Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:25 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Unfortunately the first page of this thread was deleted. The original content will follow.
--- Posted by Mike Beck on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 12:12 am:
From my perspective I see the entire man made global warming issue to be a world wide hoax.
It has become an easy 'problem' for the big corporate industries and governments to hijack fooling the majority of the world population into thinking that human activity is to solely blame.
Through this it means they can acheive two key goals
Profit off all the various schemes & investments put forward to 'combat climate change' Create a new global regulation and control system with all key industrialised countries.
At present, if you stand back and look at the global scene already SO much of what goes on is revolving around the 'environmental impact of global warming'. The amount of effect it's has is visible everywhere, for example the whole Hybrid / Electric car industry has taken off and well Scientists involved with studying the climate have never had better funding.
Imagine how many people would be out of a job if it was said man made global warming was a false claim. It would be chaotic for a period!
Above all it really seems the UN and EU all those horrid unions are steering things in to their narrow way of thinking. Their ICPP (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has a lot ot answer for, after all they are linked to this insane anti-CO2 tact, saying that is the route cause of everything.
Being a car enthusiast it really annoys me how they have targeted and put ridiculous pressure and penalties on to manufactures of high performance sport vehicles to cut their emissions levels. After all in the late 90's their regulations killed off the Aston Martin V600 Vantage (The big Twin Screw V8 coupe) as apparently the few hundred in existence were too polluting to the environment with their CO2/Km outputs.
The ridiculous part of it all is how they have latched on to CO2 as being the main component to Global warming and driven it into the publics minds, quite clever as everyone in the world in some ways produces it so it makes everyone 'feel bad'. Like these people that decide "Hey I am so conscience about the environment and global warming I am not going to drive to work today I will ride my bike to cut down on CO2 levels"
What the most intriguing part of it is how actual real studies, the ones that aren't talked about by the Media or Governments because they don't support their regime is how man made CO2 outputs are actually less than what nature does by itself from the vast land masses, millions of animals, volcanoes and other active geological activity currently producing the NATURAL gas CO2.
Anyone who knows anything about natural cycles knows the earth goes in and out of warm and cool periods. Remember the Medieval warm period in the 1400's which was much warmer than what it is currently, so warm in fact vineyards were all over the place in England.
The most logical cause of this change according to many genuine unbiased scientists is that the temperature is regulated by the Suns Solar activity and the earth's magnetic field. I wont prattle on too much about that but it seems to be the most realistic cause even though the pro man made GW scientists dismiss it there just is clearly a lot of lies being told at present.
What are your thoughts on this major issue of our time? Are you happy forking out more of your hard earned dollars paying 'to make a change'?
Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:28 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Posted by Miles Baker on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 02:38 am:
Hoax. The UN has been trying to get this crap going since th 80s. Why? Because it's a way for them to make themselves more important, be able to tax everyone, and have loads of cash.
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Posted by Ian Johnston on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:23 am:
It shouldnt be refered to as global warming, it is actually climate change, and it has been changing up and down for millions of years. The next faze in all this will be global cooling, and if you do some searching, thats not all that far away. Yes, it is a government way of slugging us another tax.
Incidently, I work at a natural CO2 gas plant. We pump the stuff out of the ground, and sell it to industries. So there Kevin Crudd, shove that up your jumper.
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Posted by Mike Beck on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 05:01 am:
Ian Johnston wrote on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:23 am:The next faze in all this will be global cooling, and if you do some searching, thats not all that far away.
Didn't that happen in the 1970's?
It was all the same back then accept the headlines were "Global Cooling, possible Ice Age!"
Major Sigh...
Apparently your right, according to the genuine scientists their prediction is a cooling trend soon caused by the ever changing solar activity.
Oh well I guess for now is just a matter to put up with it all for the meantime, I'm just thankful I am not a blind fool that has jumped on that silly band wagon.
