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Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 375
Reg: 01-2009
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I know this is far off topic (haha) but I am finding it really hard to find a good dobermann breeder! I prefer to have papers and that they will transport the puppy interstate. Looking for a breeder in WA or NZ if possible.
Any suggestions guys? |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5205
Reg: 10-2005
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A friend of mine has had a few Dobermann's over the years. I don't often talk to him these days but I'll try and remember to ask him who he used to deal with. The two I knew were both lovely dogs - at least as long as they recognised you! Both were very well trained of course.
He got rid of them when he started with Children, he said even though he'd never had a problem himself he just could't stand to think what might happen with a child. |
Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 376
Reg: 01-2009
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Thanks Matthew.
They are wonderful dogs and make great companions and guard dogs. I'm going to living alone in my new house in the next few months, that's why I'm looking for one now! |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 66
Reg: 08-2006
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We used to own Doberpersons. Three in all. Fantastic dogs. Had no hesitation in having them around our young children either and never even looked like having an issue with that.
We stopped this in 1990 though when our last Dobie died.
The reason was twofold. Dobies had become very popular so low end breeders were producing big numbers and poor quality. Also, high end breeders had become very fashion conscious and were going for that very slimline, almost greyhound build which was winning at dog shows at the time. To each their own, but we didn't like it.
Thankfully both of those fads died away.
I've heard there has been a re-introduction of good American bloodlines in the last few years and the quality is back or at least coming back (and Anika, I believe you are right to be looking to NZ as I've heard the 'recovery' of the breed may be further advanced there).
I can't really help you with contacts as we lost touch with the breeders we knew long ago and they weren't in WA or NZ anyway.
Best of luck. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2249
Reg: 08-2005
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I don't mean to hijack or open a can of worms Peter, but it seems to me having large dogs around small children is irresponsible. I'm not discriminating on breed or whatever.. they're all animals. Animals have free will, moods etc. Thinking you can predict 100% of another conscious being's actions? Hmmm. I wouldn't have any large animal around small children. But hey, that's just me. |
Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 377
Reg: 01-2009
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Hijacker MILES!! lol
I grew up with german shepherds and not once have I been bitten or felt threatened by them in any way. Its really how you raise them and how well they're trained. There are some cases where even little dogs harm babies.
Whilst researching the breed (dobermanns) I have found that they are ideal for having as a family pet. There was an article that I read that proved that dobermanns were ranked no.1 for not/or having the least attacks on any member of the family and the good ol german shepherd was no. 3!
I guess really it all depends on the individual. There are people who have absolute trust in their pets and the other who aren't comfortable having big dogs around their children. I don't see it as being irresponsible. Being irresponsible is like having a dog who has attacked before and letting them roam free with children around. |
Dave Hart
Goo Roo
Waikato
UZZ32
Posts: 1515
Reg: 08-2005
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Peter & Anika, You're both very possibly correct in your assumptions but as the IRA said after the Brighton bombing, we only need to be successful once. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2250
Reg: 08-2005
|
I see what you're saying Anika but I still don't dig it. To me, the idea that an animal can be 100% predictable doesn't sit right. Everyone has their bad day. I have friends who let big dogs around kids and they say similar - we were fine as kids with dogs. I'm like yeah but that's enough to extrapolate?
Noone ever expects the Spanish inquisition. The horror stories you see on the news the owners always say but Rex was always so lovely with the kids... Well, Rex ain't a robot. When I was a kid the rule was you can hang out with any dog you like, as long as you can take it if it goes postal.
Hijack complete. |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31
Posts: 11351
Reg: 11-2004
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Even a small dog can rip a baby to bits though.
But isn't it a moot point in this thread as Anika will be living alone ie no kids? |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 67
Reg: 08-2006
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Miles Baker wrote on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 07:55 pm:it seems to me having large dogs around small children is irresponsible
Yeah Miles I know that is the thinking these days, and you absolutely have a point. Maybe times were different, and as Anika says it was at least partly a product of my and my wife's upbringing where being around large dogs was just how it was.
Even so I'm very glad we did it that way. They were fantastic pets and a great joy for all the children. I have an old photo somewhere of our daughter at two years old teething on a Dobermanns ear. I recall that at the time there was never a safety concern, only a hygiene one - but hey, two year olds put worse things in their mouths.
For balance I should acknowledge the other side of it. Our last Dobermann was put down. It had escaped and been hit by a car. Not bad damage, but a broken back leg which never came good. Pain set in and became chronic and worsened. It wasn't much fun for the dog and over time she became grumpier and grumpier. The decision point was where she growled quite menacingly at a family friend for no predictable reason that we could figure. Even though it was always going to come to that, the children were the deciding factor in having her put down sooner than later. So I guess I've made your point.
