| Author |
Message |
Mike Bradberry
Goo Roo
Queensland
V8 UnLimited
Posts: 1358
Reg: 07-2005
|
One day in the not too distant future the government won't be giving out money to people to have babies or the pope won't be saying not to use condoms.
I havn't been a trendsetter in much in my life, but when my wife and I decided not to have children we were told "it's never too late" or "you poor things" or the best of all "geez, that's really selfish".
I've often wondered if ego plays a part in reproduction or maybe it's needing to leave a piece of self behind so as death is only final up to a point. You have put in place another individual that at least has some similarities to the parents.
I think it's great that there are people who are willing, have the finances, have the time, have the devotion and most of all have the love to bring replacements of themselves into the world, but when they start having 4,6,8 or a dozen kids and expect government support, I think that is so wrong.
I'm expecting a damn good lambasting on this one. |
Dave Hart
Goo Roo
Waikato
UZZ32
Posts: 1417
Reg: 08-2005
|
The need to procreate is right up there with the need for self preservation.
Now saying that I think it is selfish to have kids if you can't afford to look after them and expect others, via the tax take, to supply the means.
Then again there are some not so well off women who are natural mothers and against all odds bring up well adjusted children. There are also some well off people who have maladjusted children because of lifestyle don't give their children the attention and proper life skills. You read about them all the time in the entertainment mags. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, quote unquote. |
Rod Iseppi
DieHard
wa
86 chev silverado with 6.0L and T56 goodness ... 
Posts: 872
Reg: 01-2006
|
well me and my fiance have no plans to have kids, they just dont suit us, not saying kids wont happen, just not on the list of esential things to do before i die. and look at the world they would be brought into, kinda scary when u think about it, i would have loved to have grown up in the 60`s and 70`s, so carefree... |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31
Posts: 10576
Reg: 11-2004
|
Pretty sure people were paranoid about "the bomb" in the 60's and 70's. Every generation in the last 100 years has worried about the worlds they are bringing their kids into, yet most turn out OK and do alright.
I do agree that handouts are not the way, especially for higher income earners.
As a parent, I don't recall the choice as being ego driven. It was just a natural part of life. Like going to school, then having girlfriends, then settling down, marriage, house, kids etc, it's been a pattern for thousands of years.
I would like to add that it's been a very satisfying journey though.
Not as any sort of judgement, but I have sometimes thought that maybe some people choose not to have kids because they were selfish. |
Adam Peterson
Goo Roo
Western Australia
Supercharged & Intercooled V8
Posts: 2289
Reg: 04-2006
|
When did you get engaged Rod ??? |
Ian Johnston
DieHard
South Australia
UZZ30 GT 4.0
Posts: 830
Reg: 07-2005
|
I agree partly with you Mike.
My wife and I decided initially not to have kids, but when my mother died, we decided that we needed to continue the "family" tree as such.
No regrets, but I dont support unmarried mothers pumping out kids for the gov hand out.
We made the decision to only have one. We received a lot of flack from people for not having more. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1636
Reg: 08-2005
|
No kids for me. And yep, the government makes me sick with the way it pours my tax dollars out. Can't afford to have kids? Don't worry we'll pay. Can't save a deposit to buy a house? Here's THIRTY TWO GRAND to buy one. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4386
Reg: 07-2005
|
Being a bit older, we have a history rather than a status. Travelled and established ourselves together for seven years until we had one, then another, when both of us were in our thirties. Both the marriage and having children were very late by the standards of the day. Both progeny moved out as soon as they had finished university so now we are once again just the two of us. We have enjoyed all of it.
It is impossible for me to say one "ought" or "ought not" to have kids because one's view of its worth is arguably framed as much by your prior decision as by the experience. We eventually decided we would, and think it was and is tremendously rewarding to know these now independent people, but it is not as if we just sat back to watch what happened so of course our investment felt rewarded. Had we not had children, we would have done different things; seemingly trite to say but still important.