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Posted by Murray Lund on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 05:04 am:
Ok, so let me get this straight. Thousands of scientists around the world, including those at the CSIRO, and the Bureau of Meteorology are involved in a global conspiracy to increase taxes and bring in a world government. I love a good conspiracy theory, but does that not sound just a little silly. M
Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:33 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Posted by Mike Beck on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 05:22 am:
Those scientists are totally bias, they will say anything and tweak any data they gather so their precious jobs are kept secure, by the Governments using their 'scientific research' to back their taxing plans. It all adds up...
"Carbon Credits" For example.
What a way to cash in a whole lot of hot air, literally!
Any scientist which refutes the man made CO2 cause of global warming is in some cases harassed, seen as an outcast and pretty much gets no external funding for whatever they usually research... so its no wonder the REAL truth is not presented as the false side of it has already taken over that entire science field.
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Posted by Matthew Sharpe on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 07:15 am:
Its nothing that has happened as a planned conspiracy - its just happened, and a lot of people have been able to make careers and money and power out of it, so its snowballed.
Its not total hokum, the planet is warming - the issue I have with it is that the evidence to link this warming almost entirely to human activity is weak at best, and it takes so much focus away from more important issues, like pending resource shortages.
The root of most of the worlds problems at the moment, IMO, is unchecked population growth. All the effort being poured into reducing greenhouse gas emissions would be better off being put into contraceptive measures for burgoning third and second world countries.
Of course if statisticians are right, we are heading for a global population crash in the next 20-75 years anyway.
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Posted by David Vaughan on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 07:24 am:
If you want to have this discussion (and there look to be about 600 pages of it on another forum I know) then start naming your sources. Something other than confirmation bias (real scientists with real truth) or argument by popularity.
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Posted by Gary Redman on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:48 am:
My source - common bloody sense - We are having this crap shoved back up our arses by bearded professors (with finacial gains in mind) and women with large hairy armpits (with no mind). take a city like Newcastle for example. We no longer have BHP, Tubemakers, Stewarts and Lloyds or Sulphide Corporation manufacturing in this city. We have cars and refrigerators using non-ozone deleting gases in their systems, we have catalytic converters on our cars, we have very efficient therma power stations, so why the hell are we now supposed to be the root cause of the Globe warming or cooling a couple of degrees. Should not this have all happened back in the 30s to 50s when the industrial revolution was taking place. we have never been more "cleaner" in our actions and look where it has got us - Proposed taxes on every product to be manufactured or sold, industry practices that now make it too difficult or expensive to operate, governments that tell us to go and buy a fan and don't use your airconditioner, power authorities that are fitting "smart meters" so they can discourage power useage by charging double the rate at peak times when evryone needs to cook their dinner or cool their house down. The CRAP just goes on and on. F@CK this country now. How do you start a revolution because I have had enough of these uneducated morons posing as politicians telling me how to live my life, and then charging me double for the privelege of it. Bring it on you hairy unwashed if you want a fight about it. I don't give a cat's scrotum if the planet gets 1 degree warmer this year because it will damn well get 1 degree colder the next. @rseholes!
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Posted by Miles Baker on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 11:05 am:
Murray most of the thousands are just hangers on who aren't involved. Many of the rest are piss poor scientists. Just because these guys are "scientists" doesn't mean they are smart. They trade off the good name of real scientists like Newton, Planck, Bohr, Darwin. I've met a few of these crackpots who have slapped their names to the reports. One in particular was tossed from Melb Uni for being an utter nut. Now he works for the aus gov. Like every field, at least 90% of the people in "science" are not superstars like Einstein, Fermi or Heisenberg
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Posted by Don Bagnall on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 04:20 pm:
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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Posted by Murray Lund on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 05:35 pm:
Very entertaining thread with some excellent rants. Thankyou to all contributors. My warning of the day: keep an eye out for scientists on 'grassy knolls', and my tip for the day: don't take financial advice from Barnaby Joyce.
Incidentally, as a naval officer, did you know that the sea passage across the top of the world is,for the first time in recorded history, now regularly navigable in summer as pack ice retreats. The Russians are getting very excited about trying to put a territorial claim on it. This of course does not prove human activity is the cause of global warming, but it is an interesting phenomenon.
Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:39 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Posted by David Vaughan on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 06:24 pm:
What do you mean, "financial"?
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Posted by Murray Lund on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 06:58 pm:
David, Barnaby (who is an accountant) seems to have a little difficulty grasping the difference between billion and millions of dollars.
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Posted by Ben Kelly on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 08:45 pm:
You know the scary thing about conspiracy theorists and people who generally dont accept modern science is that these people vote...and well I try to be a believer in democracy but its tough sometimes.
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Posted by Paul Ince on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:41 pm:
Climate change is effected on a massive scale ie; the sun, the earth, the atmosphere. Australia can spend all the billions of tax payer dollars it likes and we will 'almost' achieve infestesimal change. Why are we trying to compete with the sun???? The galaxy??? Tectonic plates??
There are people who WILL make money trading carbon credits. They will gladly take my tax dollars and turn them into personal assets with f*ck all change to the climate. The planet is in a cooling phase and this has disproved all warming models.
Why don't we have to search so hard for the truth.
Probably coz its buried under the potential for massive profits. But not for me and you.
The only truth I believe is peak oil. It will happen and it will be devastating. Think about the impact of $5 a litre fuel. Don't worry about .5 degree warming, worry about growing your own food when transport collapses.
Note to government: please spend my tax dollars on a solution to oil running out, I don't care if you think the temp will rise a degree in the next century. I am worried about getting food in the near future.
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Posted by Miles Baker on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:43 pm:
The arctic is open for the first time in recorded history. How long have we been sailing around there regularly? Not very long at all. And yes, even if it is the first time ever, that does not mean we caused it.
Murray if you believe the media is accurately reporting what anyone in this country says, thinks or means, you are crazy. They take everything out of context and blow it up into sensationalist "news".
Do you really think the man is that stupid to have said and meant exactly what they are reporting? I find it many times more likely they took part of a larger (possibly poorly worded) piece of speech out of context. If you fall for the nitpicking arguments this stuff spawns, you're being suckered in to all the cheap BS that passes for news and politics. Like Tony Abbott thinks women should do the ironing. COME ON.
Ben I believe perfectly in science. Real science. I hold a degree in it and have made my living in it for 10 years. I do not enjoy junk propaganda being passed off in the good name of real science - the scientific method and tradition I was educated in. This climate change stuff is garbage. Most of the "scientists" employed in it are poor scientists at best, and loons at worst. "Paleoclimatology" is an invented psuedo science.
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Posted by Ben Kelly on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:03 pm:
ok miles, lets say that theres a possibility that youre right. lets also agree that you and so called 'climate change skeptics' (a loaded term, because skepticism implies that there is good reason to doubt) are in the minority; then think about putting this into a risk matrix.
On the one hand you have big climate change, high probability, very bad outcome. your corner would be more like: low probability of climate change, still very bad outcome...you see what i mean? i still take the side of being conservative and minimising human impact on the environment. Dont forget we are also talking about impacts of pollution, poisons in the environment, loss of species etc.
i dont think its a debate youre going to win and i dont think the vast majority of people would agree with you. I also dont believe that its a conspiracy or a con. i think the con is for some scientists paid money by industry or right wing 'think tanks' to claim that current industry is doing no harm.
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Posted by Murray Lund on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:20 pm:
Suppose now communism has died a natural death we have to find some new conspiracy.
One world government, what a hoot!!! I haven't heard that old chestnut in ages, maybe since the 60's or 70's. Not too many signs of global agreement about anything at the moment.
Having seen Barnaby Joyce in action, I'm pretty sure he is a dumb as he appears, unless he puts it on of course. There does seems to be a trend for politicians to dumb down at the moment.I went to Uni with Tony Abbott, and he certainly puts on the average bloke act for the media. Rudd tried it, but it didn't work for him, so he's gone back to being himself, the nerdy geek. M
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Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:42 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Posted by Miles Baker on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:54 am:
Sorry Ben I don't agree with the way you even start that post. Another big lie of the climate change bunch is that they are the majority. Certainly not the case in scientific circles as the US Senate Minority hearings have established.
