Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 11:19 am, by: Don Bagnall(Baggs)
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it.
When you are lucky enough to be accepted as an immigrant to another country, then as for as I (and I suspect the silent majority) are concerned, you'd bloody well better adopt the Western way of doing things..........Or piss off back to the country you came from!!!.
Europe is rooted, the Oz & Kiwi governments let far too many immigrants into our respective countries. No one asked ME if it was ok!
The problem is, we are seen as being for too tolerant of other "Societies", and as such, a "Soft touch" for immigration.
I'm glad I live in a predominantly middle class North Island city that "Discourages" immigrants to settle here unless they are, English, Australians, Canadians, South Africans, Rhodesians etc;............Works for me
Our governments (who are elected by WE the people) need to get it through their thick heads that the vast MAJORITY of Middle New Zealand, and I suspect Australia DON'T WANT the dregs of the world landing on our doorstep, and bringing with them THEIR Religious beliefs, that as far as I am concerned are NOT welcome.
Why the Netherlands is bowing down to a bunch of Eastern loonies is beyond me...........Deport the lot of em, back to whatever POS country they came from...........Good riddance!
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 12:24 pm, by: Mike Beck(Gold_40gt)
Word to Don! My thoughts on the matter EXACTLY.
As with you Aaron. It is so important he doesn't get murdered.... which could happen in a heartbeat if his guard is let down for a brief moment. Probably wont happen since he is under 24 7 police protection… funny that, it just goes to show what a fierce violent opponent he is dealing with. Good old ‘peaceful Islam’ huh!
Really, if you stand back and look, all the signs are out there now in 2010 with what is coming... this is the decade where a point of no return will be made if nothing is done. It's just a matter of getting the bulk population of many countries to wake up and speak out against what their governments are doing uncontrollably and drop this cultural relativism BS not to mention this new age political correctness which is allowing this ethnic take over and Islaminsation of so many countries. All it is doing is eroding the foundations of these countries Western routes & democracy in Europe to replace with a ridiculous totalitarian ideology – its starting in Britain with this Islamic Sharia law system thats slowly being implemented, it is insane! Search it on google if your not familiar with what it is. It is all happening under our noses.
The media has a lot to blame for regarding this, so many people are ignorant to what's going on because they DON'T here about it since all mainstream media is completely liberal and bias, not wanting to upset any Muslims for a fear of backlash… It’s just got to such a delicate pathetic point… just mind boggling
We can talk about this serious issue as much as we like but none of it matters unless the truth is really broadcast out to the public in force. Then change can be made to reverse what could eventuate in the coming decades.
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 06:33 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
Perhaps it would be useful for me to add that I am not laying any traps here, and do not propose "an answer" although I certainly expect to find myself highlighting inconsistencies in views or inconsistencies with reality at some point.
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:34 pm, by: Aaron Mead(Aaron)
I believe they are cases of ordinary crime, perpetuated unfortunately on a particular minority that is easily targeted.
I came to know Indian students at Monash who were really intelligent, respectful, and modest many years ago. They could also render an entire block of flats aromatically defunct with their cooking. The fact they are physically small framed, and not known for retaliation or retribution, or for having group violence association, but are often found taking the last train home, alone, makes them attractive to low life punks looking to prove something amongst themselves.
The media, no doubt adds to the 'popularity'. I think there are also a few ineradicable racists in Australia also, but they too are also too cowardly to take on anything that poses a real danger. }
Dan McColl Goo Roo Victoria (The Nazi State) Active V8 and the Beast.
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:06 pm, by: Raj Somarouthu(Edinlexusv8)
You never choose to be born white! So it is not an achievement and stop being proud of something which you have not achieved but got it by luck! If you were born white and your parent unfortunately somehow abandoned you in an eastern country then you will only speak, behave and follow the culture and religion of that country. This is very simple to understand, as simple as 1+1 = 2! Being white will not make you speak any western language or guarantee western values. It is not in your genes!!
If you are hurt in an accident and you got blood in a hospital do you know who donated the blood? Do you even know from where it came from? Being white, does it guarantee you good health? Does it keep you away from cancer? Does it make you more intelligent?
To be honest Industrial revolution in europe is the ONLY one that took the western world past the eastern world. Coz then the western civilisation managed to manufacture guns, cannons and other weapons in a large scale. This helped them to conquer most of the world which they could not do for thousands of years! I am very happy this thing even happened. The whole world became small and we and our future generations can enjoy a bit of all the worlds!
