| Author |
Message |
David Vaughan
DieHard
ACT
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 991
Reg: 07-2005
|
...just like an advertisement for weight loss from a pill.
BTW Daniel, would you mind reading Karl Popper, Giorgio de Santillana or any number of current philosophers of science before you use the word "theory" again? You appear to believe that it means conjecture or speculation, possibly provable. It means none of those although those words may be substituted in your sentences without altering their apparent meaning. |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 22
Reg: 09-2005
|
I have come across some of Karl's works before, and fully aware of what theory means. I think you misunderstood what i meant when i said "unproven theories". I refer to theories, such as the "pod theory", for 911, or ones such as lasers brought down the towers, such and such, their authors referring to their ideas as theories, they use logic (as they see it), with evidence (again, as they see it) to reach these wild conclusions. Speculation or conjecture rarely make up any of it, however, loose logic or over analysing certain "oddities" leads them to these conclusions...
i didnt word it very well, but my reasoning behind saying unproven is that, while they may appear to be proven theories to those who came to these conclusions, they are unproven in the face of real scientific analysis. |
David Vaughan
DieHard
ACT
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 995
Reg: 07-2005
|
No, they are not theories. They are propositions for which the authors attempt to assemble evidence or plausible models. They have not even the status of hypotheses let alone theories.
You may develop a model, conjecture, speculation or proposition. You test this based on hypotheses about consequences and if these stand up then an explanatory theory may be developed. From this, further hypotheses may be proposed to falsify, validate or extend the new theory. The common intellectual error seems to be that a theory is the first flight of imagination.
Sorry about the arcana everyone but this is like the intelligent design debate, another fine example of where deliberate confusion of terminology is used in an attempt to add undeserved status to someone's faith-based views. If it is understood that there is no coherent scientific model in either that case or this then the position becomes clearer.
Think I had better shut up for a while. Trouble is, my Soarer is driving so beautifully I have nothing much to say about it  Roll on Summernats and my first ever time going near it. |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 23
Reg: 09-2005
|
Problem is, coherent scientific models as you say, dont always face up to scientific scrutiny forever either, so one could argue their validity occasionally as well.
Either way, in the case of everything here, its irrelevant and only playing semantics.
I think the reason that its become common to loosely apply the word theory onto anything that is configured as a coherent, logical procession of hypothesys, without facing upto scientific testing, (not to be confused with using scientific models or principles for coming to conclusions) is for ease of use in the english language. |
David Vaughan
DieHard
ACT
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 998
Reg: 07-2005
|
Translation: people misuse words, valuing impressions over meaning.
Sounds pretty much what I was saying but it does not sanctify their illogic. |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 24
Reg: 09-2005
|
yes which is why i said its only playing semantics. Its really doesnt matter either way, as long as the principles are scientifically sound, etc.
The reason that alot of 911 stuff is slow getting off the ground in the scientific communtity is because, for 1, alot dont even know about any of this yet. 2, alot of people have pre-concieved notions that all conspiracy THEORIES are BS, without even bothering to look at anything in depth, they write it off automatically. And 3, there is great disincentive to do or say anything at all. This is i feel alot of the problem in the maintstream media as well, they just cant publish anything too controversial, because there will be serious consequences. As has been seen in the past 5 yrs.... Not to mention that alot of the US media is virtually government controlled state media.
Fortunately, scientists and intellectuals are slowly looking at the information and realising, hey, what the govt. is saying happened, is physically impossible, and from the information we have, this is what we can consider the most likely occurance of events.
There are many questions as well, where its very open ended...
Theres also alot of less physically provable events too. ie.. why did the secret service not whip the president out of the school that day, if they had no prior knowledge of the attacks, the logical assumption is that they would have thought it was possible for an attack on the school, as it was public knowledge where he was...
Its not evidence obviously, but it does raise serious doubts, when coupled with the hundreds of other events that occured, or did not occur on that day, and even before, and after that day.... |
David Vaughan
DieHard
ACT
Soarer GT-L (4.0 V8) Lexus is300 (3.0 VVT-i 6)
Posts: 1000
Reg: 07-2005
|
EDIT: I have taken down the former content of this post because I wish neither to provoke nor persist in this nonsense. |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 25
Reg: 09-2005
|
thus my point 2...
edit: for the record, i dont care to argue an unwinnable arguement either, all i can hope is that you would think about it, and actually look at what is being said on its own merits. in time, maybe youll realise.
