| Author |
Message |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1585
Reg: 08-2005
|
Well I was trolling and I got my bite.
Ali, driven many American cars have ya? European?
I suppose you've driven the new Cadillac CTS-V? Then step into the competition.. the M3. Which has.. let's see.. 150 less horsepower? And the price? Oh, the Caddy is cheaper. And it doesn't feel like you're dragging your bum down the road when you drive it. So it rides better, is cheaper, has more "stuff" in it, has an extra 150hp and holds a faster time round the Nurburgring than the "best in class" M3. Hmmmm sounds like the luxury sport sedan class is better wrapped up by the Caddy.
How about the new Corvette ZR1? Even Clarkson had to agree it was fantastic. A super car (it swaps holding the 'Ring record with the Dodge Viper ACR - the Skyline is quite a few seconds off now) and is far more liveable than any Ferrari or Lamborghini. Oh, and it has a proper warranty and doesn't drop its gearbox out when you drive it off the lot. No trillion dollar services. And the biggest brakes ever fitted to a production car - they barely fit inside 20 inch wheels. Cheaper better and faster than any Porsche, Ferrari, whatever.
Then there's the Viper at the dealership across the street. Won the FIA GT Championships, Le Mans and Nurburgring 24 hours with far lower budgets than the competition, and only stopped winning when the rules were changed to remove it and Chrysler couldn't be bothered any more. After that the Vette took over. Porsche used to win those.. not so much lately.
How about the Cadillac Escalade? Driven one of those then a BMW X5? No comparison. How about a Hummer?
How about just about every single classic car that has been actually affordable, drivable and dependable over the last century? Oh no, I suppose only an E type Jag, or a Daytona is the way to go. Great, if you don't like driving it often.
Oh and it all started back with the Model T in which country now??
Nah, better to just listen to what Clarkson usually harps on about on his *English* show. And where do half of his cars come from? Hammond too. Oooooops. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1586
Reg: 08-2005
|
How about this comparison?
These 2 cars were built as very very cheap models, both for 1966. They were built for ANYONE to afford. Don't believe me? Look it up. The American car was built by Ford with an absolute order that it must not cost more than (from memory) $2500 and be easily affordable by a 20 year old kid. I think the original was $2320? Which one would you rather drive?
Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Toyota_Corolla_First-generation_001.jpg
USA:
http://www.carnut.com/show/06/zoo/zoo116.jpg |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1587
Reg: 08-2005
|
Or maybe you would prefer the same vintage Beemer?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lsyt_wQ2awY/SJ4Pw4aWsFI/AAAAAAAAD5k/NalJeF5OHvs/s400/BMW-1600-2_1966_800x6 00_wallpaper_01.jpg
Weeeeeeeeee! Look ma! No balls! |
Joshua Rao
Goo Roo
WA
JZZ30 vvti GT-L, 94 TT manual (being wrecked), Legnum VR4
Posts: 1523
Reg: 09-2006
|
I like the Corolla. |
Timothy Barnes
Tinkerer
Auckland
MR2 GTS
Posts: 99
Reg: 08-2005
|
China is quite capable of making high quality goods....and they do*...but mostly what 'the market wants' is cheap goods from them. And cheap usually means junk. But if (when) the market changes, and it wants higher quality goods (but still cheaper), then the manufacturer that has developed ways to keep costs down and has found ways to do the same with less (i.e. better engineering) will be able to do better than the less efficient manufacturer.
* Check the tag on most 'designer' clothing for example- Usually it will state 'Designed in Italy, Manufactured in China/India'
This is a similar situation that Japan was in post WWII- If you know your history, Japan is a nation of craftsmen- Very very high quality wood working, textiles and metal working etc. After the war, Japanese industry was unfortunately reduced to creating cheap 'junk' for the western market as that is what was demanded- There was simply no market for high quality Japanese goods: The racism that was prevalent then decreed that they simply didn't posses the intelligence to make high quality goods and so the market didn't exist for them (of course they could!)
It took 50 years for them to reverse the damage that period did to their reputation. Now, rightly, we consider Japan to be a nation of skilled craftsmen/engineers.
Korea is another example....20 years ago Hyundai was the laughing stock of the automotive world. Now, they consistently outrank the established names in quality and dependability surveys.
So, would I buy a Chinese car? Nope...not yet. Do I think they are incapable of making a high quality car? Nope. They could do it...and probably do it better than a lot of other countries. |
Timothy Barnes
Tinkerer
Auckland
MR2 GTS
Posts: 100
Reg: 08-2005
|
Re: Miles....it seems you are 'judging the book by its cover' so to speak. There is more to a car than its looks.