Regarding the rest of your post, you'd better get down to the church as well and start praying in case god is real. Pascal's Wager and all. And you'd better go to a mosque too. Oops those two aren't really compatible in the same body. But seriously, you have ignored the negative aspect of believing in climate change, and it's a big negative. You waste precious time, effort and resources chasing a white elephant. Meanwhile non-imaginary causes go begging.
You are mixing every environmental cause into climate change. I am all for reducing real pollution that has real proven consequences. Mercury and heavy metals? Proven bad, reduce them. Many issues like that SHOULD be looked at, but will be ignored chasing carbon dioxide. Remember: your lot only want to look at greenhouse gases. "Poisons in the environment"? Not part of your side's cause.
Again, you are claiming superior numbers where you have no proof. None exists. I put it to you that more people do not believe in climate change. Prove me wrong? No, my claim is as valid as yours. Then you claim bribes on scientists. With no proof I can claim the same. That argument is pointless - either of us can invent a boogey man. Where does it leave us? As the climate change supporters are claiming to know something, the burden of proof is on you. Burden not fulfilled.
I am a scientist. I will believe anything where there is proper scientific proof. I am not biased; I have no agenda. If the world is in danger I do want to know about it. Climate change does not cut the mustard. If it did I would get right behind it. As I said, I was taught about real science at uni. How it is researched, conducted, proven. "Climate change" has no place being called science. We don't believe things based on "what ifs" and hunches and half baked unproven garbage.
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Posted by Aaron Mead on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 07:24 am:
How long before the Australian voting public finds a Nuclear power plant project not only palatable, but needed? Anyone think it could be achieved in this decade?
Just thinking about peak oil again, and the hopefully soon to be re-re-released electric cars.
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Posted by David Vaughan on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 07:32 am:
Murray, I know . Sorry, I was being ironic, implying you could omit the "financial" part of the sentence.
I wouldn't rely on Barnaby Joyce to do anything other than try to get more money for farmers. He's from the school of the former Country Party; capitalise your profits and socialise your losses, so long as you are a farmer.
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Posted by Perry Morgan on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 08:17 am:
Some people may not have seen this before. -------------------------------------------------
Headline from
The Washington Post November 2nd, 1922. (The newspaper article was located in the Library of Congress archives by James Lockwood.)
Arctic Ocean Getting Warm; Seals Vanish and Icebergs Melt.
November, 1922. MONTHLY WEATHER REVIEW
THE CHANGING ARCTIC BY George Nicolas Ifft
(under date of October 10, 1922, the American Consul in Norway submitted the following report to the State Department, Washington, D.C.)
The Arctic seems to be warming up. Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers who sail the seas about Spitzbergen and the eastern Arctic, all point to a radical change in climatic conditions, and hitherto unheard of high temperatures in that part of the earth’s surface.
In August, 1922, the Norwegian Department of Commerce sent an expedition to Spitzbergen and Bear island under the leadership of Dr Adolf Hoel, lecturer on geology at the University of Christiana. Its purpose was to survey and chart the lands adjacent to the Norwegian mines on those islands, take soundings of the adjacent waters, and make other oceanographic investigations.
Dr Hoel, who has just returned, reports the location of hitherto unknown coal dposits on the eastern shores of Advent Bay - deposits of vast extent and superior quality. This is regarded as of first importance, as so far most of the coal mined by the Norwegian companies on those islands has not been of the best quality.
The oceanographic observations have, however, been even more interesting. Ice conditions were exceptional. In fact, so little ice has never before been noted. The expedition all but established a record, saling as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes in ice-free water. This is the farthest north ever reached with modern oceanographic apparatus.
