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Message |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2313
Reg: 09-2007
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whats frustrating is they do 1000+hp with a 2jz, but they skimp out on the 5.0l v10. |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1069
Reg: 01-2008
|
Miles Baker wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 09:55 am:What's your point?
Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 09:47 pm, by: Sebastian Grant (Saabg)
To be fair Miles the viper came with semi slick tyres, no stereo and next to no sound deadening. It's leaning more towards being a track car than a road car.
Miles Baker wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 09:55 am:Firstly you haven't come close to showing any evidence the LFA isn't wearing similar tyres on the ring, which it probably is seeing as the N-ring edition wears "track rubber" which I don't believe is even street legal like the ACR's rubber.
Nor have you shown any evidence that it isn't wearing road tyres so who's trying to chase little caveats?
Miles Baker wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 09:55 am:trying to salvage a win for your fanboy crush on the LFA
Maybe you should read the thread before commenting Miles. I said myself that I'd rather have a modified GTR for the money any day of the week.
My only problem with comparing the ACR and the LFA is that I don't see the ACR as a proper road car with its high spring rates, semi slick tyres, no stereo etc. I know that will not be a problem for many but I know which car I'd rather be in on the road and I wonder how well it would handle on anything other than a race track.
Miles Baker wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 09:55 am:Noone gives a sh1t what your car does in the rain.
You do if you plan on driving your car on the road, that Viper would be a death trap.
It's pretty obvious the LFA is aimed at a different market than the ACR. |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1070
Reg: 01-2008
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Ali Saeed wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 11:04 am:whats frustrating is they do 1000+hp with a 2jz, but they skimp out on the 5.0l v10
Come on Ali. Track cars require response, not outright power although it does help. Not to mention the 1000hp 2js are hardly what you'd call reliable by manufacturers standards. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2315
Reg: 09-2007
|
i dont think responsiveness would be a factor at all. you can slap 2 decent sized turbos on the v10 and have it responsive as hell. besides on a track turbos would almost always be spooled anyway. launch control would take care of stand still starts...with a 5.0l engine you would be seeing quite a bit of boost down low. ive read about a guy running a 800rwhp unopened 2jz for well over 3 years, quite reliably. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 58
Reg: 03-2010
|
it is stupid to compare an lf-a to either the viper or the gt-r, the viper is a track car that happens to be road legal, and the gt-r is a fraction of the price. compare it to other cars in it's price band that have all the mod-con's, such as ferrari, porsche, lambo etc. |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1071
Reg: 01-2008
|
Ali Saeed wrote on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 01:40 pm: ive read about a guy running a 800rwhp unopened 2jz for well over 3 years, quite reliably.
For every one guy that can make a claim like that there is 50 others whos cars have shat themselves a long time ago.
If they were to decide it needed more ponies they should do it with more displacement. A 6L version would net them just off 700hp in theory and still be super responsive and very light weight.
Lucas, I'm glad someone else gets it. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2319
Reg: 09-2007
|
what 2jz supra have you hear •••••••• itself? ever heard of a 1uz •••••••• itself? dude these are 20 year old design engines. the lfa's engine is new. would have lighter and stronger internals. could easily rack up the miles if required. but no ones going to drive that car for more than a 2-3000km a year. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2474
Reg: 08-2005
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Let's back this train up a minute Sebastian.
Firstly you are the one spreading rumours that the LFA is doing laps on hard street rubber. No cars at the top of the ring lap time list do. They all run soft compound semi slicks. There is no chance the LFA would be anywhere near the top without them. You made the claim. You back it up. It's well known that noone does those laps on pure street rubber.
Then you base your claim that the LFA handles better in the wet on your other claim that it is wearing street rubber. And to that I firstly do not agree, because the LFA is running the same sort of tyres. And secondly because the Viper handles just fine in the wet as evidenced by its racing history in the wet. And have you ever even driven these tyres to know that street rubber would handle better than the soft tyres in the wet? No. More speculation.