(Personally I don't understand why the Americans style most of their cars to look like trucks?)
Where the Americans have consistently fallen over is quality and efficiency- Something that the Japanese and Germans do well (and lately the Koreans)
Regardless, it is 2009 now....not 1960 |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1588
Reg: 08-2005
|
Tim
I have also built Mustangs and other cars from start to finish. What is under the covers on that Mustang is a lot better than that Corolla. And your experience with American cars is.....?
You base your quality and efficiency comment on.....? Fact is the American (and other) media love to rubbish the quality reputation of American cars, but it is mostly unwarranted. Fuel efficiency has only become a concern recently (and it really still isn't that big a concern). Until now the market has dictated it didn't care about efficiency. The quality complaint all came from a short period of about 15 years when Japan came good on reliability and the Big 3 in the US had a bad patch in that regard.
I can tell you from first hand experience there is nothing wrong with the quality of American cars through most of the years. I have driven many and worked on many. I routinely drive American cars over 40 years old that were designed to the lowest price point in the market at the time, and were only asked to last 5 years. Still going strong. Have a chat to a panel beater about the quality of steel used and how much easier it is to work on a steel body muscle car than any other tin can of the day.
It's nice to comment on "what you've heard". It's actually only valid to comment on what you know. If the next thing your going to bring is "well I heard that American cars only go fast in a straight line" then don't bother making a fool of yourself. |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 4436
Reg: 09-2005
|
America make the fastest production car in the world right now..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSC_Aero
Its a Shelby as well. =P
Edit: The "Communist" quotes i flagged was not specifically the words that i was highlighting but the tone of the posts. |
Timothy Barnes
TryHard
Auckland
MR2 GTS
Posts: 101
Reg: 08-2005
|
Erm actually, commenting only on 'what you know' or 'your expereince' actually isn't particularly valid at all. Why? One persons experiences isn't statistically valid when trying to make a generalised statement like 'such and such a brand is good'
I may have had a good run with a car from say, Kraplacistan, and had nothing go wrong and therefore conclude (incorrectly) that ALL cars from Kraplacistan are good.
In reality, my experience with that one car may not be the norm- My experience may be a statisical anomoly- the other 99% of people that have bought one of these cars may have had a horrible time with them....and they wont agree with my sentiment that this car is a jem.
One persons experience is also open to all sorts of nasty things like bias (i.e. someone not liking Japan because of the war has nothing to do with the quality of the car) When experiences are grouped, these influences are minimsed.
Furthermore- Any car can be made to last given enough work. One claim made by classic car enthusiasts is that modern cars 'aren't made like they were used to'(since their old car is still running 50 or 60 years later) and then conviently gloss over the fact that their classic car has probably had a complete replacement or refurbishment of most of the components in it....and at shorter intervals than a modern car.
Modern cars components are made to last longer (i.e. the predicted lifespan of the car say 250 000kms). It doesn't make sense to design a component to last much more than this.- That doesn't mean they can't be fixed, it just means it may not be econmical to do so.
The market has also vastly changed- back then, the cost of new and second hand cars swung the balance in favour of fixing a car to keep it going. Now, it has swung towards simply buying a replacement car rather than spending the money to fix it. If you turned off the supply of new cars tomorrow, I bet there would be a whole heap of older cars (i.e 1990s haha) still 'going strong' rather than being resigned to the scrap heap.
So- Here are some statistically valid comparisons from JD Power for the American Market (American quality has been getting better in the latter part of this decade)
Initial quality 2008
Initial Quality 2007
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2007-Initial-Quality-Study-Results
Vehicle Dependability (i.e. longer term quality) 2007
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2007-Vehicle-Dependability-Study-Results
2009
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-4/descending/page-#pa ge-anchor
And here are some earlier ones
Dependibility 2005
Factory Defects 2005
Im trying to find reports from the early 90s as the American manufacturers weren't placed as well as they are between 2005 - 2009 |
Timothy Barnes
TryHard
Auckland
MR2 GTS
Posts: 102
Reg: 08-2005
|
American Ranks lowest in World for Fuel efficiency:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN3024959820070730 |
Joe Russell
TryHard
Marlborough
4.0 V8 GT-L(UZZ31)
Posts: 400
Reg: 10-2008
|
I say buy New Zealand made cars.
...Although the cars that WERE made here weren't bad(From what I've heard Miles) hahaha!
