Miles Baker wrote on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:27 pm:Damian,
A 250 is not what I am talking about. The CBR250 requires valve clearance checks about every 10k, but not a rebuild. Litre bikes and beyond are certainly more robust, have similar engine speed ranges to the LFA, and make considerably higher hp per litre. They are what I was talking about. See above for my discussion of engine size, power and lifetime.
The ACR is only a suspension and aero package. No engine changes. In the 90s, the ACR was an extra 10 or so hp, but since they have gone to the 600hp engine, all road models are 600hp.
Regarding the Viper being a "street legal race car", I do not remember our last conversation, but I still do not agree. Perhaps we have differing opinions of what a street legal race car is. I classify things like the Radical and the semi open wheel kit cars. The Viper I do not. It has a well appointed interior and a list of mod cons that befits a road car. It was not built for track use. Indeed for the first 4 years there was only a roadster. The track suspension pack (ACR) is an option that you pay extra for. Sure it may not be the best quality ride, but it is a sports car and it is cheap. It doesn't mean it is a street legal race car, it just means it isn't a very good car. I never said it was. It is full weight, not some stripped down carbon fibre 1 tonne bucket of chassis members and roll cage bars. It is a street car. Sure it's not the most comfortable in its class, but it is about the cheapest. It also happens to be the fastest around the ring.
Street legal race cars have engines that misbehave on the street. The Viper can be idled up the road in any gear just fine. Ever driven a car with a 10,000 rpm redline that revs to that in half a second? To me the LFA engine sounds like a potential nightmare. I've driven cars with lightened motors, lightened flywheels etc and it was not much fun getting off the line without a cloud of smoke. I bet Lexus does a good job of covering it up, but my point is the Viper is a street car. It doesn't have to worry about this. Also, Viper newer than about 2001 started coming without a spare tyre - they have awful run flats. This could be why your neighbour had a bad ride. Again, not a sign of a street legal race car, just not a very good car. I never said the Viper was well designed, well built, anything. It's a Dodge. Dodge are dodgy.
Sebastian,
my point that you had not listed all of the cars was in response to the blatant omission of the two street production cars that are as fast or faster than the LFA. My further point is that both of those cars are far cheaper and far older technology than the LFA. This is the crux of my entire presence in this thread. I am not saying the Viper is some great almighty supercar. I am saying that Toyota have been crapping on about the technology in the LFA and on and on about the Nurburgring, and have failed to beat a couple of old pushrod motors, one in a decades old chassis.
Aiden,
it seems you are the one who has just run your finger down that list and selected strawman, and failed to understand what that means. How can I argue "as a straw man does"? That is not the point of the metaphor of a straw man in the colloquial name for reductio ad absurdum. A straw man can not argue anything, chief. He is made of straw. The metaphor is that you build your opponent's argument into something it is only superficially similar to, but is easily defeatable. The straw man is an effigy of your opponent. He looks like a human but you can knock him down much easier. Please show me where I have reduced any argument to an absurd, superficially similar argument. Please also enlighten me how I can "argue as a straw man does". If you're going to try to appear intellectual, at least do a good job of learning what you are trying to say first.
Again.
My argument here is not that the Viper is super fantastic. My argument is that Lexus have failed to do what they rubbished on about for the last ten years. The Viper is just an example of what they have failed to beat. They have been carrying on about the Nurburgring and have not conquered it. I am not saying the LFA is not a good car. I am sure it is wonderfully comfortable and all sorts of fantastic. I bet it has an awesome stereo and super cool instruments. But they did crap on about being the fastest on the ring, and have not achieved. To me, their car looks all good except it just doesn't have enough power. And that's a pretty stupid thing to fail on when making your first supercar. My question is why did they not just make their V10 6 litres instead of under 5? 700hp would have easily given them the fastest time ever.
This is Lexus's first foray into the supercar market. They have produced a very good car, but it is not going to establish them a legacy. If it devoured all opposition on the ring, they would have something to hang their hat on. What you have is a very expensive car that is very good. But in that market, a car has to OWN something. It may be the fastest or most powerful. Like the Viper or the Veyron or the Mclaren F1. It may be the most wild looking, like the Pagani or a Lamborghini or the Viper in its day. But what does the Lexus have? It's the most comfortable? Big deal. In a world of cars you buy to make people go OHMYGOD when you drive past, the Lexus does not. That is what Top Gear were saying. A Ferrari or Lamborghini can exist on just being a Ferrari or Lamborghini. A Ford GT can exist on being a remake of the GT40. The Lexus is just a very good car but it does not wow many people.. except those who you drive past and they say "you know that car has some excellent technology". Big deal. They have failed to achieve a noteworthy superlative.
Supercars are not really about quality or comfort. Lamborghinis break down and catch fire and you can't see out of them. The Countach is an awful car but a legendary supercar. I was at the docks recently and a guy was picking up his second 86 Countach. To drive? Of course not. He collects them to look at. Supercars are about an impression. Most of them achieve their impression through absolute performance. Others do it with wild styling AND a heritage of performance. The Lexus has no heritage.
And for those moaning about the Hardcore ACR not having a stereo, get over it. The Hardcore package saves a whopping 30kg. It is mostly a throwback to the old Mopar products from the 60s. It was a silly option available in the time when the American auto makers were releasing cars with any stupid extra option they could to convince boy racers that they had the newest most extreme sports car. Well, those guys are now buying $100k cars and they like to see the old options.
There are dozens of these "option packages" that old muscle cars could have, and the super rare combinations are now fetching huge bucks at the auctions because they are rare. Well, that is why Dodge made the Hardcore Package. Because old muscle car guys are sentimental. Stupid stuff, but rare and people like it there. When the Mustang came out with hood pins instead of a hood latch, Mopar then replaced their hood hinges and latch with 4 hood pins. That was an option. And people bought it. Why? It didn't help performance but it was something extra. That is what the Hardcore package is about. 30kg. Big deal.
It is also unclear whether the weights published are wet or dry. If dry, I bet the Viper has a hell of a lot more fluids in that V10 which would bring half the 30kg back.
Ben,
Yes I completely agree that performance is not the only consideration. But Lexus have been crapping on about it and have not delivered. That is the whole point of my posting. The heart of a supercar IS its performance, and they failed to get that right.
Regarding performance not being a factor in the cars I own, no it is not. But none of my cars are supercars that were made with an eye on the Nurburgring are they? Remember, Lexus built the LFA rubbishing on about the ring. They even made 10% of the production run with the name Nurburgring Edition. Why did they do that? So they could be equal second fastest around it? Pfffff.
Sebastian,
I bet there are guys with Vipers laughing that their sub $100k car is still on top. I certainly would. Are they bragging to guys with LFAs? Probably not because noone has a freakin LFA. They only made 500 and I bet three quarters of them never see the street.
Previous