Most of the immigrants coming from countries who have civilisations and cultures existing for a few thousand years! Immigrating to another country may take a few hours if not months, but changing a culture and understanding and adapting to a new way of life will take more than years if not generations.
Anyway my logic is very simple, they (immigrants) need more time for the transition to western values!
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:37 pm, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
Typically it seems to take about three generations to assimilate. The first lot are pretty much missing home and "more X than the people in X", the 2nd generation is about 90% "local" and the 3rd wonders WTF their grandparents are on about, effectively indistinguishable from earlier locals.
That is an "average" progression of course, but fairly well documented in studies in America and Europe on what I have read.
I agree with you, Aaron, although I would add a bit more for copycat crime and additional reporting, both being encouraged by the fact of media reporting (notice I did not say "by the media").
Dan, if assimilation includes swapping one religion for another, why bother? The only thing more acceptable about anglo-catholics is that they have become more secularised than some others (Islam, Pentecostals). One of the effects of post-WWII immigration was a further increase in the Catholic population in Australia, previously sustained mainly by the Irish. Did we get swamped by Italian Catholics and the Mafia, for example? Nuh. Problems, sure, but nothing ordinary laws could not handle.
Short of the country being invaded, it is not going to happen with any other group either.
Making sure there is a recognised separation between church and state, and that state laws come first over any religious opinion, those are the things I always want to see.
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:39 pm, by: Raj Somarouthu(Edinlexusv8)
All people in here should understand that Western Europe is 65% non religious! We dont believe in any religion! Start your argument from this perspective! This is not same as AUS, comparing this with your society and bringing out your personal views is not arguing the case. If anti multi cultural values is what majority of Europe wants then why would the EU and the countries adopt multi culturalism? People here dont want to choose one religious fanatic to another! We dont believe in any religion but humanity! Religion used to be the one teaching moral and human values for more than a few thousand years now but man is so mature that these moral values are built inot our value system. We dont need a religion (either Islam or Christianity) to teach us how to be human. We all have human rights and we know how to respect each other and enjoy multiculturalism! Another reason to opt for multi culturalism is becoz of this, I suppose -
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 10:17 pm, by: Dan McColl(Hoon)
Raj Somarouthu wrote on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:06 pm:
Anyway my logic is very simple, they (immigrants) need more time for the transition to western values!
Problem is that many are not even attempting to transition. They are forming their own communities and forcing their beliefs onto those already here. Forcing school curriculums (which have been fine for decades) to be changed because it doesn't fit within their own beliefs and other such nonsense.
It's not about swapping one for another, David. It's about living within the accepted guidelines of the country you are immigrating into, and abiding by the laws and customs of said country.
I think it's more about already assimilated 'Aussies' have finally had enough of the political correctness bullshit and the 'we have to be nice to everyone' bullshit and the 'let any stupid •••• into our country' open door policy and they are finally jacking up about it.
I think the indian student was just un-lucky and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I think the situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 10:49 pm, by: Raj Somarouthu(Edinlexusv8)
Dan McColl wrote on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 10:17 pm:
Problem is that many are not even attempting to transition. They are forming their own communities and forcing their beliefs onto those already here. Forcing school curriculums (which have been fine for decades) to be changed because it doesn't fit within their own beliefs and other such nonsense.
Yeah I agree with you on this. I am totally against this sort of schools and stuff. But all this is because of segregation! Immigration rules donot make everybody equal and most of the immigrants are poor and live in bad/poor areas. So the transition takes a while for these families. I see a lot of segregation of ethinic minorities in UK and it scares the •••• out of me sometimes to go pass through these areas! They are poorly maintained/managed with loads of crime! I sometimes cannot believe that these are also parts of UK! These double standards are what that results in communities sticking to what ever they have including religion and values.
Miles Baker Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 02:48 am, by: Miles Baker(Milesb)
They arise from general racism in this country?
There are racist people around, but eh, probably not.
They are cases of ordinary crime?
Probably.
They are being beaten up by the media and in fact are no more frequent than attacks on others (racially motivated or not)?
Probably.
They are the fault of the students for swanning about looking rich?
And in bad areas at bad times.
Aaron, Judeo Christian values? I'm sorry but if you want to claim the currently morally acceptable values of society as being "Judeo Christian" I'm going to lump you with all of the unacceptable sh1t the bible has in it too. Bottom line, judaism and christianity trying to claim "credit" for whatever parts of their doctrine are currently seen as good is BS. Good has been good long before your garbage religion showed up. Morality is based in genetic empathy, not in religious BS doctrine.
