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Christian Zimmer
DieHard
Victoria
TT

Posts: 748
Reg: 09-2006

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Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:19 pm, by:  Christian Zimmer (Zimmi) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please see the thread below...

http://soarercentral.com/sc-forum/messages/287/271410.html?1226922446
Cameron Stanley
TryHard
VIC
TT

Posts: 292
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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:03 pm, by:  Cameron Stanley (Camskea) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here.
I was going to start a new thread but did not want to confuse things

I did not know Mark, but as a fellow member of SC, I am saddened by this, as Im sure everyone who read about it is.

Anyway I thought for those of us unable to attend the service, it might be a small but pleasant gesture to Marks family for SC members to send an arrangement of flowers. Either to the family home (with Christians permission) or to the service itself.

A pledge from anyone who would like to help would be appreciated, does not need to be massive if we get many people willing.

I feel uneasy posting about financial details on such a thread so email

camskea@hotmail.com

or call 0412 382 032

I am happy to make the arrangements and figured that something along the lines of

"(open to suggestions here) from everyone at Soarer Central"

Thanks,
Cameron Stanley
Ben Kelly
TryHard
Wentworthville
v8

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:56 pm, by:  Ben Kelly (Ace) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cameron email sent.

On a related note, i wonder if the powers that be think it might be appropriate to have, within the menus a short history of Mark and some other soarer owners who arent here today. It might do everyone well to be able to reflect on the occasional brevity of life and the risks out there on the roads. just a thought.
Daniel Clarke
Goo Roo
NSW
TT 2.5L 6 cylinder

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:18 pm, by:  Daniel Clarke (Dieseltrain) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

May i also suggest, If the family wishes not flowers, but Donations made to a charity in memory of Mark, i would be happy for that also.
Cameron Stanley
TryHard
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TT

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:00 pm, by:  Cameron Stanley (Camskea) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm easy guys.....whatever the family would prefer, the idea is just to show some compassion to relatives for what has happened, from SC members.
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:05 pm, by:  Don Bagnall (Baggs) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Daniel Clarke wrote on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:18 pm:

May i also suggest, If the family wishes not flowers, but Donations made to a charity in memory of Mark, i would be happy for that also.



A very good thought Daniel.

As an alternative to a charity, Mark's parents would be worthy recipients.

Often at these trying times a cash collection can be of more practical use to the bereaved, than heaps of flowers, which need to be disposed of after the funeral etc.
NO family is prepared financially for the sudden death of a loved one, and funeral costs these days ain't cheap.
As well as that, often extra costs are involved with family members coming from out of town to pay their respects and having an envelope with a bit of cash in it can be more meaningful at a time of need........

Just a thought
Cameron Stanley
TryHard
VIC
TT

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:21 pm, by:  Cameron Stanley (Camskea) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All good ideas, I guess we'll just get some commitments from people to help at this stage and figure out which is the most appropriate in a few days. I have already had emails from a few people who have pledged to help (thanks) please keep them coming.

Daniel and Don, can I take your above input as a willingness to be involved?
Christian Zimmer
DieHard
Victoria
TT

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 07:15 pm, by:  Christian Zimmer (Zimmi) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cameron,

Obviously I am more than happy to contribute.

I am just so grateful for the generosity.

Please email me your bank account details and I will make a deposit (i'm assuming thats how it is being run?)

Also, no need for a cash collection. His parents are very humble people and would never accept money. They are finding it hard enough to accept food from people. Plus all the funeral and associated costs are being covered by the TAC. Wonderful idea though.

Thanks again guys.
John Khanh
TryHard
NSW
UZZ31

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:11 pm, by:  John Khanh (Bigjohn) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is this too late to donate to? Can I Paypal?
Ryan Posselt
TryHard
NSW
Celsior V8

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Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 01:01 pm, by:  Ryan Posselt (Yakusaryan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with John is it too late?
Costa Tsimiklis
Goo Roo
Victoria
386.2 rwkw the old T51S setup - New Setup HKS T51R SPL -Going for 450rwkw on Pump Gas!

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 12:01 am, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Latest Update on the cock smoker who ran Mark over:

Driver who ran over love rival to appeal
Andrea Petrie
May 18, 2011


A man sentenced to a minimum of five years' jail for fatally running down a love rival in his mother's car will today seek leave to appeal his sentence, arguing it was too severe.