The Hulme looks good... |
Joe Russell
TryHard
Marlborough
4.0 V8 GT-L(UZZ31)
Posts: 401
Reg: 10-2008
|
Actually make that Italian. Alfa romeos are some of the best! Good fun I say. |
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8
Posts: 2195
Reg: 04-2006
|
ok... lets chat more about USA cars. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 4270
Reg: 10-2005
|
Hmm, simple argument against American cars - if they are so good, then why are GM and Chrysler only still running because of massive government handouts? Why don't they sell most models outside of a few select markets? Ford is only doing slightly better, and thats mostly because they actually have some decent European designed and built cars in their lineup. Modern American cars, with the exception of some of the high end models that Miles mentions, are clearly crap of the highest order. I'm not arguing that they can't make good cars, as clearly they do make a number of very good cars (though even those have some bizzare design choices)... its just that their average "mundane-o-mobile" is just not as good as a Japanese or European mundane-o-mobile. |
David Tra
DieHard
qld
TT
Posts: 732
Reg: 11-2007
|
Maybe the japanese rather spend money on developing a car that is just as fast and requires less running cost?
Maybe this video will give you an insight on what im talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0L6pFsNpDM |
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8
Posts: 2200
Reg: 04-2006
|
hahaha that clip is gold ! |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1589
Reg: 08-2005
|
The Big 3 in the US would be perfectly profitable businesses, if it wasn't for the frickin union. The UAW has strangled them to the point where they pay almost DOUBLE for labour what other manufacturers pay. There are many other manufacturers building cars in the US, including Honda, Toyota, BMW etc. They are not covered by the damn union ruling and don't get screwed. Remove the UAW problem and the Big 3 would be back in the black.
Besides Matthew, that was an argument against American car companies, not American cars. "Clearly crap of the highest order". Again, have you driven any of them? Have you purchased any of them? Do you even know the prices of any of them? Or are you once again just blabbering out the crap you see on TV and read in bullsh!t magazines?
There are countless good cars made in the US. Show me anywhere else you can buy a 24 valve V8 coupe as good as the Mustang, brand new, 25 grand sticker price? And they sell them well under that. Last time I was there I saw a brand new V8 loaded with all the premium stuff for 20 grand brand new. The same car with a V6 is 19 grand sticker. Or 23 grand convertible! They sell most of the same range as they sell in Europe in the US. Anywhere else make pick ups even approaching the US? No. Anyone else make an SUV as SUV as America does? No.
The complete Cadillac line is KICK ASS. Tell me it isn't. The new Challenger is frickin awesome. The 300C has won awards left and right as best sedan in the world in its class. It looks great is comfy, big, has a hemi and is dirt cheap. Jesus sh!t you people just don't know what you're talking about.
Japanese rather spend money developing a car that is just as fast and lower running costs? Wrong. They are not as fast (pointing at Nurburgring and total lack of Japanese anything on the fastest production car list), and the running costs are as high or higher. You can't get anything much easier or cheaper to work on than a pushrod V8 that runs on regular unleaded with a bullet proof warranty. Or is some high strung, high revving, high boost turbocharged small engine suddenly cheaper to run? Sorry, no. I've actually owned both chief.
Callum, no relation to Carrol Shelby. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1590
Reg: 08-2005
|
Take a look at your dependability 2005 graph thing there. Look at all the US brands above the industry average. They have more brands above the average than any other nation.
Lincoln
Buick
Cadillac
Mercury
Ford
Chevrolet
Chrysler
BMW produce basically prestige and luxury cars ONLY. Ford's numbers have to include all their dirt cheap buzz box models for the low end, as well as their pick ups, vans, family cars etc. And they still manage to almost beat BMW! They absolutely destroy Audi, Subaru, Nissan, Suzuki, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, Volvo.
And again in your 2008 Quality stats - most brands above the average by nation? USA. |
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z
Posts: 2298
Reg: 03-2006
|
Yet none in the Top 5? |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4335
Reg: 07-2005
|
Hey Miles, you speak of seven brands but six of those relate to only two manufacturers with Chrysler (owned by Daimler in the period of interest) the third. Mercedes and BMW have brands Mercedes and BMW. VW-Audi have two in the market, Skoda and Seat not being in the US so far as I know. Saab, Jaguar and Volvo were all "US" cars in that time and affect the ratios above and below average. I like the argument but please keep it reasonable [...everyone] |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4336
Reg: 07-2005
|
BTW, Mercedes and BMW do not produce "prestige and luxury cars ONLY". That is a perception of our market and to a lesser extent the US market, owing to freight costs and taxes. In Germany, they produce taxis. I have travelled in US and German taxis (amongst others) and by that measure I would rather the Eurocab any day  |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1591
Reg: 08-2005
|
Getting pretty frickin nit picky aren't we? The original point of contention was the statements approximating "American cars totally suck and have never amounted to anything at all". I think we've disproved that. I also don't think we'd honestly consider Saab, Jaguar and Volvo to be US marques, no matter who happens to have bought them at the time. We can stretch these games as far as we want. eg America has 2/3 of its manufacturers in the top portion in 2008 and 3/3 in 2005. Japan has worse stats on that basis for both years.. about half above and half below. Germany not flash either.