Now you claim that the Lexus wins because it has a stereo and that means the Viper is disqualified. Hello. This is the SUPERCAR market. Welcome to Lexus's screw up. Are we talking supercars here or luxury cars? Oh you want a stereo and seat massagers and heat insulation? I thought we were trying to go fast. Welcome to supercars. News flash, you don't buy a supercar to listen to the stereo. You buy one to go balls out fast. This is why Lexus loses. You want some car with soft springs and a nice stereo and blah blah blah. Well chief this isn't the thread for you.
May I also point out that the ZR1 has all those things you mentioned, pulls the same time as the (claimed) LFA time, costs about a quarter, and is also mostly "stone age" technology. Lexus. Still. Suck at this.
The Viper is not a track car that "happens to be road legal". It is a regular production car. There are *tens of thousands* driven on the streets. It is not a Radical or a go kart. You people have shocking sour grapes. "Oh if we can't beat it, it cheated". It has perfect street manners. It has a proper warranty, all the mod cons, proper ground clearance, a dealer network. It sells for under $90k. Go to Dodge's site and check out the price and feature list. You want to talk cars that aren't real cars? The LFA has a production limit of 500. 500 vs what.. 30,000 Vipers sold to date?
Get over it. They built it to be the fastest production car on a track. They achieved it. Lexus set out to do...???? And they achieved..... uh.... a big price tag. The LFA is not the speed it should be for the price and the investment Lexus made. It is a failure. They have achieved nothing. They can't even beat pushrod steel framed dinosaurs. |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1073
Reg: 01-2008
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If it is a well known fact that all cars run semi slicks then why did Porsche kick up such a stink claiming that the GTR was running them, which they weren't? I'm not spreading rumours, there's just no evidence to support your claim that Lexus was running anything other than what you get from the factory.
Now I'm not saying the ACR won't handle well in the wet, I'm saying it won't grip well in the wet which is quite obviously the case when the manufacturers themselves warn you not to run them in wet conditions.
As for what you think a supercar should be well that's just your opinion. Lambos, Ferraris, Mercs, Porsches (barring the gt3 rs) all come with ac and a stereo and can be driven on the road in comfort. This is what people who can afford them want, it may not be what you or I want but we aren't the people buying them.
You're bang on about the ZR1 though, that's a proper road car with all the creature comforts and ridiculous performance for the money.
How did Lexus fail when they have sold all 500 cars? Going by your rational, Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Pagani, Aston Martin, Mercedes, Bugatti, McLaren etc have all failed because they aren't as quick around the Nurburgring as the Viper??? Please. Anyone of these manufacturers could build a car quicker than the Viper but that is not the sole purpose of a modern day supercar. Let's be honest here. 99% of all super cars are bought for their wank factor, not for how fast they go around a track. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2475
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They didn't set out to beat the viper. They don't need to. They already have pedigree and a justification for a high price tag. Lexus does not. It's just a really expensive Toyota that isn't the fastest. Just like Toyota saying they would win F1. Where'd that claim go?
If you ever can, go look at an ACR. It is a road car. Your pathetic excuse of itneeding a stereo doesn't fly. There are plenty of Euro cars that have had stereo delete options. How pathetic. Claiming that the presence of a stereo is some kind of deciding factor for anything. Porsche were upset because Nissan did not use street LEGAL rubber. |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1074
Reg: 01-2008
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Got a copy of the LFAs mission statement have we? If so please post it up. The justification for the really expensive price tag is that it's quicker than the similar priced Ferrari, Lamborghini, Zonda etc. Pagani don't have "pedigree" but they still sell slower cars than the LFA at a similar or more expensive price tag so your lack of "pedigree" argument doesn't really have much merit.
No, Porsche didn't believe that Nissan could have achieved the time they did on the standard tyres. The reason why they came to this conclusion is because Porsches chief engineer couldn't repeat the same lap times as Nissans racing driver. Anyone with half a brain can see the problem with that. In response to the stupid claims from Porsche, Nissan posted photos on the net of the tyres that were used.
