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Message |
James Livas
Tinkerer
NSW
GT-TL
Posts: 81
Reg: 03-2009
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http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/175152/toyota-to-pay-record-us-fine-but-not-off-the-hook-yet
Have they really let it slip lately? Or is it just a string of bad luck? Love to hear your thoughts! |
Peter Burrett
DieHard
ACT
'97 2.5 VVTi ST, '04 IS200, '94 3 ltr Soarer
Posts: 694
Reg: 07-2005
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From the statements made by their CEO to the US government, they (Mr T) think they've lost it. But they are not alone.....keep reading the motoring press |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5482
Reg: 10-2005
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What happened was horrible, but Toyota got royally ass-kicked by the US government and the international press. Perhaps rightly so, but US manufacturers have done far, far worse and gotten away far more lightly. Double standards I fear, especially now the US government is now basically a direct competitor to Toyota through its bail out deals for the big 3. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2402
Reg: 08-2005
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They didn't give Ford any money. Chrysler didn't get a lot either I don't think? But can't really remember.
And can you give examples of what US auto makers did worse and got away with? |
Tim Ross
Goo Roo
Qld
1J + GT35-82R
Posts: 1833
Reg: 09-2007
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The US are loving it because its a perfectly timed opportunity to shift the focus off their failed industry and instead drag someone else through the mud. |
Jeff Bedsor
DieHard
QLD
TT
Posts: 814
Reg: 10-2006
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Miles - only 17.4 billion, not a lot if you say it quickly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008%E2%80%932010In September, 2008 the Big Three asked for $50 billion to pay for health care expenses and avoid bankruptcy and ensuing layoffs, and Congress worked out a 25$ billion loan.[96] By December, President Bush had agreed to an emergency bailout of $17.4 billion to be distributed by the next administration in January and February.[97] In early 2009, the prospect of avoiding bankruptcy by General Motors and Chrysler continued to wane as new financial information about the scale of the 2008 losses came in. Ultimately, poor management and business practices forced Chrysler and General Motors into bankruptcy. Chrysler filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on May 1, 2009 [98] followed by General Motors a month later.[ |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2403
Reg: 08-2005
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Remember also that the Australian government bails out Ford and Holden *every year*. And 17 billion isn't much when you consider the contribution GM and Chrysler usually make to the US economy. Ford and Holden here? They make basically no contribution to Australia. Toyota and Mitsubishi have also received Aus Gov handouts and bailouts.
The Japanese government is also known for subsidising its auto makers, especially Toyota. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2140
Reg: 09-2007
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i dont see this as targeting toyota. they recalled 4 million cars..they deserve to get fined/humiliated/dragged through the mud. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 33
Reg: 03-2010
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I agree, they didn't just make a mistake, they tried to sweep it under the rug, and people died as a result. they got the book thrown, and quite rightly too. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 34
Reg: 03-2010
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oh and guys, it is million, not billion.
I would say the damage to their image will cost them far more in the long run |
Michael James
TryHard
Queensland
V8 UZZ31 Limited
Posts: 232
Reg: 07-2005
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Jeff Bedsor :-
That wiki article is seriously out of date.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100421/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_loans
GM still owes $45.3 billion to the U.S. and $8.1 billion to Canada, money it received in exchange for large stakes in the company. The U.S. government now owns 61 percent of the company and Canada owns roughly 12 percent. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2404
Reg: 08-2005
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Damn right, Ali and Lucas. You screw up, you get what you get.
We can't go playing favourites and saying Toyota didn't deserve it and the US Govt are being nasty. Just because of whatever preferences and prejudices some of the posters above have for or against certain nationalitied companies does not excuse the fact. Toyota fcked up. Big scale.
Anyway, the US makers have had their asses handed to them in the past. Pinto. Explorer. There have been others. At least the US Gov does SOMETHING. You think the Aus Gov would do anything?? Yeah right. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2145
Reg: 09-2007
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thats exactly right Miles. Ford got done on the Explorer thing quite good, as they rightly should have. toyota makes millions of cars and the life of millions of people are in their hands, they cant be excused for fking up. they are lucky the fine is capped at 16.4million, or they might have got done for even more. |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5484
Reg: 10-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 09:16 am:And can you give examples of what US auto makers did worse and got away with?
