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David Vaughan
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 12:01 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Calling a comment retarded is not an argument but is abuse. Let me add it to the list. Simon says, in rational support of his views:
axe to grind pushing atheism arrogant immature narrow-minded christphobe scared phobia of christians narrow minds bashed what I believe witch hunt one-eyed retarded
I shall expand the list as necessary.

You pointed out you were not a muslim. That suggests it is unlikely you were brought up a muslim, although conversion from any one woo to another happens. Your actual religion suggests you were brought up in a nominally christian family or culture. You might equally have been Buddhist or Scientologist. Religious beliefs are predicted principally by your parents' beliefs and by encounters between religions of differing economic strength, not by any evidence in the religion. To believe ideas without evidence has equal merit from one idea (or non-idea) to another. If you have evidence for your god, feel free to provide it.

By the way, to save you future stress in research, I do not need a dictionary to understand words.
David Vaughan
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 12:07 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aaron, how you make your living represents your commercial interest. If Simon Martin advertised his IT services here, that would be in his commercial interest.

You might notice (it involves reading) that Simon Martin said earlier in reply to me that he sought or obtained no commercial interest from his invitation and I replied that I took his reply at face value.

I am continuing to write on this thread only because Simon Martin declined my private invitation for us both to stop, or at least to hold a discussion privately or on a more appropriate forum.
Aaron Mead
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 01:24 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree.

1.By definition, a commercial interest doesn't define ones living. A 'method of income' is a more appropriate term for how someone makes a living, with commercial interest reserved primarily for larger scale business and commerce.

2.Further, a commercial interest, with commerce and its defintion in mind, involves the trading, purchasing and selling of tangible goods and services in search of tangible profits.

3.The 'reward' of doing religious work, as put forth by earlier posts; well, they aren't physical, they aren't currency, they can't be traded, bought or sold, you can't actually acquire them either, you only think you can (because you don't find out till later in most religions anyway) they don't list on the ASX and they can't be swapped for lager at my botle-o.


With those three points in mind, its correct to say that you would be drawing a very very very long bow, to use commercial interest to define ones living, when many more appropriate terms spring to mind first, and you would break the bloody thing by trying to use it in the context of Miles ranting jibberish.
David Vaughan
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 03:01 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Except, I did not say "use commercial interest to define one's living", nor did I relate my post to that of Miles Baker; I spoke to you.

You construct straw men against which to argue.
Aaron Mead
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 03:22 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But I did not quote you. If anything , I drew a possible train of thought, for anyone thinking of going down that road.

quote: "you would be drawing"


Very different to saying "You are drawing"
Straw men?


Read it again, David.
Aaron Mead
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 03:26 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In fact read the whole topic to see why your post is related by default to that of Miles.
David Vaughan
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 04:47 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"would be drawing" means something you said or want me to say, and I didn't.

You related my post to that of Miles. I didn't.

I made a comment about commercial interest and you sought to redefine it arse-about for your own ends.

Terrific stuff.
Aaron Mead
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 05:20 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


David Vaughan wrote on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 04:47 pm:

would be drawing" means something you said or want me to say, and I didn't.




I didn't quote you, however. Now you are saying its something I wanted you to say. Need a big run up to jump to that conclusion.

David Vaughan wrote on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 04:47 pm:

You related my post to that of Miles. I didn't.




I never said you related it, it is related because it follows the arguments in this thread. Context!! I think you are being far too trivial for an online forum- this isn't a G8 summit.

Im almost going to leave this merry go-round (commercial interest) and go back to the dodgem cars ('faggots' and other bundled goods.)
Michael Long
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 06:53 pm, by:  Michael Long (Longy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Miles Baker wrote on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 05:20 pm:

Well "commercial interest" does not necessarily imply monetary reward.
A commercial interest implies only that you are doing something in exchange for reward.




You have a commercial interest in this tread as well then; you get your rocks off by belittling other people. Now Miles, you should have stated that in your first post.
Simon Martin
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Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 10:28 pm, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David: your statistics are retarded. Yes I like that word. The young adults pastor @ citipointe COC is an arab, a muslim convert i'm pretty sure, and I know tons of people from other religions from other parts of the world that have converted to christianity, and as stated numerous time, I am not here to defend my religion because I don't have too.

And for the record, Miles and everyone else who has chopped pentecostals the whole time. I grew up an anglican, my parents were anglican, the rest of my family is still anglican, though not very serious. I found the truth for myself, and I love the church that I go to now. To a lot of people the stereotype of church is morbid/boring. I actually love going to church.

