was so much childhood sexual abuse and not by strangers either but in our own families. We have been raised up through fear with a rather large power imbalance and this is where we as adults now are learning to find for ourselves just as much for women as men. I am always hearing "I wish my husband would attend these courses/groups with me so we can both understand" but most workshops and groups are frequented by women and very few men.
So guys if you think the balance is more in favour of women and not men, do what we did, we got out there and fought for what we needed and through this we are getting what we want. And if you do, you will be really surprised in how many women there are out there that will back you all the way.
Ben Kelly
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Monday, June 02, 2008 - 07:03 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jeff's wife. You're quite right in my humble. however the evidence seems that men are not too interested in attending groups or speaking up in any way (although there are some groups doing great work). This is reflected by Mikes comments. As Peter alluded to, men just get on with it. The fact that men don't act like women and organise in the same way is ok. Men just don't seem to like that sort of stuff. Men tend to focus on practical solutions to real problems rather than self analysis. The solution therefore would appear to lie in policy reform. I also don't think it be a requirement that women back men all the way, that seems a rather curious assumption. I would think that rather than men collectively organising it should be a matter of policy, and of legal reform. Let us not have a sex war with two militant opposing groups.
Ben Kelly
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Monday, June 02, 2008 - 07:21 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just another thing. I see both men and women as a matter of course for counselling. However a couple of cases spring to mind. A man recently saw me and told me he was diagnosed with breast cancer. He had a lump on his chest for years and he was concered that never did he think he had breast cancer. He thought only women got it. He saw the ads on tv etc but never once was it mentioned that men could also get breast cancer. It would have taken say 3 seconds to mention that.

Second case a male was being bashed and stalked by a male partner. He went to call docs but the pamphlet he was given (he showed me) gave him the feeling that men were not legitimate victims of domestic violence. The pamphlet stated that there were female counsellors taking the calls. He decided not to call.

Other cases spring to mind eg of a man who saw me who was repetedly abused by his female partner. A docs worker told him although he may have been injured he wasnt in fear. He told me he actually was in fear that he would loose his home and kids. When i checked on his case with DoCs it was level 3, as the kids were generally not around when the violence started. Level 3 complaints i know from experience almost never gets acted on. He was too ashamed to call the police.
Matthew Sharpe
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 08:12 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Peter Nitschke wrote on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 06:42 pm:

Try telling your kid what to do, he goes to Mum and she over rules the father




You know, I wouldn't have thought twice about this thread before this weekend, but I had some interesting experiences while staying with the family over the weekend. I was told off twice by female relatives for trying to tell my young nephews and nieces how to behave - both very trivial matters, and in both cases the parents were not involved & I was doing nothing different than the woman scolding me would have done in the same situation, yet I was basically told it was not my place to tell the children how to behave, despite the fact that I am a 33 year old, mature responsible, well mannered man. In the future I'll just ignore when my nephews and nieces are misbehaving as its clearly just not my place to intervene.
Peter Nitschke
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 12:45 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Kelly wrote on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 07:03 pm:

Men tend to focus on practical solutions to real problems rather than self analysis


Very true. When a woman complains about something to a man, they get practical advice on how to solve the problem. When a woman complains about something to a woman, they get sympathy and understanding. Guess which they actually prefer at that point in time? :-)
Glen Muller
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 01:33 pm, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny this pops up while I'm procrastinating over a Sociology essay on the dimensions of gender inequality in Australia.
Peter Nitschke
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 01:52 pm, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Procrastination is like wanking, it seems a good idea at the time, but eventually you realise you are just f#cking yourself.
Glen Muller
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 01:57 pm, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

F*** Yourself, a great song by the legendary Frank Zappa.
Don Bagnall
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 04:51 pm, by:  Don Bagnall (Baggs) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Matthew Sharpe wrote on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 08:12 am:

yet I was basically told it was not my place to tell the children how to behave



I have no qualms about telling children off, if they're behaving badly.
If the parents can't/won't do it, then rest assured I'll do THEIR job for them............and if that is not acceptable........tough sh!t!

Like Matthew, I was brought up to be well mannered, polite and respectful of others.........Seems these days it's hands OFF parenting, and the little darlings must be allowed to "Express themselves" without restriction.

Too much PC bollocks me thinks!

OK, rant over.........please continue. This is an interesting topic.

Ben Kelly
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Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 06:14 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don, i think your rant is valid, at least as valid as mine :-) interesting about the debate around punishment or even smacking though. Have you ever seen those wildlife documentaries where the lioness smacks the lion cubs over the head when they annoy her?

Hmm.. at least the law in regard to smacking is pretty reasonable i think the current status quo is that its ok if its below the shoulders and leaves no marks which stay for an unreasonable amount of time. Of course you have to remember that there is some irony in punishing children for violence by hitting them.

Also boys tend to be more rambunctious than girls and i would suggest that allowing them to run around hitting each other, climbing trees and getting into scrapes might be ok. Part of the problem with the male outlook might be due to the fact that most boys these days are raised by their mothers as since the industrial revolution men have worked away from home; whereas the boys used to learn the fathers trade.

Boys are now raised by women to please women (their mother) and to be giving, submissive and to control extroverted male tendencies.

