Friday, February 19, 2010 - 10:13 am, by: Gary Redman(Gary)
There can't be many of them left now after all these crashes and fires. Seems like the back end steps out with no warning and they just plough off into guardrails and trees. It would take a big movement of the front wheels to turn this quick, but only a small amount of movement of the rear wheels will effect a quick turn. Seems strange that no suspension component failures show up
Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:12 am, by: Ali Saeed(Ali)
looks like its been flipped. probably doing over a 100 anyway. also non stock wheels, which is dodgy as ••••• technically the back end shouldnt be stepping out in dry conditions due to 4wd and traction control, its not THAT powerful
Friday, February 19, 2010 - 09:03 pm, by: Boris Siljanoski(Z2tt)
And there has not been a definitive cause of this, the investigation found nothing of the car that crashed.
The only thing which comes in question about the build quality would be where it's mentioned that the Superlagerra which is a Gallardo I believe has a drive shaft that comes loose, but as for Murcielagos I don't know.
Surely by now it would have been found that Murci's have a common problem in something that comes loose or worn out causing immediate loss of control over the car.
Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 10:39 am, by: Matthew Sharpe(Madmatt)
Well, they are Italian built after all, if they didn't catch fire, rust, stop running for no apparent reason, leak and randomly shoot off the road they wouldn't be Italian sports cars. Its part of the ownership experience.
Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 01:10 pm, by: Paul Knox(Surreal)
68% of it's speed capabilities is about 228kmh. looks in good shape for having crashed at over 200k's. Seems to me that any little mistake at over 200kmh is amplified and could cause this kind of accident.
Simple crash investigation would show that if nothing is broken on the car , and the road conditions were not the cause then the driver is really the only thing left ???
could be a traction issue if 2 wheels were on a road marking or slippery section , sending power to the 2 other wheels , at 228K's , even a computer/electronically controlled stability system would struggle to overcome the laws of physics and keep the car straight. At 228k's you would have your foot into it and pumping close to 450kw into 2 wheels on the same side of the car , that would spit you out to the left or right pretty quick i reckon.
Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 05:02 pm, by: Mike Beck(Gold_40gt)
Matthew Sharpe wrote on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 10:39 am:
Well, they are Italian built after all, if they didn't catch fire, rust, stop running for no apparent reason, leak and randomly shoot off the road they wouldn't be Italian sports cars. Its part of the ownership experience
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:52 am, by: Boris Siljanoski(Z2tt)
Has this happened on your UZZ32? By outer tyre does this mean left or right? Would all depend if you were making a left or right turn which tyre is outer?
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:08 pm, by: Paul Knox(Surreal)
Cars also have their own traits when it comes to handling , early 911's are notorious for being unpredictable in the back end , because of the rear engine configuration. Mid engine cars have their own idiosynchrocies.
Like i said before push 450kw thru 2 wheels will cause a car to do weird things, now if thats thru 2 wheels on the left or right of the car not the rear or front , that will cause some serious spincter tightening.
Modern traction control , will send power to wheels with grip and limit power to wheels without. ESP, TRC is not infallable, I think the laws of physics still hold the upper hand.
I see lots of people driving beyond their own capabilities , because they think the car will save them.
Reminds me of the movie I robot, cars driving themselves and then turning off all the gadgetry , aids & controls , only to be only just in control and having near miss after near miss. Ironically thinking that he was a better driver even when the speeds were beyond normal human abilities.
Begs the question how many Lambo's drivers have had advanced driver training? Ferrari flys you to italy for training when purchasing new, now if you buy second hand , your on your own.
How many normal drivers can comfortably handle 450kw's.
I would think 200kw possibly alot less is about the limits of most peoples abilities , without further training.
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:45 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Boris Siljanoski wrote on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:52 am:
Has this happened on your UZZ32?
Yes this happens on all 32's as per above I think it is ESP related and as far as I am aware UZZ32's were the first car toyota made with ESP.
Yep outer wheel brake is applied regardless of turning left or right and the results are exactly the same as the driver pulling up the handbrake.
A few years ago 32 owners had talk about sudden out of control situation and near misses being a possibly related to •••• tyres or 4ws problem.
When I experienced this problem I did a few deliberate tests which revealed a repeatable bug I redid the tests on my other 32 fitted with different tyres and the results were the same.