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 05:11 am, by: Raj Somarouthu(Edinlexusv8)
There are some things I dont understand! 1) Why people are so patriotic about their country?? Every school in every country teaches that their country is great! Is there any country that is really called Great (other than Great Britain calling itself Great ;-) ).
2) Why are people so fanatic about their religion?? It is a PERSONAL thing and choice. Nobody can prove anything about this creation/evolution or universe with their religion. We are so insignificant w.r.t this universe! People just dont realise that tho being highly educated.
3) If a person is born in this planet, does he not have a minimum human right to travel and settle where ever he likes on this planet. The governments are already regulating immigration by only letting people who are skilled and highly educated (through points based system) so that they contribute to the society.
So why bother with hostilities and stereotyping and talking bad about immigrants. Most of the immigrants are economic migrants. If they have enough money like in Saudi or Dubai they wont be immigrating! It is as similar to a family moving from a village to a city to find work and find better education for their children and better life to their family!
To be honest this issue can only be discussed in a true and fair sense between people who dont have any hostile views about immigrants. If you already made up your mind (like Geert Wilders) you cannot see the other side!
David Vaughan Goo Roo Relaxed, but no provincial. IS300
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 09:15 am, by: David Vaughan(Davidv)
WILDERS AND ISLAM I suppose I should put on record that I consider Geert Wilders a lying racist runt from the extreme right. Do some research on sites other than those promoted by the Wilders-right. I trust that your answers to my "Indian" questions can be translated by you to the tiny (5%) proportion of Muslims in Holland, a population which is declining as a proportion of Dutch people and which has no political party, and no agenda which will not be blown away in a generation by existing Dutch society.
That does not make me sympathetic to things like closed communities, religious schools (of any persuasion) or maltreatment of women. I detest them all. That was a bit of what I meant by rule of law rather than rule of religion or tribal traditions.
INTEGRATION Part of my point above, though, was that the behaviours against which people rail typically last about one-and-a-half generations and by the 3rd or 4th generation older immigrants are busy protesting about new people coming in.
Ryan, you are too bloody late! This place is already "multicultural" and has been since we conquered the aboriginals, mixing Irish and British who considered themselves totally distinct, and shortly after that quite a lot of Chinese. Have you compered your diet and acceptable social habits with those of only fifty years ago? Most of that comes from culturally different people integrating with yet changing our society. Your own ancestors came from a place considered pretty backward by the British a century ago or less.
What I agree with is that we do not want a fractured society of separate groups. Well, I don't. There will always be differences (pluralism) so long as there is not tribalism beyond having fun with sport.
EDUCATION AND ETHICS By the way, people favouring "our" ethics over those of "others" might want to look up research which shows that everyone on the planet has the same core ethics, distorted in many cases by later overlays of religion which was introduced to explain and teach the ethics we already had. Faced with moral dilemmas, we come to the same decisions unless some religion has told us to treat someone else as a non-person.
Problems with less-educated tribal and religious groups are exactly that, and not based on "race". Check the genetics; there are no sub-species of the species homo sapiens. Any cultural, educational and economic differences can be expunged in three generations. Getting people there without being brutal on the first generation is the difficult bit, hence you don't want too rapid a rate of change.
I have pretty much said what I wanted, so I will probably shut up for a bit. Like I said, social problems are difficult. These are my views. If you plan to reply then I ask you to do me a favour by reading the above entirely at least twice, so I don't just spend my time correcting blunders.
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 10:03 am, by: Gary Redman(Gary)
Ryan Rankovic wrote on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 09:37 pm:
I think Ryan's comment means the new regime of "multiculturalism" (read Islam)
And Ryan, be careful of what you hope for. As we are considered infidels, then our death is also part of their "grand plan"
Our spineless goverments and bleeding heart minorities will continue to allow the total dilution of our accepted way of life. At what point will all this become too clear. When it is too bloody late to reverse it without massive genocide on both sides. Let the great hairy unwashed then decide if fight or flight is their option. I know where I'll be fighting (if I haven't already been blown to bits by a scumbag coward whilst going about my normal daily life in shopping centre or restaurant"
Miles Baker Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 12:18 pm, by: Paul Knox(Surreal)
Social issues are very complex, but can also be very simplistic at times.
In Toowoomba we have an influx of Sudanese. I am not racist , but i am struggling with the immigration and integration of the sudanese.
I have first hand experience with alot of issues dealing with Sudanese.
My wife Runs a Real estate office. They have had to take the "silent" policy of NOT renting homes to Sudanese, because they wreck the homes and the courts take pity on them because they don't really understand the rules.