My parents, me and my sister, and a lot of my cousins are now in the pentecostal church, from anglican. There were also some Catholic girls who came to one of our 'rock concerts' recently (lol) and she is now pentecostal.

Why am I saying this? I don't really know, but it sure makes for a great case about you talking about normal people that aren't 'brainwashed' into the pentecostal church.

and David I declined your personal invitation to continue this in private, basically because you're the one who started it in the first place to make yourself look intelligent, and continue to try and do so, while making yourself... well, people can judge that for themselves, and have.

If you want I can paste the pm and show everyone how knowledgable and unbeatable you really think yourself to be.

And btw, I was just at my pastors house. And your number 1 atheist in the world , mr Dawkins, which for some reason you want me to go and discuss religion on his forum, with all the other atheists (sounds like a fair and neutral ground doesn't it), recently had a debate or 2 with a guy called john lennox over his books, and I haven't watched it yet, but my pastor tells me that by the end of it richard dawkins was agreeing with the things john lennox was saying. But that's a story for another time. :-)
Boris Siljanoski
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 02:49 am, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Simon have you joined this car club?
Mike Bradberry
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 07:13 am, by:  Mike Bradberry (Halflife) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just another slant on this subject of religion. As I believe I am god and that I create my universe in every moment of my life, does that make me religious?
I'm sure there are those of you who will not understand what I am on about, but this is a philosophy I can really understand and believe to be true.
I feel it has at least as much validity as any religion on earth. No-one can tell me it's rubbish or can't be proven as it is simply my belief and therefore my truth. What you believe has no bearing.
As for those who might say I'm an ego-centric idiot are the ones who don't understand where I'm coming from.
As for people having a different point of view to myself; I'm so pleased they do as it makes my world a far more interesting place.
Simon Martin
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 07:59 am, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boris: If I never joined it, why would I be telling others about it?
David Vaughan
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 09:32 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The statistics are accurate, there is no problem about that. Argument by exception rather than falsification has no bearing, especially since I had already pointed out the fact of exceptions before you decided to repeat as if it were new information. I note that the bulk of your examples had a background of a Judeao-christian or Abrahamic god, with variations in the pretty colours and patterns.

I did not mention "brainwashed". You did. You will eventually notice that I do not use such meaningless terms. I had thought you might use different techniques of argument but you seem to be having real difficulty getting away from emotive labelling.

I spent most of this and the other thread pointing out I was not engaged in debate and after my private e-mail you in effect said to bring it on. Therefore I am now starting that discussion but you want me to stop. I am happy to do that without recriminations, or as I offered previously we can talk privately, with no audience and no leaks.

Oh, and Mr Dawkins is not my No 1 atheist for the fairly simple reason I and a hell of a lot of other people were there before him, not to mention the fact that atheism is disbelief, not a movement with leaders, and disbelievers are found across the social and political spectrum.

Here is some census data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics:
ABS retards. Note the first chart, showing that secularism is growing compared with all religions. There has been a steady drift away from churches since the first Census in 1901 and it has accelerated in the last sixty years. As of 2006 secularism has caught anglicans and only catholics remain a few points ahead. At the present rate I expect they will go down by the 2016 or 2021 census, unless the economic crisis worsens. Past recessions show that people tend to give god a temporary run when they are feeling more desperate, like buying lottery tickets.

Apropos your pastor's opinions on the Dawkins/Lennox debate, why not simply give people a link to the debate so they can judge for themselves rather than have it biassed by you, me or a passing leprechaun? Here it is. You can read or listen.
Miles Baker
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:14 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aaron,

Your pathetic attempts at repeating the same shovel joke over and over are tiring. If a joke doesn't work the first time, it sure won't work the second. If you are trying to "troll" me back, it is not going to work. Making you huff and puff is my game. I don't fall for my own tricks.

I notice you two are great at quoting me the exact definition of "commercial". However you are failing at addressing the fact that Simon does think he gets some reward for advertising his religion, and that is against the spirit of the forum's rule. You also have absolutely nothing to say about the absurd quotes from your bible. It is pretty clear that you are not supposed to be hanging around with people of other religions - and you are supposed to kill them if they try to convert you.

Also, Aaron your wife should have long hair and should not speak in church. Anything she needs to learn she should ask you. Do you enforce that rule from your bible? If not, why not?