The biggest problem with any TRC/ESP ABS system bug is that you are not in control. For the above situation you cannot do anything to correct the error.
If the driver makes a wrong input ie too much throttle or rips up the handbrake mid corner the driver can correct this error and regain control.
If there is a computer under control and the computer makes a correction which causes a loss of control or further loss of control you are powerless to resolve the error and regain control.
I can only assume that in later toyota models that this ESP bug was resolved but perhaps in the case of a Lambo with such small production numbers they don't have the R&D available to test every possible real world senario and find a possible computer bug.
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 01:19 pm, by: Paul Knox(Surreal)
I have a fair amount of racing experience on bikes , and was tempted to look into a Traction control system , but was told expect it to glitch and never be 100% reliable. I would also need to constantly revise the programming and basically have a specialist program the system, just like a top level team. The programming is only as good as the telemetry can be interpreted as well, so if your not reading the telemtry right , you have no chance of programming the system , and every track will also need is own program and settings. So a blanket setting for all road conditions is a compromise at best. ducati have a road bike now with the same traction control that Casey uses , with a 1-10 setting range , 1 being nothing well almost nothing, 10 being full. I've used the system and it's unerving , so I kind of know what Marco melandri , nicki hayden are going thru , any setting above 3 was far to intrusive , and 1,2,3 felt like i would be spat off at any stage. I was much faster on a bike with out any traction control. I'm sure many 100's of laps later i would be able to go faster with it on but it just felt unnerving. I'm reminded of the Dani Pedrosa incident , with his launch control flipping the bike, and the fact that Casey can handle the Ducati , but no other rider seems to be in tune with all the electronics.
for now I'll stick with using my right wrist as my traction control.
I drive the soarer, with my right foot as the primary traction control and the onboard system as a back up only, to be honest it's off most off the time
Any traction , esp system will encounter situations not programmed into the system and possibly do something weird.
Your probably right Damian , low production volumes could mean there are bugs in the system , and with a car that is driven to it's full potential maybe 5-10% of the time , I'm sure there's a bug or 2 in the Lambo's system.
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 07:58 pm, by: Raj Somarouthu(Edinlexusv8)
These are some interesting comments you are making folks regarding UZZ32 TRAC/ESP, never heard of them before. I was actually thinking of buying a UZZ32 but I am in two different minds now!
Miles Baker Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 09:00 pm, by: Miles Baker(Milesb)
Wow Paul.
What a dream car this is. What a "Great Drive".
None of my cars have ever suddenly speared off the road to the right or caught fire. But then I guess they are "land boats" with inferior driving experiences. Yeah, inferior if you like TO DIE.
Really built well too, huh.
What a bunch of horror stories those pages and the Top Gear clip are. Looks like at least one of their models bursts into flames regularly after smallish accidents or even no accident at all.. and the Murcielago randomly jams on one rear brake. That is a dead giveaway for a locked rear. Brake hard with a car that has too much rear bias, lock a rear wheel and it will spin you around so fast you can barely believe it, and it's about the only thing that can do that. They can't even seem to make a decent wheel.
To everyone else: this is a reference to Paul's attack on my opinion that I don't like Lamborghinis in the other thread, his abuse of me and of my cars. Lambo fanboy much Paul? Still think I'm stupid and arrogant just because I don't like them?
Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 09:23 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Raj Somarouthu wrote on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 07:58 pm:
These are some interesting comments you are making folks regarding UZZ32 TRAC/ESP, never heard of them before. I was actually thinking of buying a UZZ32 but I am in two different minds now!
Comments have been made before, most people will never see the bug. No one has crashed, it just causes the back end to step out unexpectedly under a not normal condition.
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:17 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
I had a chat with a mate of mine who is saving to buy a Lambo.
He tells me the Lambo awd system is from Audi and Lambo V10 so called fire engine is being used in the R8.
Given the production volumes of Audi if there was a problem with the AWD system I would think it would have come out years ago.
As to the UZZ32 ESP every ESP system I have driven (in local cars holden ford ect) has been crap and the 32 system even though 19 years old is just as good if not better. One of the local mags did a test on ESP systems with brand new cars, 9 out of 10 tests with professional drivers the car was more stable faster and quicker. Only 1 out of 10 tests could the car be pushed beyond normal bounds to go a very small margin faster.
IMO ESP is a waste of time and just adds to lack of driver control.