Isn't there one set of laws for all, and ignorance is not a Defence?
As tenants they urinate and defecate on the floors and walls ( mainly children ) and basically destroy the house.
Now as an owner, you would expect to have the courts support remuneration to get the house fixed , but this has not been the case , so as a result , an unwritten policy must be put in place to not rent to a select Group of people.
Yes this is Discrimination, But... if you were the owner of that investment home , what would you want your real estate agent to do ????
Secondly , my father inlaw has recently retired and decided to help the community by driving a bus for the Single mothers (Sudanese).
1. they won't get on the bus if there is another Sudanese mother/family that came from another TRIBE. 2. if they do they will fight ,often violently. 3. They organize to be picked up then don't turn up. The bus is community funded , and in a recent evaluation over 70% of funds are being wasted by non pickups , late arrivals , late departures, Fuels costs , because of the Sudanese's lack of respect for the other users and the system itself.
How is it that we are expected to welcome the Sudanese , when they themselves don't get along , because of long standing Tribal Fueding.
The other thing that gets me is my sister in law is recently divorced with 3 kids. Her single mother benefits are a joke in comparison to an equivalent Sudanese woman.
Now before you start arguing their case, the Sudanese mother has a Husband, but he lives in another Government provided home.
He gets Benefits , and she gets benefits as she is seen as a single mother. His other wife and family gets benefits as well.
No as far as I'm aware poligomy is illegal in this country, I can't have 2 wives , so why are the Sudanese allowed to enter this country.
One Sudanese women with 5 children will get in benefits close to $200,000 a year. yes that is correct, anyone here earn $200,000 a year? So that family unit of a husband & 2 wives and possibly 10 children , with get from the Government , $400,000+ of tax payer dollars.
anyone here earn $400,000+ ???
The Teenage Boys wander the Streets at night in "GANGS" , are cashed up !! They are being turned away from Night clubs because they EXPECT free drinks, start fights , grope the white girls because the Sudanese girls are not allowed to go out by the men, and when the police try to talk to them , they can't speak english ????
If this is multi culturalism , well I have to ask what are they giving to our community ?? What benefits will they bring to our community ??
They will be perpetually in the welfare system. there is no incentive to go out and find a job. Employers do not want to hire them. They don't try to integrate , and as such the community doesn't want them. The Federal Gov makes them immigrate to a Rural Centre, not cities or Coastal communities.
Tamworth Mayor Refused to take them , now Toowoomba is the landing point for them.
Wouldn't another African country not be a better option for these people to get a better life , but be able to integrate into a society that is familiar and easier.
They are sponsors by Church Groups to come to the country and approach Red Cross to pay bills for them as they are "POOR". The Church Groups Coach them to use the Discrimination tag if things don't go their way.
My father in law has stopped driving a community bus , because he fears he will accused of Discrimination.
I have stopped giving to Red Cross in protest, because i have seen first hand Australians have been turned away , yet Sudanese welcomed , because they are seen as more in need. ??? the Red Cross will come to the Real Estate office and pay the miniscule damages awarded by the courts for them.
They are not held accountable in any way. Yet you and I are ?
Is this Discrimination ?
This Doesn't seem Right , I actually feel bad because , i have never seen myself as a racist , but confronted with this situation , maybe I am ?
All immigrate come to this country with their own unique beliefs, culture , skills. I don't see any of this with the Sudanese.
Multi cultural may sound nice , but shouldn't we evaluate somehow whether immigrants will assimilate or add to our community rather than be a burden and a Problem.
Monday, February 08, 2010 - 03:58 pm, by: Aaron Mead(Aaron)
Miles Baker wrote on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 02:48 am:
Aaron, Judeo Christian values? I'm sorry but if you want to claim the currently morally acceptable values of society as being "Judeo Christian" I'm going to lump you with all of the unacceptable sh1t the bible has in it too. Bottom line, judaism and christianity trying to claim "credit" for whatever parts of their doctrine are currently seen as good is BS. Good has been good long before your garbage religion showed up. Morality is based in genetic empathy, not in religious BS doctrine blah blah blah.
Clearly, I've not claimed anything. I'm sorry, but if you are going to jump to conclusions like that, then I won't bother explaining, because listening to you cut and paste books on the genealogy of morals is going to be boring. More so than you trying to enighten us all with genealogical hypotheses that have been available as printed literature for a couple of centuries now and that you, really, know very little about.
Try and not f*ck this thread up with petty pot shots. You've done well so far Miles, but I can see where you're headed, so turn back.
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