As to Dave's comment, well sorry but I don't buy it. People get killed crossing the road. Do we stop crossing the road? Do we stop our children crossing the road? Of course not, we educate and mitigate. Ditto for driving cars, etc. etc. and for me the same goes with dogs, big or not. |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 68
Reg: 08-2006
|
I have a different concern for someone in Anikas position.
Again I speak only from our experience, I'm not putting myself forward as any kind of expert, but I think one reason we had such a good experience with these dogs is that they were constantly with people they knew. They were indoor dogs, my wife was a stay at home Mum and the kids interacted with them for hours each day. All the Dobermanns I've known were very social - they like being 'part of the family'. Leaving them alone for more than a few hours, especially if there is only one of them could send them a bit bored/lonely/stir crazy - which could in turn lead to less desirable behaviour.
Just a cautionary thought. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 179
Reg: 10-2008
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I'm sure Anika knows the risks...Look at the owners not the breed. I have two very questionable breed dogs and good luck getting into my house/yard when I'm not home, but if you met them when I was home you would think they were the most docile dogs around. My dogs had obviously chased someone out of my yard a few weeks ago because when I arrived home they were both asleep by the side gate which was open. They did not even venture out of the yard when I arrived home as they know they are not supposed to be out of the yard. If you train them right you will have no issues. It's all about responsible ownership if you don't train your dogs properly don't leave them around kids. |
Aiden Cheese
TryHard
QLD
Soarer jzz30
Posts: 345
Reg: 09-2009
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James Wilson wrote on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 12:42 pm:.Look at the owners not the breed
Bad advice. You need both breeding backgrounds and owners personalities. They aren't equally weighted but no matter how good the owner, the dog will inherit traits from its forefathers. A good owner will train them out of that dog, but they will still be passed down.
There are risks of big dogs, but small dogs can be savage depending on the breed. I know for whatever reason our small bichon frise
 (image for placeholder purposes only, not my actual dog)
hates really small children. Or tries to play with them like they would a puppy. OR something. Either way i leave it locked up when friends bring their newborn children or toddlers around. Its just common sense.
Dogs act different with their owners (who are easily able to be dominant to them) than they can be to strangers (hence a lot bark and bite strangers who jump the fence) and children (who can't assert themselves as dominant to the pets).
Again like most people here i'm not an expert. But along with calculated risks (of selecting the right dog type, the right breed, from the right breeder) you will still get the reward of having a pet. I grew up with a miniture shelty/collie cross
 image for demonstration purposes only again, that dog died a long time ago 
and it really was a good influence on our upbringing. My parents hawked over that dog while it was near us children, and then even silently from a distance to make sure it never was even remotely (even when teased punch bullied or tried to be ridden) aggressive.
Of course it wasn't a big dog, but it wasn't as small as this •••••• bichon. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2254
Reg: 08-2005
|
James I feel even if you do train them properly, I wouldn't leave large dogs around little kids. If you try and tell me you can predict 100% that it could never ever happen, you're wrong. Animals have brains not software.
Having said that, when I was a little kid we had a beagle. Once I was big enough that it couldn't seriously mess me up, off we went. And yeah, I annoyed it a bunch of times and it bit me a bunch of times. But I doubt it could've killed me if it tried. I just see too many people letting kids run around with dogs that are the same height as them. Seems crazy. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 180
Reg: 10-2008
|
100% champ...come see my dogs. I have friends who breed and train sheep dogs and unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree. Go see how sheep dogs work before you say dogs can't be trained. My staff cross ridgeback was from the RSPCA he came from a bad home and was a mess when we got him...now he is a different dog. I guess at the end of the day they are my dogs and my experiences. I trust my dogs 105% and so do my friends. I'd be more than happy to show you if your ever in town. I am just plain sick and tired of this crap people throw around about "bad breeds" it's a load of s$$t! If you'r dog is disobedient I hate to break it to you but ITS YOUR OWN FAULT! |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 181
Reg: 10-2008
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Anika we used to have a shepherd and I loved him but we had to have him put down...he got arthrits real bad I will see if any one I know has any dobies for you. I do know where there are some really nice Pure breed English staffys too. |
Peter Beer
Tinkerer
Queensland
'92 TT, '95 V8 Ltd
Posts: 69
Reg: 08-2006
|
Miles, just for fun may I say.....