Why do you care if it's just a really expensive toyota? If Daewoo were to start making the best supercars would you not want one simply because it has a Daewoo badge on it? I didn't realise Richard Hammond was such a poser until he made that comment about how driving around in a 300,000 pound Lexus was embarrassing. Whats embarrassing is how Ferrari have been making supercars for ever and Lexus make a better car on their first attempt.
I think their goal has been achieved as Lexus have a great car to use in their advertising campaign to raise their profile. They have sold all 500 units, even the 50 Nurburgring editions with the extra 70,000 pound price tag so I guess they aren't too expensive after all. As far as I know they now own the machine that produces the carbon fibre weave so the next car they make should be cheaper and they have shown that they can mix it up with the big boys like Ferrari and Lamborghini on a track and on the showroom. Not a bad effort on their first attempt in my books.
Here's a better list of the Nurburgring times.
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID=0&gID=3&tID=10073&viewThread=y |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
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Yeah it goes something like this:
"We here at Toyota decided a few years ago to make our only racing focus winning Formula 1. Well we completely hosed that and didn't win a damn thing. Of course it was the fault of our crappy drivers or something. Anyway, we've kind of forgotten about that whole debacle recently and have now started thinking about racing at Nurburgring, and carrying on about being the fastest around the Nurburgring, and naming 10% of our production run of our "supercar" after the Nurburgring. Oh but we're doing it under our Lexus badge so we're still dedicated to F1, we're not hypocrites at all. So we're going to make a car that's more expensive than everyone else's. And it doesn't go the fastest at the Nurburgring. It won't even race at the highest class. And it won't have the kind of power levels people will expect from a $500k car. But it will have stupid stuff like an electronic tacho, because that's what's important. But don't worry, we'll be sure to put a frickin stereo in it. Hang on, someone's on the phone complaining about a stuck throttle. Sounds like user error to us. Maybe a floor mat problem. Gotta go." |
Sebastian Grant
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nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1077
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Bugatti Veyron $1,700,000 Nurburgring lap time 7m40s
Lamborghini Reventon $1,600,000 Nurburgring lap time 7m43s
Ferrari Enzo $670,000 Nurburgring lap time 7m25s
Koenigsegg CCX $545,568 Nurburgring lap time 7m33s
Pagani Zonda F $650,000 Nurburgring lap time 7m33s
Porsche Carrera GT $440,000 Nurburbring lap time 7m28s
Lexus LFA $390,000 Nurburgring ring lap time 7m24s
It doesn't seem to bad when you look at it like that now does it. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1516
Reg: 10-2005
|
LFA = Luxary Supercar probably very nice ultra refined and great to drive on the street.
Viper = Road legal race car they are not nice to drive on the street.
ZR1 = Affordably Lux Supercar very good bang for buck and nice to drive on the street can be used as a daily driver.
Both have there place and as per the above list the LFA fits in well.
IMO the LFA could have used a little more HP.
I believe the Ring lap times are required to be completed as the car is factory delievered included the exact tyres supplied from factory.
As to Porsche claims, it was not the engineers driving the GTR, they had there one of there expert "best in the world" race car drivers behind the wheel of GTR.
There is a lot of BS on the net abot this but if I recall correctly the truth is something along the lines of different tyres being supplied from factory depending on where the GTR was delievered and one of those is/was just about a semi slick with a bit more tread. I cant remember the model number. |
Miles Baker
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Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2477
Reg: 08-2005
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Driven a Viper Damian?
I have. It was fine. Nice torquey motor as you'd expect. Easy to get off the line and putter along at legal speeds. No real need to change gears much either due to tons of torque everywhere. T56 transmission just like a dozen other cars from Monaros to Mustangs to Aston Martins. Good steering feel. Great brakes. Probably a lot nicer to drive than most of the other "supercars" with peaky cammy motors, touchy heavy clutches etc. The American market simply will not support a mass produced car that can not be driven.
Exactly what did you find so hard to drive about the Viper? I thoroughly enjoyed every second and except for the $45k conversion cost I would have bought one years ago. I would not hesitate to daily drive it. Perfect street manners.