Leon Borthwick was last year found guilty by a jury of the manslaughter of Mark Zimmer, 19, who died in his father's arms on November 16, 2008.

A jealous Borthwick hit Zimmer as he was trying to run from the Toyota Tarago, which was travelling at 45km/h on the wrong side of Ormond Road, Narre Warren South. Borthwick was unhappy about the relationship Mr Zimmer had struck up with his ex-girlfriend, Nicola Martin.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Justice Katharine Williams called Borthwick's actions a ''serious example of manslaughter by criminal negligence'' as she sentenced him last December to a maximum of 7½ years.

Borthwick will appear in the Victorian Court of Appeal this morning to argue why he should be allowed to have an appeal heard at a later date.
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 12:14 am, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

umm manslaughter is a joke? surely thats 1st degree murder
Vincent Chan
TryHard
nsw
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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 08:25 am, by:  Vincent Chan (Vincent191) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope not only will the appeal fail but the court will add to the sentence. The needless loss of a young life cannot be excused.
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 08:55 am, by:  Sebastian Grant (Saabg) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This country is f ing soft. 7 1/2 years for killing a man??? You get more than that for possesion of drugs in some asian countries. An eye for an eye I say, bring back the death penalty for pricks like this.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 09:48 am, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope they increase his sentence.
Costa Tsimiklis
Goo Roo
Victoria
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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 12:07 pm, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He will probably be out in 5 years considering that he has spend 3 in jail, appealing and so forth.

It's hard to prove the circumstances as it is a vehicle homicide with many factors relating to how it all happen. If there was a gun involved - 25 years straight up.

They are basically trying it as a pedestrian/car accident under the law and NOT murder. If you see the crime scene shot below - the Mark was nearly on his own property FFS.



Upload

Mark Left - Loser Right.


Upload



Articles:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/man-who-drove-at-love-rival-guilty-of-manslaughter-20100705-zxn8.html

The Girl:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/i-was-not-victims-girlfriend/story-e6frf7kx-1111118076048

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/leon-borthwick-sentenced-to-seven-and-a-half-years-in-jail-for-killing-love-rival-mark-zimmer/story-e6freuzr-1225974957647
Jerzy Stopczynski
TryHard
Westarn Australia
jzz20

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 02:42 pm, by:  Jerzy Stopczynski (Stomps) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

as Costa said.. in vehicular homicide cases, its nearly impossibly to get a murder charge...

given that for Premeditated murder (Murder 1 as the yanks call it) you need to prove 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person Planned to kill and Intended to kill.

whenever there is a car involved, this gets very difficult.. the guy would have already had a car and may have been driving it.. so its impossible to prove he was driving it intentionally to kill..

dont get me wrong, its complete BS.. how someone can inflict this sort of damage to a person/family/friends and only get 7 years.. Best you can hope for is that the less that human sack of doesnt get granted parole.. or better yet.. gets knocked off in prison..

Stomps
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 04:06 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Proving premeditated murder would be no doubt just about impossible but IMO from the facts presented this is still murder.

His actions were deliberate not accidental.

Even in the event he got off on murder and only was found guilty for manslaughter surely given the nature of the crime a larger penalty should have been imposed.

What is the minimum and maximum jail time for manslaughter?
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 04:07 pm, by:  Ali Saeed (Ali) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Just after 10pm on November 15, Borthwick telephoned Mr Zimmer and told him he was going to his house at midnight to kill him."

"Mr Zimmer reported the threats to local police who told him to phone 000 if Borthwick turned up at his door."

surely thats premeditated?
Jerzy Stopczynski
TryHard
Westarn Australia
jzz20

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 04:21 pm, by:  Jerzy Stopczynski (Stomps) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it would certainly seem that way.. however proving it is another story..

eg.. telephone conversation between 2 people.. no way to prove what was actually said.. the polesmoker can turn around and say "i never said that to him"

is there even a provision in the murder laws which includes a vehicle? if there isn't there fkn should be.