And as it is now Sunday lunch time, I am off to a place I bet you have never seen the inside of Aaron. The gym. Perhaps for your poor wife's sake you should convert?
Aaron Mead
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:55 am, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you just worked yourself up enough, never mind the gym :-)
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 12:03 pm, by:  Paul Knox (Surreal) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Simon , by definition Pentacostal followers do not listen to music, so i put to you that having "rock concerts" is a way to convert young people to the faith.
I have personal experience of being hired as musician for a pentacostal wedding only to abused and berrated by guests when playing some background music over dinner, and the worst part was they didn't serve alchohol either because thats taboo as well.
It still perplexs me to this day , why hire me in the first place ?

I have to endure the Easter fest , christian music festival in Toowoomba every year, the list of acts pretending to be christian is pathetic.
The number of death metal/heavy metal , gutteral illegible lead singers is laughable.
Put God in a lyric or 2 and suddenly your a christian act, with a gauranteed audience.

Did you see the news this morning of Japanese bhuddist monk's rapping and offering beer to join the faith.

Music is a great recruitment tool.
So are car clubs.!!!

When did religion stop becoming about religion, interpreting it anyway you like.... in an effort to ultimately recruit members.

If i was a chef and said , "hey i went to this great restuarant the other night".

Does that constitute commercial interest?

it does if I'm the chef at that restuarant, or maybe a part owner , or a relative or friend owns it, and my job is to attract clientele.


Simon , Religion and cars are a contradiction anyway.

Religion tells us that the earth is only 10,000 years old.

So what is your car's fuel tank ????

Fossil fuels take millions of years to form.

Does your fiancee' wear a diamond on her finger by chance ???

Simon , the day cavemen carved a statue of them selves , they created god.
A god in the form of themselves. They started sitting around and thinking on a higher level, why am i here and what is all this stuff.

Then Science came along to explain it all.

David is alot more eloquante than i when getting his point across and you've picked a fight I feel you cannot win , especially against David.

I would leave this alone Simon before David personally takes it upon himself to disprove religion,God,alah,bhudda,chrishna & Ganoosh all in one fowl swoop.
Justin Burnes
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:21 pm, by:  Justin Burnes (Justinb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Paul!
Paul Knox
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:43 pm, by:  Paul Knox (Surreal) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks Justin.

just my 2c.
Dave Hart
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:44 pm, by:  Dave Hart (Davyboy) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Surely there was cars when Jesus was around.
Wasn't his dad a carpainter?
Miles Baker
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:50 pm, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nah Aaron, unlike you I care about my body. Even if I didn't, if I was you I'd care enough about my partner not to subject her to the horror of having to encounter you in the bedroom.

So I'll keep going to the gym thanks. You keep going to church instead.
Aaron Mead
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 03:49 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

....wowsers, still trying!


Keep it up son!
Simon Martin
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 04:24 pm, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miles, you've taken just about every scripture you posted out of context, so I'm not going to bother arguing christianity with anyone, including you David.. It's futile, because neither of us is going to change our beliefs no matter how convincing the argument.

Lol @ Paul for saying David could disprove that God exists. You cannot prove, or disprove that God exists. If you think otherwise you aren't very smart.

And Paul I dunno what you are going on about not listening to music. I play drums, bass, guitar, piano and I sing as well, not all at the same time of course. But that's what we do instead of hymns. 'Rock concerts' as you refer to them as, are our normal every Sunday church service, it's how we roll.

And I have to agree with you on Easterfest, some of them are rubbish, but others are great too.

And Paul IF the Earth is 10,000 years old, then there would probably be a theory of the fossils being the same kind of age I feel. Once again, not going into the debate, pointless.

And I'm not trying to win the fight, never was, Just pointing out arguing about religion is fruitless, have done all along, and by David and Miles constantly going on about religion it just shows they're not actually interested in being reasonable.
Aaron Mead
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 04:32 pm, by:  Aaron Mead (Aaron) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen.
David Vaughan
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 05:06 pm, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Edit:

On reflection I have decided to take down this post and leave this thread behind.

Anyone who saw my post and is responding to it, Please stop.

I have taken a copy of it just in case any response which gets through misrepresents what I said though.

cheers
David
Simon Martin
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 09:49 pm, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Horray :-)

So who wants to join
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 10:24 pm, by:  James Harris (Haro) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Dave Hart wrote on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:44 pm:

Surely there was cars when Jesus was around.
Wasn't his dad a carpainter?




Simon Martin
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:41 pm, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus drove a Honda.

All the disciples were in one accord.
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Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:42 pm, by:  Boris Siljanoski (Z2tt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Simon all I needed was a Yes or No answer. I just wanted to know if your a member so I can ask you more about the club.