As to the bug/correction error it could present in all systems and might just be an odd situation where sensor input data requires a certain response which doesn't help gain control.
I noticed that when fitting high friction brake pads the bug and all TRC/ESP corrections were much worse.
I think with OEM brake pads most drivers would never incounter this situation.
Miles Baker Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:25 am, by: Miles Baker(Milesb)
There are quite a few pictures of burned out R8s circulating.. cars that weren't crashed. I believe the original test car at Nurburgring burned.
The incidence of crashes of Lamborghinis on straight roads, with single wheel lockups and very similar crashes seems very suspicious to me. Especially considering the small number of cars they even have on the road. Perhaps they are running the same AWD system, but Lamborghini may be fitting different brakes or just different pads without modifying the software?
All of this says to me that I am happy to continue driving my "land barges" with no software running them. ;)
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:33 am, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Miles Baker wrote on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:25 am:
There are quite a few pictures of burned out R8s circulating.. cars that weren't crashed. I believe the original test car at Nurburgring burned
Yep I have seen a couple of burnt R8's.
Really think it is strange to have such a problem, how hard is it to not have an engine catch on fire, its not like petrol powered internal combustion engines are a new thing.
Best way to go is a great chassi, great suspension heaps of power, drive it and enjoy it without any form of computer control.
Miles Baker Goo Roo Vic 66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 11:41 am, by: Miles Baker(Milesb)
I wouldn't have thought it was that hard. I've never had one catch fire, even with 40 year old hardware on them. I guess they cut corners and make mistakes when stuff is designed by such large teams these days. I was amazed when my mate's Cayenne popped its coolant hoses. Apparently a very common problem because they routed them too close to a hot surface or something. From the size of the bill, I gather the whole motor had to be pulled to replace the rubber hoses with hard lines. The more complex things get, the harder it seems to be to do the little things right. Just look at Toyota's problems with drive by wire. How could they overlook giving the driver an escape from a stuck throttle condition? That's been a consideration since long before I was born... but they forgot to include it in their design process. I guess maybe Audi forgot to check the motor wouldn't burst into flames. And maybe Lamborghini forgot to make sure the car wouldn't lock one rear wheel and fling the car into a guard rail.
I like the late 90s Vipers. No computers except EFI. Not even ABS. I didn't used to like that approach - I figured if you've got the technology use it. But these days I'm not as confident the technology works.. probably from seeing how it is developed.
Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 07:23 pm, by: Miles Baker(Milesb)
Ah, see that is what SHOULD have been possible. That is what the drivers tried...
BUT!
Neutral was locked out as the "smart" software decided foot flat + neutral = bad for engine. Many cars do this now. Push button start requires a lengthy held push to turn off.
The case I am talking about is the most well known. A police officer was driving a dealership loaner Lexus. The pedal stuck. His passenger actually had time to call 911 and detail what they were trying before they crashed and died. There was no way to put the car in neutral. There was no obvious or quick way to kill the engine. Lexus V8 + WOT + brakes = no brakes after a short time.
Toyota actually removed functionality that has been available to the driver for years. It would be reasonable for the average person to expect that functionality to still be there. Someone at Toyota is guilty of negligent homicide.
Peter Nitschke Junk Filterer South Australia UZZ30 UZZ31
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:44 pm, by: Peter Nitschke(Pen)
Nasty indeed. Couldn't flip back to first either I guess?
I really don't see the attraction of Push Start.
I have driven a car with it, and all it does from what I could see, is remove the decision about how long to hold the starter for, and probably stop you starting a running engine - though I didn't test that.
Any sort of kill switch would have to have some protection, eg a time delay.
Best idea might be to kill the throttle if the brake pressure exceeds 50%.
Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:56 pm, by: Damian Ware(Frozenpod)
Interesting hadn't herd that one.
I wouldn't buy any car with an auto that will not be manually controlled. That means going into gears it shouldn't including neutral. This is one reason I wouldn't buy a mazda put them in first get the the shift point under WOT and they change anyway just like they are in drive.
In many ways the new technology in modern cars are getting soo stupidly advanced you don't and cant drive the car other than pointing it in the right direction. Manufactures have also dumbed down the steering feel and response to make the cars more dosile and harder to control/nearly impossible to oversteer.
When things go wrong with the so called modern features/advanced computer control you are in serious trouble with no chance of resolving the fault before crashing.
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