I can't predict 100% what another driver will do either, and they could kill me easily. They too have brains not software and sometimes they even have faulty hardware just to add to the excitement, but that still won't keep me from driving on the same road as them. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 182
Reg: 10-2008
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You could come look at our staffy he is from the same family.
He is the dark brindle one. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2256
Reg: 08-2005
|
James,
I'm not saying anything about bad breeds etc. All I am saying is you cannot predict 100% of what will ever be going through a dog's head. If you think you can then yes, we will have to "agree to disagree". It's similar to mates who've had wives/girlfriends that they've trusted "100%". Or best mates that they'd trust "100%". And then the best mate shags the wife.
Peter,
There is a big difference between the two situations. That's a straw man fallacy. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 183
Reg: 10-2008
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Miles I am a pretty reasonable bloke and I understand what your saying. But I do trust my dogs 100%, you don't have too but you won't see me on the news coz my dogs have run havoc and killed someone. They have been trained properly just like all the other dogs I have had. I grew up on a farm too so I think this may be why I have a different attitude on dogs. I have seen dogs put down for killing livestock so I can see you'r point. They can be unpredictable sometimes and caution should be used, but with correct training you can bring the risk level to a minimum. |
Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 378
Reg: 01-2009
|
James - beautiful dogs you got! It would be great if I could find a good breeder in Adelaide! But the thing is I want papers as well because I want the assurance that my dog will be a pure breed.
Its a shame about your shepherd . I actually had one rotti a few years back, grew up with her but with rotti's, you get alot of medical issues. She also had arthritis but in the end cancer got the better of her *boo hoo* |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 184
Reg: 10-2008
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There are a few in breeders in Adelaide for dobies they should all give papers if requested. Our dark brindle staff has papers and we are planning for some pups with another friends staffy. Both dogs will be pure breds with papers. Good luck any way finding pups and if you would like any help finding breeders just see your local RSPCA they are in regular contact with good breeders  |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
V8 Limited
Posts: 1824
Reg: 09-2007
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id leave these two around my kids. and they both have pedigree papers
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Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
V8 Limited
Posts: 1825
Reg: 09-2007
|
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Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2257
Reg: 08-2005
|
James Wilson wrote on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 06:18 pm:They can be unpredictable sometimes and caution should be used, but with correct training you can bring the risk level to a minimum
That's my point. A minimum is not 0%. Unpredictable sometimes means not 100%. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 185
Reg: 10-2008
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Minimum with my dogs means I am 100% confident they will not harm any one as long as they are not trying to get in my house/yard whilst I'm not home.
Simple.
Don't belive me - come meet them. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 186
Reg: 10-2008
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Dogs will behave correctly if trained properly. Tell me the last time a blind man was attacked by it's guide dog? |
Paul Knox
TryHard
QLD
uzz31 manual
Posts: 112
Reg: 08-2009
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Dogs are capable of many things and being trained to do amazing things.
You can't discount breeds, as it is a simple fact that some breeds are capable of killing whereas others are just to small to inflict the same kind of damage.
A doberman is far more capable of killing as opposed to a chihaua.
some breeds are very new and still have wild instincts that come from thousands of years of breeding in the wild.
I had a malamute that had to go because around me no problem around kids who knows ??? thats the point, are you willing to risk your kids life.
Malamute's have only maybe 200yrs of breeding to distinguish them from Wolves.
I have a border colly , who now at 13 will not tolerate little kids , when she was younger yes , but not now.
Labradors have a much longer history of being bred for human contact.
My next door neighbour imported 2 Anatolian shepards from Africa , they are bred to kill lions , About the size of a Great Dane, but more muscular and larger head, do you think they would be good around kids ???
Different breeds need different rules.
no dog is 100% predictable and safe, for kids.
Adults can defend themselves to some degree, but kids no.
I would leave a labby , golden retreiver or foxy with kids , but not a Doberman , pitbull , ridgeback , malamute , husky.
Some breeds are dangerous and if you ignore their natural traits you are only doing your kids a great disservice. |
James Wilson
TryHard
sa
TT
Posts: 187
Reg: 10-2008
|
I would leave a labby , golden retreiver or foxy with kids
Labs are just as capable?? I know a lab that the owner has literally no control over....
Different breeds need different rules.
I don't agree this should be :
Different dogs need different rules.
If every one went by your rules we would all have golden retrievers?
I have a pen that the dogs stay in if people who are coming around have really young kids - or people they have not met yet - as a precaution. My mates 5yo son runs around and plays with our dogs every time he comes around, some dogs believe it or not are not killers. Just because you read something in the paper does not make it accurate. Staffy's, dobies, ridgebacks, they are all eager to please. This is why people use them as fighting dogs, they are easy to train. If they are trained correctly they will be just as safe as your average retriever.