Incidentally, I agree with Pen about the state of the world. One of the reasons I was slow to decide on children was precisely because of childhood fears aroused by by Mutual Assured Destruction and the polarised politics of the day. Now, I think that view is rubbish. It was held by my ancestors based on different fears then, and is held today for other reasons, but all of them were and are of no importance if you are rational about the population totals. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1638
Reg: 08-2005
|
My deal is I am far too selfish with my time and don't have the attention span to have children. It just wouldn't work out well for me or the kids. |
Ben Kelly
DieHard
Wentworthville
v8
Posts: 592
Reg: 08-2005
|
I think bringing up kids is a great joy. recently ive been thinking about it like this: in my whole personal evolutionary history not one of my ancestors has died prematurely, that is before having children. none were eaten by sabre tooth tigers, none fell while descending from the trees etc. similarly all of them were able to find a mate successfully and provide adequately for their offspring.. hmm it might not be that significant but i sure dont want to be the one to break the chain! |
Adam Barry
DieHard
WA
UZZ31 Soarer, BF Falcon Work Ute
Posts: 690
Reg: 08-2005
|
Definitely no kids for me ever - I just hate the things. They annoy me. |
David Grab
Goo Roo
SA
T78
Posts: 1316
Reg: 01-2008
|
How else would i fund my Soarer, work? bahahah
1 kid = $3000 baby bonus
12 x $3000 = a 99 black on black Soarer with 12K for mods, i call it Daves Soarer bonus haha |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1639
Reg: 08-2005
|
Two thumbs up, Adam.
A guy at work was telling me about how his kid was screaming keeping him awake the night before. I said "gees I can understand those animals that eat their young". He goes "yeah well what kind of animal also eats its wife?"
Piss3r. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 4320
Reg: 10-2005
|
I agree with Peter and David - for me it was natural, and our little fella didn't come along until I was 33 so I had plenty of time to "grow up" first. Now I can't imagine being with out him.
Of course I get nothing from the government as I actually bothered to get a profession and a decent job. |
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z
Posts: 2361
Reg: 03-2006
|
I need all you motherf*ckers to keep spitting out little sh*ts to keep buying crap they dont need, living in severely close proximity to each other so that keeping up with the jones's becomes unavoidable, and they head to Bunnings to buy more box crap they don't need, and keep paying rent on houses that they otherwise would be able to afford if they didnt live such a look at me lifestyle
Get out there, keep rooting
Nah serioulsy, drive around any new land release and look at all the empty homes, just waiting for your kids to fill, wether they buy or rent, it makes a whole lot of underserving fools really rich.
Hot water systems, plasmas, 19.8 channel surround sounds, cordless phones in every room, multiple cars, a $100/month home phone, $90 a month internet connection, takeaway food, insurance, finance, school uniforms, pets, pet food, pet toys, Voltron, nintendo, cigarettes
Ughhh, I love it
Give me your childrens futures, that I may one day rule the world with their owings...
Come on Miles, those handouts make the economy go round and round and up and down. Mostly around and up though..
Its essential to keep those poor f*ckers down there where they belong, spending money they dont have so Coles/Myer shareholders can employ people on minimum wages, so they can go and bu stuff they dont need, and so on, and so forth, thus, making the world....useful.
But yeah, I struggle to keep the cats and the dog inline. F*ck children! |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1640
Reg: 08-2005
|
No, those handouts fuel a big debt hole both public and private. Tell me how 30 plus thousand dollars into each home loan from the public purse is sensible. Tell me how houses are worth three times what they were ten years ago when they are the same commodity. No, the mortgages just get bigger and the money just floods out of the country. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4394
Reg: 07-2005
|
A former Treasury economist with whom I am closely acquainted (my wife) tells me that in classical economics a house purchased to live in is regarded as dead money, having no productive use. A moot point but we are talking about a classical theory here. Owning a house is known to reduce labour mobility, especially given tax drag on transactions (aka stamp duty), making the economy less adaptive and therefore less productive. So, it my surprise some, I do not favour house ownership as opposed to housing investment and therefore government subsidies for house ownership are merely a market distortion, dragging money from potentially productive uses into unproductive use at direct and indirect taxpayer cost.