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 11:18 pm:Anyway, the US makers have had their asses handed to them in the past. Pinto. Explorer.
You said it! Sure the government sorted them out, but the international press all but ignored it. Nobody other than car enthusiasts would know anything about the Pinto (ok, a long time ago) or Explorer problems here in NZ, but people are making jokes on the radio about Toyota every day.
And I agree, Toyota deserve it, and they deserve whatever they end up paying out to all the people who will sue, and more besides as people died - just saying that there does appear to be some level of tall poppy syndrome going on.
Mitsubishi/Fuso went thru the same thing in the 90's and hardly anybody heard a thing about it in that case in Japan, and it did nearly destroy their domestic sales, but again, hardly any international coverage at all. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2405
Reg: 08-2005
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Dude. Who cares about the international press or jokes in new zealand? Ford got it for the pinto for decades where it counts. GM for the corvair. Ford again for the Exploder. Sheesh. They both got boned in the market that counts.
Jokes in NZ. International press. You're kidding right? That's your definition of ford getting off lightly? They got fined in the US courts and their reputation was shattered for 20+ years. But they got off lightly because noone in NZ cared. You know there are even some reports that the Pinto, retrospectively, didn't actually kill as many people as its competitors. Ford may have gotten screwed for no reason. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 35
Reg: 03-2010
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it is interesting that the DOT on america said they would have fined toyota $6,000 per car recalled if they could, and they are getting class actions taken against them for the drop in resale value in their cars. I think they will bounce back fairly quickly though, as up until now they have had a shining reputation |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1478
Reg: 10-2005
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Exactly what is wrong with the car? |
Aaron Mead
Goo Roo
NT
Celsior 1UZ-FE Mines, JZZ30 1.5JZ-GTE To4z
Posts: 2872
Reg: 03-2006
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16.4m isnt a lot of money when you consider the profits, even after the recalls. Thats getting off on a good behaviour bond.
If the dragging through the mud was so bad here, they wouldnt be the best selling car in Oz. As for what happens internationally, who cares?
As for our govt bailing outlocal car insudtry, the tax breaks that they get are massive.
BA 4.0 6 cyl engine- govt inupts totalled about $500M to 'enhance' a 1950's iron block so it would still be in use for another 15 years, and that looks about on the money as falcons are heading towards smaller donks to replace the family six..... |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5490
Reg: 10-2005
|
It'll be the civil suits that get them - it'll end up being hundreds of millions at the very least I would think. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2411
Reg: 08-2005
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Agreed. The government action is just to help the civil suits be no brainers for the juries. |
Costa Tsimiklis
DieHard
Victoria
386.2 rwkw Soon T51R or GT4094 
Posts: 530
Reg: 07-2008
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The pivot pin has a bronze bushing lining a steel pin, so a mechanical failure is caused when there is excessive wear or the correct circumstances. The concern of late is premature wear due to poor material standards, tolerances, contamination or temperature differentials. The wiring and software is OK - its the mechanicals that are failing. It is bad for Toyota, but they do not make the pedal as far as I know - they have a subcontractor who makes them. Perhaps they lied or did not follow Toyota's TQM strategy when making these parts and thus, Toyota gets the tarnished brand and they will have to litigate the manufacture.
Toyota is still a family business, run by Mr. Toyoda (with a D). He would be very upset that this has happened. Thew hole TQM model is meant to prevent situations like this and fix these at the point of manufacture. Unfortunately I think the subcontractor, CTS, screwed Toyota on this and this kind of failure would not have gone through the Toyota assembly line if they made it themselves. I have done a lot of research on Toyota in both my Engineering and Business Degrees and this is very very unusual for Toyota to have such a catastrophic failure of fail safes and systems.
Sidebar - some soarer oem parts have TOYODA instead of Toyota  |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2425
Reg: 08-2005
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The software is bad. A capable software engineer anticipates failure of one or multiple inputs and outputs and designs his product to still be workable. Regardless of whether the pedal is designed well or not, it will at some stage fail in some cases. They also removed safeguards which drivers have been taught for years - if all else fails throw it down a gear or into neutral. I have had pedals in my cars that are designed a hell of a lot worse and have stuck flat on me and I've known what to do and escaped with my life. Think rod linkage all the way to the throttle plate. Always going to be a stuck pedal waiting to happen and that's why the driver's ed handbook (at least it used to) has the instruction about putting the car in neutral or turning it off.