Sebastian
Dodge Viper $95k 7:22
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 $105k 7:24
Looks pretty crap now. This is my point. Why pay so much for a car that can't even beat mass produced dinosaurs? For the privilege of never being able to get parts? |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2343
Reg: 09-2007
|
the more i think about the LFA, the less im impressed by it. what the hell were they doing for 10 years? shouldve just revived the supra. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2480
Reg: 08-2005
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Spot on. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
2.5tt auto
Posts: 59
Reg: 03-2010
|
Ali Saeed wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 01:03 am:the more i think about the LFA, the less im impressed by it. what the hell were they doing for 10 years? shouldve just revived the supra
because, while i hope they do this, the Lf-A, like many other cars, the veyron being an example, was as much a test bed as it was a car. it was built to show off their fancy, super light f-1 based motor, their carbon fibre body, their awesome brakes, etc. it was a chance to try out some new tech that will no doubt find it's way into regular cars, and to draw some attention to the lexus brand.
and for those laughing at the power to displacement ratio of the engine, remember it weighs less and no doubt has a better power to weight ratio than a V6 of half the displacement. if they wanted to make insane amounts of power, they would have had to make it heavier, slower revving, etc.
and the dash? come on, this is lexus after all, they could have given the soarer a regular dash too |
Ben Kelly
DieHard
Lakemba
v8
Posts: 760
Reg: 08-2005
|
didnt bother looking at this vid before but id say it looks like some kinda weird japanese lambo...but in a good way...that is, in a way thats not typical of the japanese they have registered an appreciation of european styling and implemented accordingly. Dont care too much about the figures...does anyone who buys a 'supercar'? |
Miles Baker
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Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2483
Reg: 08-2005
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Uh yeah, the figures are kinda the point. Everyone I know with Ferraris, Porsches or Lamborghinis can tell you the exact weight and power stats of their cars.. |
Miles Baker
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Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2484
Reg: 08-2005
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Lucas Waterworth wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 04:39 pm:and for those laughing at the power to displacement ratio of the engine, remember it weighs less and no doubt has a better power to weight ratio than a V6 of half the displacement
OK so the motor has a decent power to weight number. But the car as a whole is nothing special. And power to displacement it's only 50% better than a RAV4 motor. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1517
Reg: 10-2005
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Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 11:32 pm:Driven a Viper Damian?
I have. It was fine. Nice torquey motor as you'd expect. Easy to get off the line and putter along at legal speeds. No real need to change gears much either due to tons of torque everywhere. T56 transmission just like a dozen other cars from Monaros to Mustangs to Aston Martins. Good steering feel. Great brakes. Probably a lot nicer to drive than most of the other "supercars" with peaky cammy motors, touchy heavy clutches etc. The American market simply will not support a mass produced car that can not be driven.
I have posted before on this, no I haven't driven a Viper but I know someone who has very similar ideas about cars who has and I posted about it and after driving a Viper as a daily decided to update his Z06 to a ZR1 (he was planning to get a Viper but decided he couldn't live with it).
It is not a nice daily driver not even close I highly doubt I could live with it as a daily driver and I am surprised that you could.
Miles Baker wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 06:16 pm:OK so the motor has a decent power to weight number. But the car as a whole is nothing special. And power to displacement it's only 50% better than a RAV4 motor.
50% change for a internal combustion motor is huge typically changes are on a much smaller scale. The Rav 4 3sge gen 4 motor has a good power to weight one of the best 4 cylinders available. |
Ali Saeed
Goo Roo
WA
UZZ31
Posts: 2348
Reg: 09-2007
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i love my rav4  revs so nicely.
it shouldnt take 10 years and 100s of millions to make a test bed car. they must work very very slow in japan |
Sebastian Grant
Goo Roo
nsw
soarer TT
Posts: 1082
Reg: 01-2008
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Miles Baker wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 06:12 pm:Uh yeah, the figures are kinda the point.
The figures are in.