I suppose my point is that men are different and that its ok, in fact one day society might realise that its a good thing.
Matthew Sharpe
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 06:39 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Kelly wrote on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 06:14 pm:

Hmm.. at least the law in regard to smacking is pretty reasonable i think the current status quo is that its ok if its below the shoulders and leaves no marks which stay for an unreasonable amount of time. Of course you have to remember that there is some irony in punishing children for violence by hitting them.




Don and I are Kiwis, so we aren't allowed to lay so much as 1 finger on our children under the anti-smacking bill put forward by Sue "Mad Cow" Bradford and passed into law by our current Socialist Nanny-State government. The same government that brought us such wonders as telling us what our children are legally allowed to eat at school and restricting political campaining to make it harder to get rid of said government. I kid you not.

As informed adults we are unable to make decisions about our own lives and require the NZ government to pass laws on all aspects of them.

Don't get me wrong, I would never hit my child if there is any other option, I definitely think it can be lazy parenting to just dole out a smack - but it can sometimes be a valid method of getting a point accross, and the government has no right to stop us from doing it.

Roll on the November elections, roll on...
Glen Muller
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 12:40 pm, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Kelly wrote on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 06:14 pm:

Of course you have to remember that there is some irony in punishing children for violence by hitting them.




I copped a few good beltings as a kid, like we all did, and we all turned out fine.
David Vaughan
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 02:17 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I copped those beltings and turned out a vicious psychopath.

Fortunately, this is limited to verbal assaults.

Our own children were never hit and as adults now in the workforce they are doing just fine thanks, very self-disciplined.

Therefore, I see no value in hitting those less powerful than oneself as a method of instruction, whether I happened to survive it or not.
Glen Muller
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 03:47 pm, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you mate, I'm just referring to the fact that we're not all screwed-up rapists who get our kicks from torturing adorable animals because our fathers gave us a walloping with the belt once or twice during our youth...
David Vaughan
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 04:12 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I meant to add a comment, not argue. I should have left out the bit about my verbal insanity and thus not risked verbal inanity
Bruce Passfield
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 06:29 pm, by:  Bruce Passfield (Bruce) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David , I notice you are in the ACT. Where you have to leave your commonsense at the border before you enter there. Yes you see a lot of self disciplined youths around today. (Loud mouth yobs who have no respect for people or property) No doubt their parents think the little darlings are just expressing themselves or are bored !! Some of the little dears these days, think they are underprivileged if they don't have the newest x-box game. It amazes me you will see a teenager going to court for wrecking somebodies hard earned property, And all they get is a warning because they they do not know the difference between right or wrong. Yet these so called teenagers are six feet tall and two pick handles across the back...Yes counselling has certainly lowered the crime rate.
Ben Kelly
TryHard
Wentworthville
v8

Posts: 329
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Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:15 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to continue on smacking rather than men's rights; I used to be pretty anti smacking and would let my boy know he'd done the wrong thing by confining him etc. but I found it was a bit hard when he was kicking the passenger seat of my beloved soarer (from his rear car seat). It was a bit inappropriate at his young age to tell him if he continued that I would be upset later, so I found a smack on the legs helped establish the rules adequately. After that its always over and I try to make sure he knows that he is still loved and respected. Little sh*t he is :-)

No one else have a rant about men's rights? i am starting to think its just me!
Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31

Posts: 9474
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Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 07:01 am, by:  Peter Nitschke (Pen) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Kelly wrote on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 06:13 pm:

As a heterosexual male


Just going back to the original post, do you think it makes a difference being a heterosexual male?
Mike Bradberry
DieHard
Queensland
V8 UnLimited

Posts: 933
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Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 07:50 am, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point Peter. I guess if you really want to be marginalised then it doesn't get much worse than being male and homosexual, even in our enlightened world.
Don't bother about putting up things like being black, having a disability or the like. All these things are well understood but are not excused in my opinion.
Surely in the twenty first century people can get over their phobias and live peacefully.
Glen Muller
TryHard
Victoria
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Posts: 389
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Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:30 am, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Ben Kelly wrote on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:15 pm:

No one else have a rant about men's rights?




I'd like to, but I don't want to get started! Still got 1000 words on this essay.


David Vaughan wrote on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 04:12 pm:

Yes, I meant to add a comment, not argue. I should have left out the bit about my verbal insanity and thus not risked verbal inanity




All's well that ends well. We have an understanding then!
Bruce Passfield
TryHard
Qld
V8

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Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:33 am, by:  Bruce Passfield (Bruce) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike, I've seen some homosexuals (lesbians included) to be the most discriminating people about. I had a mate who had to leave his job because one gay got a job there, and after that the only people getting hired where gays. He said it made it impossible for straights to work there because of bitchiness and back stabbing.I'm sure some members have heard of the Velvet Mafia or the Pink Mafia.When I worked in Sydney I have been turned away from clubs because the doorman openly stated Gays only. Imagine if you had a straights only bar!! I actually made a joke once and said Men should start their own club called "WHAM",. Which stood for White Heterosexual Average Males. But a lefty woman said to me "That would be right! Wham as in bashing women" ..you just can't win.
Glen Muller
TryHard
Victoria
V8 Soarer UZZ31

Posts: 390
Reg: 12-2007

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Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:58 am, by:  Glen Muller (Doom_and_gloom) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Bruce Passfield wrote on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:33 am:

you just can't win.




That's why you keep a fridge loaded with Crownies out in the shed, and spend most of your existence out there. As long as grinders and drills can be heard now and then, you're safe from harassment.

"Darl, I'm going to sharpen the mower blades."

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