It is interesting that if, from a financial planning perspective, you ask people about their investments then most will not mention the house in which they live. Indeed, only a few years ago I recall a lecturer in the topic saying it was "wrong" to include your house in your invested assets yet within the hour he was expounding upon reverse mortgages. Twit. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1641
Reg: 08-2005
|
I am a big opponent of this whole backyard housing "investment" industry. Any appreciation of housing beyond CPI is foolish. The asset has not had any real value added to it, and sinking money into it that could be invested in business is unproductive. Capital should be invested in industry where it can expand our industrial base, create jobs, make a real growth of GDP. Treating the housing market like a viable profit source is also socially poor - it should be regulated like other essential services.
Instead we have spiralling debt for what? The same houses that were standing on the same land 20 years ago are now the source of massive private foreign debt. The whole thing is a massive ponzi scheme on top of first home buyer foreign debt. The scheme has now run so badly out of new blood that the government is propping it up more every year. And all we have to show for it are the same assets we actually owned as a country 20 years ago. We're literally paying foreign creditors to borrow to buy from each other. And the people at the top of the scheme either sink the money back into fuelling the scheme or buy imported goods with it sending the borrowed money home overseas. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 4323
Reg: 10-2005
|
Of course the property investment ladder is madness.
I hate government subsidies with a passion also, as I'm never, ever elligable for any of them and find it blatantly unfair that someone take my money off me to give to someone who didn't bother to get an education and a well paying job. Of course Aaron makes a farcical point too - someone has to be on the bottom rung I guess.
Anyhoo private home ownership... well you do need somewhere to live, and mortgage rates being what they are at the moment in comparison to rent, it does make sense to own a home and actually get a tangable asset for the money you are paying - plus there is a lot of satisfaction in owning your own home. That was my reasoning anyway. |
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z
Posts: 2363
Reg: 03-2006
|
Bloody hell, whats with the anti-capitalist attiude you freakin commie bastards? You can;t please all ofthe people, all of the time. Since when did any capitalist govt actually care about looking after anyone other than big business? Bob Hawke? Ha!
Wether you like the idea or not, housing prices, and the land they are on, have always had the same amount of growth for over 100 years now, have a look at any graph. Its the way it is. People like to live in place THEY LIKE.
Thats why its a very very appreciative investment, because there is DEMAND. Wether the govt proprs it up is moot, allowing more people to own their own home means more spending, more tax reciepts and more jobs. So what if the money goes out of the country? Good.
Means Australian product is more affordable to foreign markets. More demand, more jobs. More recipts. |
Mike Bradberry
Goo Roo
Queensland
V8 UnLimited
Posts: 1362
Reg: 07-2005
|
So is a lean-to, part of the housing slump? |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4396
Reg: 07-2005
|
Funnily enough, I think Miles is highly pro-capitalist as was my post Aaron . I disagree with Miles on rational economic grounds though. A house depreciates but it makes perfect sense that some land will command a higher price than other, for reasons of proximity to work or services (personal or commercial) for example, or even for aesthetic reasons similarly to spending money on music or art. As time passes and cities grow, land already developed will legitimately appreciate because newer land will most probably be less well located while the supply is reducing. So, house prices go up with land price moderated by house depreciation.
My argument is that capital sunk into your own land might be invested better elsewhere, depending on prevailing interest rates, opportunities and rents. Someone has to invest in the land so we have somewhere to live, and warehouses or factories built, but renting gives more flexibility to pick your investments whether in land, companies or finance. Governments distort the economy in favour of land purchase (subsidies, CGT exemption, negative gearing) more than do many other economies. The reduction in percentage of home ownership does not mean houses will not be built or people have nowhere to live. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4397
Reg: 07-2005
|
Mike, how do prices get depressed, and what does one do about it? It seems governments have told money to breathe, go for a walk and communicate. Makes sense, really. |
Kelly O'Brien
TryHard
QLD
TT Soarer
Posts: 129
Reg: 09-2007
|
I don't think having kids is selfish, I would have kids one day to hopefully raise into good people that can make a difference to and a contribution to society because if you think of it, baby bonuses and gov't handouts all end up getting repaid when your kids get a job and start paying tax...the gov't doesn't just give out "free money".