Lamborghini Reventon 7m43
Bugatti Veyron 7m40
Pagani Zonda 7m33
Lexus LFA 7m24
The funny thing about the idiots on Top Gear is that they told you why this car was created but didn't realise it themselves. Most people see Lexus as a company that makes boring luxury cars, not real good when you're trying to sell performance cars such as the ISF. So the easy way to change the brand perception of Lexus is to go out and make a expensive supercar and advertise the sh1t out of it so that when people think Lexus, they don't think about the gs300 grandpa drives to work on Sunday. They think about the LFA that's quicker than the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani and Bugatti around the Nurburgring. It is all about changing the public perception of the Lexus brand. Now when Joe Blo is deciding wether or not to buy an ISF he may not see it as just a suped up IS250 but as a car that wears the same badge as one of the fastest supercars in the world. This may sound ridiculous to some but psychological mind games are played on us by marketing companies all the time, we just don't realise it. |
Sebastian Grant
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nsw
soarer TT
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Miles Baker wrote on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 11:32 pm:Why pay so much for a car that can't even beat mass produced dinosaurs? For the privilege of never being able to get parts?
But people do it all the time, some of them apparently your friends when they buy a Bugatti/ Ferrari/Lamborghini/Mercedes and now Lexus. I don't understand why you keep singling out the LFA as the only supposedly stupid pointless super car, they are all in the same boat. They ALL cost more and they ALL are slower than the ACR, the only difference is the LFA is closest in price and performance to the ACR.
Ali Saeed wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 01:03 am:shouldve just revived the supra.
I don't think they have it in them, the Supra was such a good looking car I doubt they could make a more modern version look any good. Same goes for the RX7. |
Miles Baker
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Vic
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Sebastian you are picking and choosing the cars you put on your list. Talk yourself into it being an advertising campaign, whatever you want. We are talking about performance here. You can't change the narrative just so you can have a win.
The point is Lexus harped on about the Nurburgring. You lot harp on about OH MY GOD THE TECHNOLOGY in the LFA. Well, put up or shut up. The technology fails to beat the old stuff. Pick and choose your competition how you like, the fact is the can not beat everyone like they set out to. They crap on about their technology but what good is it?
Sure you can buy it as an expensive supercar toy, like a Lamborghini. But why would you? At least a Lamborghini has its name to fall back on when it can't win. The LFA doesn't even have that. When you make one of these cars, you have to win at SOMETHING. And Lexus wins at nothing with this. I am singling out the Lexus because it fails at its goal of breaking into the club. It doesn't have a name so it needed to make a name for itself. It's an also-ran.
Damian again you have just stated that the Viper is not a decent daily driver but have not come up with a reason why. The cars that I have driven that I would consider track cars which should not be on the road share very little with the Viper. Like I said, it has good part throttle and low RPM torque. Track cars are all top end and no bumper-to-bumper manners. It's easy to get in and out of, it has a clutch that's perfectly easy to operate - not an on/off affair that requires huge leg muscles. There is a wide spread of usable RPM. It's not overly loud at all. Visibility out of it was quite decent though I am tall. The steering was excellent. Brakes are very good and don't need to be warmed up. Suspension is firm but we're talking about sports cars here.. probably not as harsh as an M3. It has mirrors you can see out of. You can even get some stuff in the hatch area at the back. The Corvette certainly is a car built to a higher standard, and that includes comfort. But that's always been Mopar... a bit rough around the edges but a little more radical. Ground clearance is not fantastic at all in the Viper, with its long nose. But again, all of these sports cars suffer the same problem, and there are novel roller accessory guards available to protect the front from steep driveways. |
Miles Baker
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I was talking about the aurion v6 in the rav4. 50% is ok but not for brazilians of dollars and ten years. They're only making a bit over 100hp per litre which I have seen any number of people build for 10 grand. Not as long lasting maybe but hey. Also bike motors routinely make more power per cc. The light high revving v10 seems to have more in common with them. But less power per litre. |
Ali Saeed
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the LFA should have done what Pagani did with the Zonda. yes it was a ridiculously expensive car, looked..funky(quite fugly to be honest) but it beat everyone at that point in time. |
Lucas Waterworth
Tinkerer
north island, nz
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Ali Saeed wrote on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 02:11 am:the LFA should have done what Pagani did with the Zonda. yes it was a ridiculously expensive car, looked..funky(quite fugly to be honest) but it beat everyone at that point in time.