ps, i dont completely disagree with what you are saying with regards to theory, etc.. but in the context of certain things, such as this, its rather irrelevant, the scientific principles stand on their own. Put it simply, no matter how you look at it, physics is physics... the information is out there for people to disprove, and honestly, i kinda hope they do... but it hasnt happened yet... |
Matthew Sharpe
TryHard
North Island
3.0 GT
Posts: 220
Reg: 10-2005
|
And the moon landing was a fake, and Oswald didn't kill JFK and yadda yadda yadda xfiles yadda...  |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
1991 UZZ30 GT4.0 V8
Posts: 1865
Reg: 05-2005
|
"I was the 2nd. gunman on the grassy knoll"  |
Ollie Ernst
TryHard
ACT
Soarer V8 Limited
Posts: 319
Reg: 07-2005
|
Yes Don, but knowing you, you would have been shattered on Bourbon and slept through the whole thing. :-) |
Matthew Sharpe
TryHard
North Island
3.0 GT
Posts: 221
Reg: 10-2005
|
Wow, you were a good shot for such a young lad! |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
1991 UZZ30 GT4.0 V8
Posts: 1866
Reg: 05-2005
|
Ollie: You are correct 
Matthew: I was BORN with a weapon in my hands! (Shut up Morgs!) |
Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8
Posts: 2771
Reg: 11-2004
|
Ever taken your hand off it since then Don? |
Mike Beck
TryHard
New Zeland
no soarer... v8 has been sold..
Posts: 197
Reg: 11-2005
|
Since this topics touching on the World Trade centre. Heres the new actual design. Its quite fantastic....
Its 540 metres to the top of the 'Freedom Towers'antenna, Previous WTC was 417m + the antenna.... |
Simon Triantafillou
TryHard
NSW
Soarer Turbo
Posts: 340
Reg: 07-2005
|
Plans for the height are apparently still not finalised. Yes, the 540 metre height reflects their desire to have it 1776 feet high (Independence date or whatever), but the new building in Dubai is apparently going to dwarf this tower, and the US have it stuck in their mind that they need the biggest in the world, so are leaving some leeway to change the final height after the one in Dubai is completed next year. |
Mike Beck
TryHard
New Zeland
no soarer... v8 has been sold..
Posts: 198
Reg: 11-2005
|
Meh any tower out of western countries are a bit dull. All those ones in Asia may be really tall but they dont have the impact like the Empire State Building has or the old WTC complex, they stand for Western civilisation and America.... yeah.. Plus they look no where nice as US buildings |
Perry Morgan
DieHard
Qld
UZZ32 ( V8 )
Posts: 613
Reg: 07-2005
|
Those antenna they wack on the tops are a piss weak grab for extra height. They do have some function but mostly to add to the height the lame ass way. |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
1991 UZZ30 GT4.0 V8
Posts: 1867
Reg: 05-2005
|
Perry Morgan wrote on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 01:19 pm:lame ass
Is that like a Limping Donkey?  |
Matthew Sharpe
TryHard
North Island
3.0 GT
Posts: 228
Reg: 10-2005
|
Hmm, talking about phallic inuendo - how silly is it for countries to still be "mine's bigger than yours"ing? |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 26
Reg: 09-2005
|
Matthew Sharpe wrote on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 07:36 am:And the moon landing was a fake, and Oswald didn't kill JFK and yadda yadda yadda xfiles yadda...
lol, yet you havent even delved into any of them? not many have, which is alot of the problem, people are happy to write off what people are saying, even if some of those people were there at the time and place of the disaster, etc..
Its partially like getting a book or a movie, and nearly everyone says its crap, even though they havent read or watched it, but theres a few that have read/watched it, and say its good. But you just go with the majority and write it off as crap, without even bothering to read/watch it.
Not saying i believe the moon landing is fake, that argument is very weak, but JFK... well thats something else...
As ive said, dont be a sheep and write something off without even bothering to investigate...
oh, and the new tower design fits well into the city backdrop i think. |
Perry Morgan
DieHard
Qld
UZZ32 ( V8 )
Posts: 615
Reg: 07-2005
|
It's not like a limping DONkey at all you fool. |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
1991 UZZ30 GT4.0 V8
Posts: 1869
Reg: 05-2005
|
Oops!......my bad  |
Daniel Rees
Tinkerer
VIC
V8
Posts: 27
Reg: 09-2005
|
not 911 or anything related, but thought id post this, msnbc poll on whether Bush should be impeached.... theres alot of distrust out there. Not enough though...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904#survey |
Steve Nolan
TryHard
NSW
SC400 Ltd (31)
Posts: 394
Reg: 07-2005
|
what did all this rubbish have to do with the madness in Sydney?
Did someone crash a plane into the beach ?
 |
Peter Nitschke
JunkFilterer
South Australia
GT4.0 V8
Posts: 2787
Reg: 11-2004
|
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Morgan Cross
Goo Roo
Victoria
Soarer TT
Posts: 1020
Reg: 07-2005
|
Don Bagnall wrote on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:12 am:Matthew: I was BORN with a weapon in my hands! (Shut up Morgs!)
Are you referring to your tool mister? |
Don Bagnall
Moderator
New Zealand
1991 UZZ30 GT4.0 V8
Posts: 1933
Reg: 05-2005
|
HeHe! |
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