Anyways on a selfish note...having kids would be good so you don't die alone and with no family (that's what I'm scared of!) and can possibly have grandkids to keep you amused when you're old and silly...I don't think I'll be playing with Soarers when I'm an old duck |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4399
Reg: 07-2005
|
quote:I don't think I'll be playing with Soarers when I'm an old duck
Eh? |
Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 191
Reg: 01-2009
|
lol
Kelly, we're girls. Any input by us will have them say "that's such a chick thing to say"! |
Paul Holland
Tinkerer
Victoria
TT
Posts: 99
Reg: 07-2005
|
You'd be a mug to think a 3K baby bonus would have any effect on a persons decision to have a child. It a personal decision between the couple (same sex or not it now appears) When I was growing up the neighbours never had kids, mate of mine doesnt either and he's damn near retired in his mid forties and owns a couple of houses.
I tell ya who I feel sorry for is the real handy, smart, sporty types who have so much to offer life and other people - its kindof a waste that knowledge not being passed on, future generations will be poorer for it
now get out there and start procreating the lot of ya! |
Bruce Passfield
TryHard
Qld
V8
Posts: 170
Reg: 09-2005
|
Anika, "That's such a chick thing to say"!! |
Mike Bradberry
Goo Roo
Queensland
V8 UnLimited
Posts: 1363
Reg: 07-2005
|
My reference to the pope and his reluctance to advocate the use of condoms for contraception suggests he would like to see more catholics in the world.
What bothers me is that it seems most people who advocate making untold babies don't think the world will ever run out of natural spaces, water, food, trees, coal, living environments etc, not to mention the pollution created in the process.
It really saddens me when I see programs about the polluted seas all over the planet, the starving children, the ripped habitats of the other creatures that share our planet and the insatiable lust for more in the western world.
I have done quite a bit of travelling in parts of Asia, and I'm so appreciative when I come home to such natural beauty and an almost lasse faire attitude to life here in Australia.
There may come a time however when things are not so carefree. Yes, I would be concerned for my offspring had I had any. Don't kid yourself that today is the only time the world had major worries.
I believe I have lived in the best era this planet may ever see, from a human perspective that is.
Personally I don't give a **** about how the global economy is going or how many houses the investor has or has lost due to the greed of a few. What I would like to see is a world where everyone thinks outside of themselves. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
NSW
V8 Ltd manual
Posts: 4403
Reg: 07-2005
|
If you have a child then your options are basically to think outside yourself or to be the parent of someone who eggs cars, or the like.
Who believes they could live successfully with another person, partner or child, without thinking outside themselves? Those who do not [think] fail society whether they have children or not. |
Adam Barry
DieHard
WA
UZZ31 Soarer
Posts: 697
Reg: 08-2005
|
The problem with the baby bonus is that it encourages losers who would only have one or two accidents, to breed like rabbits so they can buy new TVs and stereos. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1643
Reg: 08-2005
|
My view is that the "housing industry" encourages us all to stand in circles pissing on each other, while other countries invest their capital in industrial growth and we get left behind.
"Investing" in housing does little/nothing to increase GDP, it's useless debt. You like high foreign debt Aaron? Sheesh you're underqualified to participate in the grown ups' conversation. |
Tim Ross
DieHard
Qld
6+2>8 (50RRA)
Posts: 699
Reg: 09-2007
|
On the topic, no kids for me.... I just dont have the tolerances or the paternal instincts required.... nor do I wish I had those qualities either.
Kids are for other people |
Callum Finch
Goo Roo
WA
Soarer TT & Corolla
Posts: 4458
Reg: 09-2005
|
Anika Le wrote on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - 02:34 pm:Kelly, we're girls.
I'm a girl as well and i never get told that on these forums.
The guys around here are pretty respectful of genders. =) |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone
Posts: 1644
Reg: 08-2005
|
Callum get in the kitchen and make me a pie. |
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