no, they shouldn't have. they built a comfortable car with all the mod cons that can be driven in comfort every day, and made it handle well, as shown by it's time on the nuburgring. it is faster where it matters than supercars worth millions of dollars, is comfortable, looks awesome, etc. raw power is for wank factor, handling is where you have fun.
Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 12:18 am:They're only making a bit over 100hp per litre which I have seen any number of people build for 10 grand. Not as long lasting maybe but hey. Also bike motors routinely make more power per cc. The light high revving v10 seems to have more in common with them. But less power per litre.
are you seriously comparing a bike motor that revvs at close to 20,000 rpm on some machines, at displacements around the litre mark, to a 5L car engine? smaller engines make better PTD ratios, so what? I have a car that could trump any bike engine's power to weight ratio, it is radio controlled, fueled by nitromethane, and can be picked up by one finger. and I would like to see one of those ten grand motors last for 300,000 odd kilometres, like this engine no doubt could? |
Matthew Sharpe
Goo Roo
North Island
JZZ31
Posts: 5542
Reg: 10-2005
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I think I'd take the LF-A just because I wouldn't be so embarrased driving a car with a 4.5 litre engine as I would driving a car with a 8.4 litre engine. Sure the $300K difference in price is WAY more than you would ever spend on petrol for either car in a lifetime (or even both), but these days you can't be seen to be overtly consuming. I guess a lot of people wouldn't give a damn what other thought, fair enough.
The point of the new technology is to do more (ok, or "similar") with less. When you look at the figures it might not make any sense, but its all about perception I guess. And of course the build standards are totally different - Vipers, at least the couple I've ever had a close look at, look like they were put together by trained monkeys. Granted, again with $300K left in your wallet you could pull the whole car down and put it back together properly several times over I guess, and still have 20 years worth of petrol money.
Of course having neither $100K or $400K to spend on a car, I'll never own either. |
Miles Baker
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For starters wise arse (Lucas), plenty of 600+hp 5.7L LS1s are lasting north of 200,000km though I clearly stated that longevity would not be expected as for the Lexus (though it has not done 200,000km itself has it?)
The LFA has a 10,000 rpm tacho and 9,500 fuel cut. The engine is extremely light. It has relatively small cylinders. The Hayabusa has a 197hp lightweight 1.4L 4 cylinder engine redlining at what 11,000? There are V8s based on 2 Hayabusa engines making 400hp at 2.8L with a 10,000 redline. Sounds a little familiar to me.
Show me your litre bike revving to 20,000 rpm. Maybe a 250 but that's about it for 20,000rpm.
The LFA has 10 480cc cylinders. The Hayabusa has 4 350cc cylinders. Pretty close. V twin bikes have 500+cc cylinders and have been making well past 100hp per litre for about the last 15 years.
The aforementioned LS1 has 8 712cc cylinders and is making at least 105hp/litre with pushrods, a lower redline etc. The LFA's V10 manages only 115hp/litre even with its smaller cylinders, much higher expense and redline etc.
If you don't believe me go read up on the LSx motors. Head, cam, exhaust, intake and you've got 600+hp and reasonably good longevity for a very very low price. Pushed hard they have made toward 700hp. Even an old school small block chev could make 600hp from 5.7L and hang together for 100,000km if treated well. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2488
Reg: 08-2005
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I doubt the LFA uses any less fuel than the Viper for the same performance Matthew. All of these cars are incredibly inefficient when pushed. And no, green sh1t has no place in the supercar mindset.