Their software problems are IMHO disgusting and downright criminally negligent. They are obviously not employing the right people and managing whomever they are employing very poorly. Toyota deserve everything they get and then some. Their middle and upper management in their design/testing/safety teams should be charged with negligent homicide. Any reasonably qualified engineer is taught this stuff. It is our duty to do what we are paid to do - think ahead and build machines that work and don't kill people. Building just to ideal spec is not good enough. The guys who designed didn't think ahead. The guys who managed them didn't ask them if they thought ahead. Noone checked. It's not that hard and it is reasonable to assume a manufacturer took steps to design a product with safety features that have existed in the field for decades. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2237
Reg: 09-2007
|
+1 for Miles. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1491
Reg: 10-2005
|
Ok so a mechanical failure is the root of the throttle being stuck WOT. But what causes the car to crash.
Why can the driver not shut down the engine or select neutral.
There was an incident a month or so back where a Ford was stuck WOT on FWY to Frankston. Driver was unable to stop the car, called 000 and police cleared the road, the driver cooked the brakes in an attempt to stop, brakes were allowed to cool and with a second attempt the car was brought to almost a complete stop at which point the engine stalled.
So not only Toyota are having this problem but why cannot the simplest driver response shutting down the engine and selecting neutral or even just selecting neutral occur. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2427
Reg: 08-2005
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Because the people in charge of the design of these electronic systems are not thoughtful. In the whole world there are about 7 thoughtful people left in electronics and software.
Most places, the whole joint hangs on that one "go to" guy who goes above and beyond and makes the product good. Not all the process and management and bullsh!t that that one guy usually has to fight to put out a decent product. Corporate culture doesn't work. And having been in it in electronics and software, I don't trust my life to electronics and software. Hence I drive nothing built after 1990 unless it was built by me. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1492
Reg: 10-2005
|
Yes correct design and foresight into potential failure mechanisms is a problem.
Has it been confirmed though that the engine cannot be shut off whilst driving and or neutral selected.
I am aware of other manufactures stopping people from selecting neutral above and certain speed and without the brake being depressed but I have not seen this in a Toyota.
The cars that had this I believe also had a manual override ie red button for moving out of park with the car turned off or into neutral. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2428
Reg: 08-2005
|
Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 12:28 pm:Has it been confirmed though that the engine cannot be shut off whilst driving and or neutral selected.
Yes. On the phone to the cop who was driving the Lexus, shortly before the multiple fatality accident.
Technically the push button start Lexus can be shut down but it involves holding the button in for an extended period. Not exactly a smart solution. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1493
Reg: 10-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:08 pm:Yes. On the phone to the cop who was driving the Lexus, shortly before the multiple fatality accident.
I don't buy that there are plenty of people which have no clue how there cars work, or what to do when things go wrong.
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:08 pm:Technically the push button start Lexus can be shut down but it involves holding the button in for an extended period. Not exactly a smart solution.
How long does the button have to be depressed as surely applying the brakes and pushing the start stop button for a second or so would be sufficent in 99% of cases?
Do you or anyone else know if you can manually select neutral? |
Boris Siljanoski
DieHard
Western Australia
Soarer GZ20 TT
Posts: 896
Reg: 11-2007
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Problem is at the time of panic do some people use their common sense or just go blank? |
Peter Nitschke
Junk Filterer
South Australia
UZZ30 UZZ31
Posts: 11578
Reg: 11-2004
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What makes it even more ridiculous, is that cruise control has had an automatic cancel if the brakes are pushed probably since close to it's first inception.
It's criminally stupid to not have the same feature on an electronic throttle system.
But this is a time when people think it's cool to do low contrast printing and web pages, white writing on light grey background etc, looks cute, but isn't very readable. But like lemmings, they are all doing it now.
Thinking something through seems to be a lost art. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1494
Reg: 10-2005
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Cruise control and throttle control are different as a driver you use both brake and throttle at once it would be huge pain if the moment you touch the brake pedal whilst on the throttle the power dies suddenly.
But that isn't related to the issue, there is a mechanical failure of the mechanical throttle body where by the throttle is stuck at WOT.