The character of the waters of the great polar basin has heretofore been practically unknown. Dr Hoel reports that he made a section of the Gulf Stream at 81 degrees north latitude and took soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters. These show the Gulf Stream very warm, and it could be traced as a surface current till beyond the 81st parallel. The warmth of the waters makes it probable that the favourable ice conditions will continue for some time.
Later a section was taken of the Gulf Stream off Bear Island and off the Isfjord, as well as a section of the cold current that comes down along the west coast of Spitbergen off the south cape.
In connection with Dr Hoel’s report, it is of interest to note the unusually warm summer in Arctic Norway and the observations of Capt. Martin Ingebrigtsen, who has sailed the eastern Arctic for 54 years past. He says that he first noted warmer conditions in 1918, that since that time it has steadily gotten warmer, and that today the Arctic of that region is not recognizable as the same Arctic region of 1868 to 1917.
Many old landmarks are so changed as to be unrecognizable. Where formerly great masses of ice were found, there are now often moraines, accumulations of earth and stones. At many points where glaciers formerly extended far into the sea they have entirely disappeared.
The change in the temperature, says Capt. Ingebrigtsen, has also brought about great change in the flora and fauna of the Arctic. This summer he sought for white fish in Spitsbergen waters. Formerly great shoals of them were found here. This year he saw none, although he visited all the old fishing grounds.
There were few seal in Spitzbergen waters this year, the catch being far under the average. This, however, did not surprise the captain. He pointed out that formerly the waters about Spitzbergen held an even summer temperature of about 3 degrees Celsius; this year recorded temperatures of about 15 degrees Celsius, and last year the ocean did not freeze over even on the north coast of Spitzbergen.
With the disappearance of white fish and seal has come other life in these waters. This year herring in great shoals were found along the west coast of Spitzbergen, all the way from the fry to the veritable great herring. Shoals of smelt were also met with.
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Posted by Gary Redman on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:03 am:
A nuclear power station would be achievable in 10 years if any of the political parties had the balls to schedule it.
I don't have an issue with it, but we are decreeing that coal reserves are running out. Well they aint!. It's just that we export 20 times more than we need ourselves at present and the government rtelies on those exports to pay it's bills. If we were to cap the export of coal we would have enough reserves of good steaming coal for generations.
We also need to start manufacturing ourselves instead of relying on imported items and this can only be done by ridding ourselves of the restrictive practices bought into affect by the likes of OH&A.
A bloke can't do a simple job anymore without wearing a fluro vest, hard hat, eye protection, ear plugs, and carrying out a risk assessment to satisfy the big insurance companies. lets get back to basic work practices and use some common sense instead of packing employees in cotton wool and then wondering why all the men these days are creampuffs.
We shouldn't be wasting money and resources on climate change policies, we should be actively learning to live with the situation that we have - one of these is continued drought in western NSW and Darling regions. Hello - Australia is surrounded by water - Why not build some enormous pipelines and a desalination plant and pump copious amounts of water to the areas where we need them and massively increase farming and cattle areas. There is a lot of crap about desalination plants. Well every cruise ship uses them and when I visited the Cyclades Islands in Greece every island had them as they have virtually no rainfall, and their power was generated by using large marine and locomotive diesel engines 24/7. We could do it far more economically than these smaller countries and the water is free.
Our governments have seen fit to not invest in any real form of practical infrastructure for many years.
This ETS that the Labour government is dead keen on laying on us is nothing more than another GST in sheeps clothing. I have never voted Liberal and Tony Abbott has never sat high on my list, but if he can put the skids on the ETS then he will get my vote.
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Posted by Miles Baker on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:30 am:
Great find Perry. What do the resident climate change fanatics think of that? The big con the paleoclimatologists sell is to make you believe the earth stood still until 1980. Just like they try to convince you that the drought we are in (which looks like ending shortly) is some kind of new thing in oz.
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Posted by Rob Rojo on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:08 am:
I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on the topic but from my understanding 97% of CO2 is produced naturally, out of the 3% produced by man Australia is responsible for 0.015% and the plan is to reduce our CO2 production by 20% with the ETC reducing our output to 0.012%. Is it really worth imposing billions of dollars in taxes to businesses to achieve such a small result which will no doubt be past on to the consumer? According to integral the government has already raised the cost of electricity by 20% as evident in our last bill but I was also advised of a further 20% increase in the next couple of months.