I would certainly bloody hope that Mercedes, BMW and Porsche could be producing far more reliable cars considering their lower volumes and far higher average prices. Fact is they're not really that far in front, and in some cases, behind.
Bottom line, making statements like "America makes rubbish cars compared to ......" is the mark of a fool.
Yeah they make a few crappy cars, but ever driven a Punto? Yaris, now there's a compelling drive. Mmmmm nothing spells performance like a Colt. BMW 318i - what a boring expensive turd.
What "cult" cars has Japan got? The AE86? Gee, compare that to Mustang, Corvette, Charger, Challenger, Cuda, Camaro, Bel Air, Chevelle, Cobra, El Dorado, Hummer, Viper, Road Runner, Trans Am, Pick Up, Grand National, Gran Torino, Deuce.. hell I can't even name half. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4337
Reg: 07-2005
|
Taste is creeping in too far. Of the cars you list, only two are worth a pinch of •••• imho, not in comparison with other cars but intrinsically. Who the F wants an H3 based on a Chev truck (not on an H1) for example, and what dick wants an H1 anyway? Much is made of big pickups and the like being purchased by people with various problems (marketing research) but the main thing I observe around town is that they are purchased by fat people, which seems the major defining characteristic of American cars from 1950-2000. In recent years, faced with competition, they have improved massively but the fact that a Corvette is brilliant (and has been for a long time) does nothing to justify an F150 or an old Pontiac Bonneville for example.
America has 2/3 of its manufacturers in the top portion in 2008? It has only three manufacturers in total. Germany and Japan are both much smaller economically than America (admittedly 2 and 3 most of the time) but they manage three each anyway. Little Korea gets one. Non-American outnumbers American over 2:1. Big deal, either way. It is a non-argument.
I liked the point that there has been heaps of innovation in American car design and manufacture over the last century. It is a perfect counterpoint to the fact that most people around the planet find non-American cars preferable when not on American highways. These days, even Americans do. Let's not get carried away though. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1592
Reg: 08-2005
|
H1, I'd have one. For off roading of course. My point though is it set the watermark in its market. I'm not for a second going to say I would drive one on the street, but in its class it does the business.. for gangsters, pimps, and governators. Has anyone else anywhere produced anything that can compete with it in that market? No, it owns it. It is recognisable anywhere by almost anyone.
The point of the pickup truck is that it is revolutionary in an accessible, drivable, cheap utility vehicle, and noone else makes one like it. Tradesmen, mechanics etc.. people who need em.. love em. And for good reason. They do the job great. I'm not suggesting you get one for driving to the office in, gees. And who else makes one that compares? Noone really. Maybe the Hilux, but not really. Wanna tow a boat and throw all your gear in the tray? It's Silverado time baby. Some people say America was built by the railroads, others say by pickup trucks.
Pontiac Bonnevilles don't need justifying. Horses for courses. At the time, fuel was cheap and people wanted big big cars. So they made big big cars that used fuel. The peg fit the hole, and it fit the hole better than anyone else's peg. Deal with it. Compact, fuel efficient.. these are today's standards. Don't try to judge another era's cars on them. Back in those days it was price. And they built more car per buck at better quality than anyone else, and they had some style too. Good enough for you to know their names today. Who remembers the '57 Toyota Corona?
The fact that you don't like the cars on that list means not a thing. They are successful cars in the eyes of the people who bought them.. And bought them in their tens and hundreds of thousands. They were great cars that have stood the test of time with their market (not you). That's a successful product. They were made in just the right mix of quality, price, performance, features and aesthetics to prove themselves classics - still desired now. Who else has produced that number and variety of cars that we still remember today? And how many of those were cars that average people could actually own?
My point with the numbers was you can twist numbers. Let's get back on topic. America has made some damn good cars, and continues to. Any other statement is lunacy. |
Steven Nanevski
Goo Roo
New South Wales
BF Ford Falcon XR8 MKII
Posts: 2085
Reg: 07-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, May 02, 2009 - 09:57 pm: First the copied the photocopier. Now they use it.
Sorry I have to pipe up here...