Regardless of the electric motor trying to return to zero throttle position it is unable to as I understand the fault.
That being said even if this situation (mechanical failure stuck at WOT) occurs there should be fail safe options ie shutting down the engine shifting to neutral ect.
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Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 47
Reg: 03-2010
|
and furthermore, it should be common knowledge that you put the car in neutral or shut off the engine if this occurs. public adverts, PSA's, in the owners manual in bold font on the front page etc. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1495
Reg: 10-2005
|
Lucas Waterworth wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 04:33 pm: it should be common knowledge that you put the car in neutral or shut off the engine if this occurs
It should be part of the driving test. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2429
Reg: 08-2005
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Damian, the cop's passenger was on the phone to the fuzz for at least a minute. They tried everything they could think of in that situation. Neutral, brakes, e brake, tried to turn it off. I am willing to believe that a cop represents at a very minimum what you would consider a reasonably average driver. It was not his regular car; it was a dealership loaner. In my mind a reasonable person assumes that our average skilled driver put in that position should be able to operate the product. If he can't, it is the fault of the product. That is a reasonable assumption and that is usually the test in negligence cases.
Peter is spot on. Gas + hard brakes in drive by wire should = brakes. That's one failure. Not being able to throw a car in neutral when you want. That's another failure. A licenced and at least average skilled driver not being able to figure out how to turn the car off. That's a third failure. Defective gas pedal? I don't really see that as being a negligence issue. It's a product defect but it should not have been allowed to escalate to a safety issue. They failed to design their product to operate as a reasonable person assumes it should. That is, have some kind of escape from a simple stuck throttle, and an escape that would occur to a reasonable person given their training and knowledge of car operation. Stuck throttles are so common they are listed in most driver's ed books and many car manuals. They can happen for all sorts of reasons. The warnings are there and the training is given because the people who designed that documentation DID think ahead. They realised components fail and people need to have the resources to get out of that situation. Toyota did not do that.
Damian Ware wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:17 pm:I don't buy that there are plenty of people which have no clue how there cars work, or what to do when things go wrong.
Neither do I nor was that my conjecture. In fact quite the opposite. I believe many of these people knew what to do but Toyota failed to make those options available. They could not put the car in neutral. They could not turn the car off.
Toyota put them in a dangerous situation with their defective pedal and poorly designed drive by wire software, then also failed to give them a way out of that situation. Failures all over the place but in my mind the least serious is actually the pedal. Pedals fail, always have. The full size Chevrolets in the 50s were well known for sticking throttles (as mine did). With engine mounts on the front of the block, full throttle twists the motor. Put a bit of wear into all the components and you've got a recipe for a stuck throttle (rod linkage not cable). They were well known for it but people well knew what to do. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1496
Reg: 10-2005
|
Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 04:59 pm:Damian, the cop's passenger was on the phone to the fuzz for at least a minute. They tried everything they could think of in that situation. Neutral, brakes, e brake, tried to turn it off. I am willing to believe that a cop represents at a very minimum what you would consider a reasonably average driver. It was not his regular car; it was a dealership loaner.
I think we both agree I am just trying to confirm beyond a doubt that it isn't possible to select neutral or to shut down the engine whist driving.
The most concerning part is they had time to call 911.
Similarly the same situation for the Ford the driver couldn't stop the car but had time to call 000 and police had time to clear the road. I would assume they have tried everything to stop the car select neutral switching off ect.
From what I have read not confirmed just internet postings the Lexus/Toyotas could have the engines switched off whilst driving but it required pushing and holding the start stop button for a period of time. Exactly how and how long the button must be pushed I don't know but I have read it can be done.
Neutral I am not sure about sure about hence my question.
I am amazed applying the brakes hard isn't enough to stop the car as I know with my own car I cannot out accellerate the brakes ie under WOT apply the brakes and the car slows down. I would have thought this would be a minimum requirement that the brakes are more powerfull than the engine.
As to drive by wire I don't like it, it is fitted to the pulsar and IMO it doesn't provide the resolution I can achieve with a cable, perfect example is the minimal throttle open under no load increases the RPM too much and under light load it is noticeable just compared with cable throttle. Sure not a big deal but it is just a annoying that I cant be in completly seamless control of the engine, and power output. |
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