The early Vipers were not a fantastic fit and finish from the factory, but like you say, at a price we pay for an expensive Commodore what could you expect? Remember also that if the cars you saw were RHD converted, they could have been butchered by anyone. Viperformance here do a very good job (for $40k). Or like you say, for a fistful of cash there are any number of trimmers who do great jobs with the Viper. It's cheap for what it is. You can't get a free lunch. My point in bringing the Viper up was not to compare every aspect to the LFA. My point was to say that even a rough old dinosaur designed by guys with pen and paper still beats Lexus's claimed engineering marvel, and that's not good enough. After 10 years the Lexus should blow everything else out of the water. It does not. Even an old tube frame pushrod sledgehammer keeps up and even beats it. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2489
Reg: 08-2005
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Plus the front end looks like pikachu. |
Damian Ware
Goo Roo
Victoria
UZZ32
Posts: 1518
Reg: 10-2005
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Miles Baker wrote on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 11:32 pm:Damian again you have just stated that the Viper is not a decent daily driver but have not come up with a reason why. The cars that I have driven that I would consider track cars which should not be on the road share very little with the Viper. Like I said, it has good part throttle and low RPM torque. Track cars are all top end and no bumper-to-bumper manners. It's easy to get in and out of, it has a clutch that's perfectly easy to operate - not an on/off affair that requires huge leg muscles. There is a wide spread of usable RPM. It's not overly loud at all. Visibility out of it was quite decent though I am tall. The steering was excellent. Brakes are very good and don't need to be warmed up. Suspension is firm but we're talking about sports cars here.. probably not as harsh as an M3. It has mirrors you can see out of. You can even get some stuff in the hatch area at the back. The Corvette certainly is a car built to a higher standard, and that includes comfort. But that's always been Mopar... a bit rough around the edges but a little more radical. Ground clearance is not fantastic at all in the Viper, with its long nose. But again, all of these sports cars suffer the same problem, and there are novel roller accessory guards available to protect the front from steep driveways.
Miles I have posted on this topic before my a work associates direct personal experience, the posts were on this forum and I think you were involved in the discussion.
If you think the Viper is a fine daily driver that is up to you but most people do not.
Sure some people will drive cars daily which are horrible IMO, example M6 with factory fitted 21" rims rubber band tyres owned by a neighbough, horrid to drive harsh bumpy, noisy rattly and I couldn't live with it yet he drives it every day to work and back.
Lotus Elise similar harsh stiff, noisy rattly creaky chassi yet some people drive them to work and back.
Miles Baker wrote on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 12:18 am:I was talking about the aurion v6 in the rav4. 50% is ok but not for brazilians of dollars and ten years. They're only making a bit over 100hp per litre which I have seen any number of people build for 10 grand. Not as long lasting maybe but hey. Also bike motors routinely make more power per cc. The light high revving v10 seems to have more in common with them. But less power per litre.
And how long will they last is the question.
My brothers bike has exceptional HP but the motor is suggested in the factory manual to be pulled down for a freshed up every 5,000 to 10,000km. I guess having a insane HP per lt and 23,000rpm rev limit does that.
As to LFA vs Viper on the track I would like to see a comparison with the Viper detuned to provide equal power to weight. |
Miles Baker
Goo Roo
Vic
66 Mustang GT Convertible, 55 Chevy Bel Air, 69 Firebird 455, 69 Nova SS Clone, 65 Mustang Fastback, 67 Mustang Convertible, 67 Camaro RS/SS
Posts: 2490
Reg: 08-2005
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The Viper and LFA do have very similar power to weight.
Hardcore ACR 1510kg 600hp 397hp/tonne
LFA 1480kg 552hp 373hp/tonne
Not sure what bike your brother is riding.. probably a dirtbike? 4 cylinder road bikes are mostly good well past 100,000 km with only normal maintenance. Hayabusas are clearing 100k miles. And they're built on a pretty darn tight budget. Plenty of guys on bike forums I'm on are well past 100k miles with decent treatment. Some models are better than others.
Again with this 20k+ rpm quote. What kind of bike? |
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