Yanks did not create the first photocopier, it was first created by the Germans (Gustner in 1912 or 1914), then refined by the Japs (Ricoh mid to late 50's), then built and sold in mass production by who else.... Xerox (Late 60's it went into commercial production) |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1593
Reg: 08-2005
|
Did I say who invented it? Funny how you're putting words in my mouth. Or just one. Tall poppy syndrome sure is alive and well. |
David Tra
DieHard
qld
TT
Posts: 734
Reg: 11-2007
|
Just to be clear, I never said American cars totally suck.
I was talking about initial purchase vs running costs vs performance
GTR seems to be forgotten?
http://compare.nissanusa.com/NNAComparator/comparison |
Rod Iseppi
DieHard
wa
86 chev silverado with 6.0L and T56 goodness ... 
Posts: 869
Reg: 01-2006
|
David Vaughan wrote on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 09:39 pm: but the main thing I observe around town is that they are purchased by fat people
i own an american pickup truck and im not fat......  |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1594
Reg: 08-2005
|
GTR isn't forgotten, it just isn't fast enough. If I'm buying a supercar, I don't buy number 3 do I? I buy number 1. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4338
Reg: 07-2005
|
Well, I chucked in a couple of little troll points but Miles breezed cleanly past. Rod had a little nibble though
Generalisations are never specific to all people meeting the first criterion, Rod. In any case, the main reason I said that was a moment's speculation that the wheelbase x height of cars is best predicted by the average girth of the residents (or vice versa). See Germany within Europe for example, or the rapid expansion of waistlines and vehicle sizes in Australia in the last thirty years. I conjecture idly about different things than does Mike Bradberry but we each have our disuses  |
Timothy Barnes
TryHard
Auckland
MR2 GTS
Posts: 103
Reg: 08-2005
|
Just a point of clarification- The stats I posted above were for the American market. Of course there will be differences for different markets (i.e. the Japanese market, American cars aren't anywhere near the top. Probably the same with European markets?) Different factories, different spec levels...different conditions?
...that raises a point in itself: American cars don't really feature in many other markets apart from their own. This makes it hard to compare them on anything other than their 'home turf'....which does introduce a large bias I believe.
The new 2010 GTR time around Nurburgring is 7m 27.56s compared with the 7m 26.4s of the Corvette. Both are very impressive cars.
Times for the Spec-V GTR aren't out but I would be surprised if it didn't best the C6 ZR1. Bear in mind that the Spec-V isn't the ultimate GTR model....but trying to state what any higher model's (i.e. Spec-V II,LM, N1, Nur etc) times may be is conjecture. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1595
Reg: 08-2005
|
America does export loads of cars, but really, who cares anyway. They are sitting right in the middle of the biggest market. The Viper ACR pulled a 7:22 from memory. AFAIK the Spec-V also runs on semi slick tyres and so on and so on... |
Joe Russell
TryHard
Marlborough
4.0 V8 GT-L(UZZ31)
Posts: 402
Reg: 10-2008
|
Production vehicles
Length ↓ Time ↓ Vehicle ↓ Driver ↓ Date ↓ Notes ↓
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 6:55 Radical SR8 Michael Vergers 28 September 2005 Radical Sportscars[1] Timed by Sport Auto [13][14][15]
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:22.1 2009 Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR Tom Coronel 18 August 2008 Chrysler conducted test,[2] Motor Trend confirmed, Hardcore Package option, non-stock race seat with a six-point harness, suspension adjustments,[3] aero adjustments, video confirmed
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:24.3 Maserati MC12 Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test (Discussion - Evo article)
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:24.7 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test (Discussion - Evo article)
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:25.3 Ferrari Enzo Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test (Discussion - Evo article)
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:26.4 2009 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 Jim Mero 27 June 2008 General Motors conducted test,[4][5][6] base specification car with stock tires and non-stock safety equipment, video confirmed. Driver: Jim Mero, June 2008.
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:27.56 2010 Nissan GT-R Toshio Suzuki 16 April 2009 Response Magazine, stock GT-R, optional GT-R SpecV wheel package [7][16]
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:27.82 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport Marc Basseng September 2007 Pagani conducted test,[8][9] semi-wet conditions[citation needed]
20,600 m (68,000 ft) 7:28 Porsche Carrera GT Walter Röhrl 2 July 2004 Autobild (07/04) [9]
20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:29 2009 Nissan GT-R Toshio Suzuki 17 April 2008 Nissan Motors conducted test,[10][11][12]. The test used stock GT-R with stock tires. Video confirmed.
Italy are the best... with Japan and US having a foot in.
Why didn't anyone beleive me before huh?! |
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8
Posts: 2207
Reg: 04-2006
|
Good on ya China ! |
Justin Burnes
TryHard
nsw
soarer v8 limited
Posts: 154
Reg: 11-2007
|
I can't believe it.... i actually agree with Miles. |
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