I guess that one way to reduce emissions, just charge to much for electricity so many won't be able to afford it!
I think climate change is a process that has been going since earths beginning and will never stop.
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Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:45 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Posted by Andrew Duaso on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:36 am:
how about this target 155L
here in vic 155L water per person per day
damn i got home last night and had to let the tap run for 20min just to reach my daily target
sorry unrelated to global whoring though
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Posted by Gary Redman on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:41 am:
The charges for electricity and other essential services are increasing in an attempt to get all of us to reduce our useage.
This is because our population is growing and putting a strain on our existing infrastructure, but federal and state governments have not done anything about improving supply of these services, so they jack the price up until we can't afford to use it and blame global warming as the reason, and cop another tax off us as well.
It's a win/win situation for any government cos it's not their fault and look at us "we are being kind to the environment" and they are copping more income than ever.
It's a no win situation for the rest of us as we will battle to be able to run air conditioners etc in one of the hottest countries on Earth despite us not being big polluters, and having abundant supplies of coal and water for the power stations.
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Posted by Perry Morgan on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:53 am:
Gary Redman wrote on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:41 am:This is because our population is growing and putting a strain on our existing infrastructure
Actually, they tell us we have a rapidly aging population as we are dying faster than we are breeding and hence the need for immigration. So we're in luck. There will be less strain on these services before long.
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Posted by Rob Rojo on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:58 am:
Slightly off topic but the free insulation scheme was a joke, most of the insulation came from china. It would have been more beneficial to the Australian economy to only give the grant to Australian made insulation only. At least the money would stay in the country.
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Posted by Perry Morgan on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:10 am:
Rob, like with all these govt schemes it puts a ton of people out of work too. A lot of our reputable customers who do insulation went under, or very nearly did when all these cowboys with a hilux and a trailer jumped on the bandwagon. There were flooding issues when they disturbed pipework, houses burning down where they put insulation over gimble lights that need air circulation and the list goes on.
Where will these insulation guys be when warranty work needs doing. I'll tell you were. The same place as all the guys who jumped on the watertank bandwagon went. Back into the woodwork/obscurity.
Now we are dealing with watertanks that are exploding due to poor build quality and people having 10,000 litres of water hit the back patio in 3 seconds.
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Posted by Rob Rojo on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:26 am:
Not to mention 4 residents that have already been killed from poor installation of the insulation.
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Posted by Ryan Posselt on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:54 am:
Wow having read this.... Some of you guys should not be allowed to vote. This will officially be my last post on soarercentral I'm sick of some very opinionated members trying to shove crap down other members throats. Enjoy your life try not to ruin mine by ignoring climate change.
Goodbye
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Posted by Gary Redman on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:00 pm:
And the government damn near ordered all the uniforms for the Army from China.
How hard is it to work out this out. E venif you spend an extra $1M on doing the whole job in Australia, the benefits are twofold - the company winning the contract pays it's employees and directors a salary and wage, these people then pay income tax and with what's left they go out and buy food and services and pay GST on these items as well.
All this money stayed basically in Australia and was used to buy other goods and services in Australia, and the government also got a bit of it back in GST and other taxes.
Pay a Chinese company millions of Australian dollars and the immediate benefit is zilch. How hard is that to work out.
What a bunch of morons we have running this country.
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Posted by Rob Rojo on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:22 pm:
Ryan Posselt wrote on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:54 am:Wow having read this.... Some of you guys should not be allowed to vote. This will officially be my last post on soarercentral I'm sick of some very opinionated members trying to shove crap down other members throats. Enjoy your life try not to ruin mine by ignoring climate change.
Goodbye
If your so concerned about climate change, why do you drive around a big V8?
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Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
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. Sorry, I was being ironic, implying you could omit 