I picked up an abused dog from the RSPCA his name is tom he is the lighter brindle dog pictured above. He had a massive cut on the back of his neck (about 20cm long) and had been beaten quite badly by who ever bred him. He had to have some pretty serious 1 on 1 training but he is now as safe as any lab. OH MY GOD ITS A MIRACLE....
It's responsible dog ownership and training. |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
Relaxed
IS300
Posts: 4849
Reg: 07-2005
|
Anika Le wrote on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 10:54 pm:Whilst researching the breed (dobermanns) I have found that they are ideal for having as a family pet. There was an article that I read that proved that dobermanns were ranked no.1 for not/or having the least attacks on any member of the family and the good ol german shepherd was no. 3!
Interesting. Risk includes impact and personally I would rather be mauled by a chihuahua, if I ever let one of them get close enough.
On the other hand, this pet resource appears to have a different ranking, with German Shepherds being third most dangerous rather than third safest, and dobermans on the list as well. |
Rob Rojo
Goo Roo
NSW
TT
Posts: 3370
Reg: 12-2007
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My family & I have owned a large mix of dogs including a 120kg English Bull Mastiff, A Pitbull, Doberman, German shepard, Alaskan Malamute and foxys.
The only one that even came close to biting anyone was one of the foxys.
If you have children don't leave them unattended around any dogs and make sure they know how to play with them safely. |
Anika Le
TryHard
SA
TT 1JZ-GTE
Posts: 379
Reg: 01-2009
|
Interesting read David but see what it says:
"Dobermans are great guard dogs for their alertness, intelligence and loyalty. They can be aggressive dogs when provoked. The typical pet Doberman attacks only if it believes that it, its property, or its family are in danger."
The more so for me to get one!  |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5225
Reg: 10-2005
|
No doubt about it, they are fantastic guard dogs. |
Paul Knox
TryHard
QLD
uzz31 manual
Posts: 113
Reg: 08-2009
|
I think the underlying thing is KIDS !
Adults to some extent can protect themselves.
Kids are often smaller than than the dog and usually weigh alot less.
If the roles were reversed would you feel as dominant over your Dog if it weighed 180kg and stood 6ft on all fours.
Somehow I think the dog would be thinking i can take this guy.
I'm sure Roy or Sigfried, felt he could trust his White tiger implicitly too.
No animal is 100% predictable.
My point about labby's or Golden Retrievers is , they have have a much calmer temperment, and if provoked I would think would snap and bite , but not try to kill as with other breeds.
A foxy might break the skin, but I don't think it could rip muscle from the bone, like a Malamute or German shepard.
I tell kids that "careful she bites" with my Border colly, but i also know that all she does , give a little snap and it's all over , because it's in her breeding , she has years of breeding to snap at the sheep , not maul them to death.
So kids of around 7,8,9. should be ok , but a 2 year old doesn't get put in that situation.
It's just common sense.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing , but it won't stop a dog from be unpredictable and hurting a kid.
No dog is 100% safe.
And sure there are plenty of stories about dogs protecting kids and owners from harm, but again no dog is 100% reliable in either situation.
I think Anika , a doberman should be a good choice for you , but i think what we are trying to say is , if the dog is yours and not around kids alot , then be alert to the danger that it may behave unpredictably around kids.
And being a doberman , has the potential to be very dangerous compared to a smaller or calmer breed.
I have cats as well that run and hide when they hear kids come in the house , yet they have never been exposed to kids, so what is it that provokes animals when kids are around and can trigger a fear response - fight or flight. ????
it's probably the noise.
You can't deny it , they either love kids or hate kids (dogs & cats).
Yes different dogs need different rules , but then you are ingoring the Traits of the breed when you say you don't believe in different rules for different breeds.
You would not treat a 5kg foxy the same as a 100kg malamute, if you did you are a fool.! |
David Vaughan
Goo Roo
Relaxed
IS300
Posts: 4850
Reg: 07-2005
|
I am not at all surprised, Rob. The majority of dogs do not attack kids or it might be a bit more prominent in the newspapers. That does not make them safe, especially at those sizes.
Anika, I did read that part in the first place and it sounds good for your purposes. What triggers a dog's "protect" instinct though is not as predictable as we might wish, which is precisely why owners are amazed when their previously sweet dog mauls or kills someone. Their amazement did not make the dog safe. |
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