Do you guys take your bibles along on the cruises you go along to, and study them on the cruises?
Matthew Sharpe
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 06:44 am, by:  Matthew Sharpe (Madmatt) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Simon Martin wrote on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:41 pm:

Jesus drove a Honda.




vTec just kicked in, Hallelujah!
David Vaughan
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 08:52 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boris, the club is based in a Pentecostal church and the owner of the club, Joshua Booth (via Booth Family Trust trading as Brushland Enterprises) was explicit that its purpose was evangelical. He is also trying to build and extend it as a commercial venture. This was published in the Salvation Army's magazine "Warcry". Whether they take bibles on cruises or not does not change their intent. This may be what you want so I am only informing, not advising.

For information on
Pentecostals, Wikipedia is as good a start as any. Among their common beliefs is that of bible inerrancy, which is to say earth or at least humanity is only up to 10,000 years old and all that sort of crap. You might have noticed above that Simon Martin coyly wrote:

Simon Martin wrote on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 04:24 pm:

IF the Earth is 10,000 years old, then there would probably be a theory of the fossils being the same kind of age


No, not a theory. There might be a fantasy endeavouring to support internally contradictory old tribal legends. There might be a pile of unscientific drivel.

Still, Simon Martin does not mind. He is perfectly right when he says you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the invisible flying pink unicorn, yet he is an atheist with regard to the unicorn, to Thor, Siva and innumerable other gods. Only one god left to go.

This covers most of the content of my post which I removed above. I was trying to indicate to Simon Martin above that both of us keeping quiet was the general idea. Three times I have offered this and three times he has missed the point.

Simon Martin is advertising on this forum one or more commercial ventures, not simply a common-interest club.
Simon Martin
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 09:05 am, by:  Simon Martin (Commander) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^ Nice job at leaving it.

Boris, Dunno I joined like a day before i posted it here. They cruise thursday nights i think, which I can't do anyway cause i work. I highly doubt they do a bible study on a cruise, though David apparently believes they would. I haven't actually met any of the guys personally, just talked to a few on the forums.

David. You sound like you take evolution as fact, not theory, which I find absolutely hilarious, for different reasons, mainly that it has as much fossil evidence to back it as the loch ness monster.

And I am not an atheist in any way, as I believe in a higher power, be it one or many Gods.

You have offered to keep quiet on a useless and irrelevant argument that you started, now you're trying to be 'reasonable' and make yourself look all mature by ending it?
Anika Le
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 09:19 am, by:  Anika Le (Hime1901) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seriously guys, get over it. And you say girls get angsty... lol
Miles Baker
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 09:50 am, by:  Miles Baker (Milesb) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha. He believes the earth is 10k years old and that evolution isn't fact. Look what you jumped into bed with Aaron.

It's as simple as "they're out of context" hey Simon? Wow. Can I get you a bottle of metho then or a tiger snake? No? Oh is the bible wrong? Or do you know what it REALLY means when it happens to say things you don't like?
David Vaughan
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Monday, January 25, 2010 - 11:24 am, by:  David Vaughan (Davidv) Edit Post Delete Post Print Post   View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin Only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Simon Martin wrote on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 09:05 am:

^^^ Nice job at leaving it.


I left it. You came back.


quote:

I highly doubt they do a bible study on a cruise, though David apparently believes they would.


Rubbish. I pointed out the fact that the purpose of the club was evangelical and Simon Martin has tried to divert that into a straw man argument.


quote:

David. You sound like you take evolution as fact, not theory, which I find absolutely hilarious, for different reasons, mainly that it has as much fossil evidence to back it as the loch ness monster.


Simon, it sounds like you are quite extraordinarily ignorant of basic science. Evolution is indeed a fact, without reference to fossils but based on current laboratory testing and on natural observation. Yes folks, new species have been bred, no gods involved.

YECs (Young Earth Creationists) confuse the fact of evolution with Darwin's theory of natural selection as the explanatory mechanism for observed evolution. Incidentally, evolution was already accepted by many scientists before Darwin came up with the explanatory theory, just like gravity was known before Galileo, Newton and Einstein.


quote:

And I am not an atheist in any way, as I believe in a higher power, be it one or many Gods.


Interesting. Either you are atheistic with respect to certain gods or you believe in every god there is. Aren't any of them jealous of one another? Didn't the inerrant bible say that? What obeisance do you give to Zeus? At Citipointe do you read from the Bhagavad Gita as freely as the bible, or is your claim to believe in "one or many gods" self-serving tripe?

Why is Simon Martin promoting a commercial venture based from a church for which he works?

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