Stomps
Chris Lock
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sa
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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 07:09 pm, by:  Chris Lock (Sledge) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

crazy, he should never be let out of jail.
James Johnson
TryHard
Auckland
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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 07:09 pm, by:  James Johnson (Jimbo) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Straight up after reading all the article's and posts about Mark's death that is murder. Given all the evidence and threats made to Mark you could argue it in being premeditated murder but the Zimmer family would need a very good lawyer to push for it.

This is where there should not be a jury as there should just be a judge, in my opinion as I have found that when it has come down to a jury it has resulted in a soft sentence.

Also there has been talk here in NZ about perhaps a penalty for judges when offenders re-offend because the judge was too soft or did not hand down an appropirate sentence as these days prison is more seen as a correctional facility instead of it being a place for offenders to "rot in hell".

Just my opinion on things.
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
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Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 08:16 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now wasting your tax dollars on an appeal. Winning.
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32

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Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 01:41 pm, by:  Damian Ware (Frozenpod) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Either way the guy appears to have a screw loose/anger problems.

Completely loosing control and killing someone premeditated or not, once he is out how long will it be before it happens again.
Costa Tsimiklis
Goo Roo
Victoria
386.2 rwkw the old T51S setup - New Setup HKS T51R SPL -Going for 450rwkw on Pump Gas!

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Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 01:54 pm, by:  Costa Tsimiklis (Driftshop) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He has a pretty face, I'm sure he is getting the special treatment in jail...

Come and say hi to Bubba..
Allan Langford
TryHard
Vic
UZZ31

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Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 02:13 pm, by:  Allan Langford (Allan) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I was in his family i would be making payments to some well hung gentleman in the same prison to make his stay very uncomfortable!
Vincent Chan
TryHard
nsw
v8

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Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 04:03 pm, by:  Vincent Chan (Vincent191) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll be paying the janitor holding a big broomstick.
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z

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Friday, May 27, 2011 - 06:39 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man I hope I never have to go through anything like this. It just looks so painful and so un-comprehensibly wrong. Like when think 'how can this possibly be happening?' again and again and again. I get teh shudders thinking about what the Zimmer's have to go through.

What a joke of a justice system.
Adam Barry
DieHard
WA
UZZ31 Soarer

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Friday, May 27, 2011 - 08:45 pm, by:  Adam Barry (Acdchook) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although I totally agree that this was definitely murder, he would have been tried for manslaughter to guarantee a conviction. There is no point pushing a more severe charge and risking an acquittal.


James Johnson wrote on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 07:09 pm:

This is where there should not be a jury as there should just be a judge, in my opinion as I have found that when it has come down to a jury it has resulted in a soft sentence.



Juries don't determine sentencing, they only determine innocence or guilt. Sentencing is determined by the magistrate or judge.
Tim Ross
Goo Roo
Qld
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Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 11:32 pm, by:  Tim Ross (Retox) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God its becoming harder and harder to be proud of this country
Christian Zimmer
DieHard
Victoria
TT

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Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:20 pm, by:  Christian Zimmer (Zimmi) Quote hilighted text Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no such thing as a "justice" system in this country.

I agree with the above saying it is hard to prove a one-on-one conversation with somebody to prove the pre-meditation of murder.

The difference in this case is that my cousin Mark had recorded loads of gruesome and disgusting death threats from the scum bag and even showed them to police. What did the police do...f#ck all!! They said, "we can't do anything until he actually does something". Well, he did something, he killed him. Then he gets a lousy 5 years. Its a joke!

Not only that, you need to prove the actual intention on the night. Fair enough. Leon had 2 of his best friends in the car with him. Both admitted that moments before the incident, Leon specifically said, if I see him I'm going to run him down. PREMEDITATION! If it was an accident, he would have stopped to see if Mark was ok. What did he do, he went to Macca's then talked about torching the car so there was no evidence.
Yep, definately sounds like an accident.

Jury system is retarded. Out of the 12 jurors, around 9 or 10 said murder. BUT, because 2 idi0ts said no, the others eventually had to give in for manslaughter so he would at least do a little bit of jail time.

Advice, If you don't like someone, just run them over. You will go on a 5 year break then can continue on with your life like nothing happened.

May I suggest a soarer cruise to Leon's house when he gets out? The scum bags not even worth the fuel.

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